[Discussion] Trans Issues and Rights

This thread is for the discussion of current events relating to trans rights, for discussion of the lives of trans people and difficulties they face, and for basic questions about the lives and experiences of trans people. (If basic questions become dominant we'll look at making a Q&A thread at that time.)

OG_slinger wrote:

Saw this bit of depressing and rage-inducing local news:

In the same county Leelah Alcorn once called home, Warren County commissioners took steps to make sure gender reassignment surgery is not covered for county employees.

This seems to conflict -- if not directly violate -- the Affordable Care Act, which encourages carriers to cover gender reassignment surgery and other necessary medical procedures often sought by transgender people.

"I'm not making a moral judgment here," said County Commissioner David Young. "If someone wants to do that (gender reassignment surgery), that is between them and God. It's just not something I think taxpayers should be paying for."

Young and the other two Republican commissioners signed a letter on Tuesday directing UnitedHealthcare to remove gender dysphoria coverage from its plan. Young believes gender reassignment surgery is a choice and should be considered an elective procedure.

He remembers Alcorn, and calls her story a "tragic situation." It doesn't change his mind about what he thinks is another example of federal overreach.

Alcorn was born male. In 2014, the 17-year-old from Kings Mills killed herself by stepping in front of a truck on the highway near South Lebanon. Anguished words about gender identity and parental rejection filled the teenager's suicide note.

In the note, Alcorn pleaded for her death to mean something.

Her last line: "Fix society. Please."

Really gotta get out of Ohio.

edit: eh, too much of a tangent for this thread.

Oh, I know, I'm right on the border. Literally, the road to enter my subdivision is Butler-Warren.

Still, better than Clermont County.

Because of concerns about how laws and policies will change after the election, there are a lot of people right now donating time and money to get trans and other non-cis people name changes and gender changes on ID, or helping with getting passports (which can be easier to get with proper gender marker than state ID in some states). If you need such support, let me know and I'll reach out to put you in touch with people.

Hypatian wrote:

Because of concerns about how laws and policies will change after the election, there are a lot of people right now donating time and money to get trans and other non-cis people name changes and gender changes on ID, or helping with getting passports (which can be easier to get with proper gender marker than state ID in some states). If you need such support, let me know and I'll reach out to put you in touch with people.

If you know of orgs in other areas (I'm personally thinking about ways I can help more in my own town), I'd love to learn about them.

Someone put this up in another thread. A lot of options including LGBT.
http://jezebel.com/a-list-of-pro-wom...

Are you f*ckin' serious? You had to come into the trans rights thread to grind your axe? Get out of here with this.

MattDaddy wrote:

Since the election thread got shut down....

But by doing so, he's working under the assumption that a clump of cells is more important than a fully-formed adult. I believe that all demyx, freyja et al are asking us that he acknowledge that.


NO.
I'm not acknowledging that, because that's not what I'm saying. A clump of cells? Really? Is that what you see on an ultrasound where you can hear a beating heart? The LIFE of that child is more important to me than which bathroom anyone gets to use.

I'm not gloating about anything.

How is this not "I'm free to not care about trans people's basic human rights if they make me uncomfortable in a forums thread"?

How the f$ck do you get to that conclusion based on what I wrote? We're back to the "you voted Trump, so you don't care about my human rights and are a bigot" bullsh&t.

To say I hate or am ambivalent to trans people simply because I vote for Trump is incorrect. It's all or nothing. If I didn't vote Hillary I want trans people electroshocked to death. What a sad view to have or others. And this coming from a group that wants tolerance and acceptance.

When you vote for a clearly intolerant bigot, you don't get to demand tolerance or acceptance from the people you've endangered.

Karl Popper wrote:

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

John Rawls wrote:

While an intolerant sect does not itself have title to complain of intolerance, its freedom should be restricted only when the tolerant sincerely and with reason believe that their own security and that of the institutions of liberty are in danger

Winston Churchill wrote:

I decline utterly to be impartial between the fire brigade and the fire.

MattDaddy wrote:

Since the election thread got shut down....

But by doing so, he's working under the assumption that a clump of cells is more important than a fully-formed adult. I believe that all demyx, freyja et al are asking us that he acknowledge that.


NO.
I'm not acknowledging that, because that's not what I'm saying. A clump of cells? Really? Is that what you see on an ultrasound where you can hear a beating heart? The LIFE of that child is more important to me than which bathroom anyone gets to use.

I'm not gloating about anything.

How is this not "I'm free to not care about trans people's basic human rights if they make me uncomfortable in a forums thread"?

How the f$ck do you get to that conclusion based on what I wrote? We're back to the "you voted Trump, so you don't care about my human rights and are a bigot" bullsh&t.

To say I hate or am ambivalent to trans people simply because I vote for Trump is incorrect. It's all or nothing. If I didn't vote Hillary I want trans people electroshocked to death. What a sad view to have or others. And this coming from a group that wants tolerance and acceptance.

I don't think this is the proper thread for your anti-choice nonsense.

You have voted for the hatred of transgender people. You voted for their erasure and their death. At best your vote tells me that you are ambivalent.

Wanting tolerance and acceptance when you don't have it is a FAR FAR different thing then demanding that you get treated with deference from a group that you've just voted to destroy. Whether that vote comes from a place a of ambivalence or hatred doesn't matter, you are still putting people in harm's way and signalling quite clearly that you don't care about them. You don't get to demand their respect or their acceptance of your view.

MattDaddy wrote:

Since the election thread got shut down....

But by doing so, he's working under the assumption that a clump of cells is more important than a fully-formed adult. I believe that all demyx, freyja et al are asking us that he acknowledge that.


NO.
I'm not acknowledging that, because that's not what I'm saying. A clump of cells? Really? Is that what you see on an ultrasound where you can hear a beating heart? The LIFE of that child is more important to me than which bathroom anyone gets to use.

I'm not gloating about anything.

How is this not "I'm free to not care about trans people's basic human rights if they make me uncomfortable in a forums thread"?

How the f$ck do you get to that conclusion based on what I wrote? We're back to the "you voted Trump, so you don't care about my human rights and are a bigot" bullsh&t.

To say I hate or am ambivalent to trans people simply because I vote for Trump is incorrect. It's all or nothing. If I didn't vote Hillary I want trans people electroshocked to death. What a sad view to have or others. And this coming from a group that wants tolerance and acceptance.

This is completely off topic. For f*cks sake, have some decency.

As someone who grinded my own axe about people voting for Obama and other Democrats who were ambivalent to the wars and (until recently) only paid basic lip service to LGBT rights, I feel fully justified in saying to someone - You voted for Trump. You put your faith in him. Maybe you didn't do it because you felt he was a perfect choice, but "lesser of two evils" is not an acceptable shrug off when you are confronted about the consequences of your vote.

I'm less irritated about people voting for Trump, because I get it. I get that you can be so disillusioned with life and the process that anything sounds good. I understand feeling abandoned by the left or the Democrats or whomever. I really do understand that. But this insistence that someone voted for certain reasons and thus are above reproach regarding these issues is utter nonsense. This is not me saying "you voted for Trump, thus you're automatically a bigot" and hollering. This is me saying, "you voted for Trump, now be an adult and understand the fullness of your action rather than trying to hide from it."

edit: Let me put it another way. Trump himself may not have been beating the drum about transgender issues, but he just hired an entire drumline who will do so, and this cannot reasonably come as a surprise to anyone who voted for him. "I wanted to help end the corruption and show the Democrats we feel abandoned" and "I do feel bad about what's going to happen to trans rights" are not mutually exclusive ideas. You can't use one as a shield against the other.

I don't feel like I can mod this one, given that this is a thread I created and that my fiancée is involved.

But with my thread creator hat: this stuff is way out of scope for this thread, and needs to go somewhere else.

Hypatian wrote:

I don't feel like I can mod this one, given that this is a thread I created and that my fiancée is involved.

But with my thread creator hat: this stuff is way out of scope for this thread, and needs to go somewhere else.

Where? The election thread has been closed. I've been mis-represented and never had the opportunity to respond in there.

MattDaddy wrote:

I'm not acknowledging that, because that's not what I'm saying. A clump of cells? Really? Is that what you see on an ultrasound where you can hear a beating heart? The LIFE of that child is more important to me than which bathroom anyone gets to use.

And if that child grows up to be a transgender woman, is it okay for them to be shunned from public life because they can't use public bathrooms? Don't make the mistake of thinking it's about "which" bathroom they get to use because if we're not allowing transwomen to use women's bathrooms it doesn't make it safe for them to use men's bathrooms either.

Trans people are committing suicide over this. Their lives are important too.

How the f$ck do you get to that conclusion based on what I wrote? We're back to the "you voted Trump, so you don't care about my human rights and are a bigot" bullsh&t.

To say I hate or am ambivalent to trans people simply because I vote for Trump is incorrect. It's all or nothing. If I didn't vote Hillary I want trans people electroshocked to death. What a sad view to have or others. And this coming from a group that wants tolerance and acceptance.

You didn't vote for Trump for that reason, but that is a consequence of Trump coming to power. Live with that.

I have to live with the fact that voting for people like Obama meant that things like drone programs were going to continue, because I thought the alternative was worse. You have to live with the fact that trans people are going to be persecuted and die.

EDIT: Hypatian, I'll remove this if you think it's out of scope of the thread.

MattDaddy wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

I don't feel like I can mod this one, given that this is a thread I created and that my fiancée is involved.

But with my thread creator hat: this stuff is way out of scope for this thread, and needs to go somewhere else.

Where? The election thread has been closed. I've been mis-represented and never had the opportunity to respond in there.

Have you seen the 'Create New Topic' button?

"Since you're on the same side as all those baby murderers, I voted for the dudes that want to make your life a living hell" isn't really convincing me of your benevolence towards my cohort.

e: Create New Topic > This Tranny Was Mean To Me

MOD HAT

MattDaddy, you are so out of line right now. Your behavior in this post is disrespectful of your fellow GWJers. Even if you had posted in a respectful manner, this is the wrong place for it for so many, many reasons.

You are perilously close to a D&D ban.

Edit: I've created a more appropriate thread.

I've got documents to update and hormones to stockpile and an emergency wedding to plan so I'll probably be tardy showing up in the new thread.

Love y'all.

MOD HAT STILL ON

Freyja, I get it. This is super-personal, you're hurt, and you probably feel the need to lash out like the war goddess of your namesake. However, your past couple of comments went a tad over the line, so please take a deep breath and re-read before pressing "post."

Welp. I sent email to my doctor earlier today. Briefly:

Me wrote:

Recent events lead me to believe that I really need to get my Social Security record changed now, or I might not be able to in the future.

So, could I please ask you to write me a new letter attesting to my having received appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition?

My Doctor wrote:

You're the second request for this today-  sounds like a good idea.

Hypatian wrote:

Welp. I sent email to my doctor earlier today. Briefly:

Me wrote:

Recent events lead me to believe that I really need to get my Social Security record changed now, or I might not be able to in the future.

So, could I please ask you to write me a new letter attesting to my having received appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition?

My Doctor wrote:

You're the second request for this today-  sounds like a good idea.

Surprised it has only been 2. :\

Hm. I have my letter from when I updated my Social Security information, but it has my deadname on it and I've since legally changed my name.

I should probably get a new letter for my passport and BC.

I think my old one may have had my deadname, too. It was also dated quite a while ago, and I think they want something recent.

Trying to figure out order of doing things.

Do I just get a passport right now, so it's ready should I need to leave?

I want to have it as backup, but right now I want to stay and fight.

Do I do name change and gender marker now and do passport after?

I'm definitely scheduling an orchi as soon as possible. I don't have confidence things won't go to hell before I'd be off the waiting list for GRS.

Depending on where you live, a passport can (at the moment) be the easiest way to get ID with a gender marker change, since you just need a doctor's letter saying you've had "appropriate clinical treatment" for gender transition. In some states, a letter like that is enough. In some states you need a lot more.

The concern with that is that this policy for passports was instituted under the leadership of Secretary of State Clinton... so there's every chance the policy could change in the near future.

The thing that gets me about the whole moral panic around the possibility that a girl would catch a glimpse of a trans woman's penis is the alternatives are plainly about excluding trans people from all public facilities, or they're straight up misogynist.

I could either a) use the men's locker room, and leaving the danger to my person aside, forcing me into the men's facilities means someone's son might see my C cup breasts. Which are a lot harder for me to cover than my atrophied, estrogenized penis is. But this is fine, because a woman seeing a penis is violence to the woman, it's completely okay for me to have to undress in front of men, but that's okay because the boys might get to see some tit.

Or b) I'm not allowed in either women's or men's facilities, which constructively bans trans people from all locker rooms everywhere, at which point you can't really pretend that isn't about segregating us from public life.

Freyja wrote:

I could either a) use the men's locker room, and leaving the danger to my person aside, forcing me into the men's facilities means someone's son might see my C cup breasts. Which are a lot harder for me to cover than my atrophied, estrogenized penis is.

You know, despite being trans myself, I never thought about how people pushing for us to go into men's lockers also meant that they could be exposing their male children to my boobs. And you are right. Hell of a lot of harder to hide those than my penis.

Freyja wrote:

The thing that gets me about the whole moral panic around the possibility that a girl would catch a glimpse of a trans woman's penis is the alternatives are plainly about excluding trans people from all public facilities, or they're straight up misogynist.

I'm coming in here to ask you to please don't go there. I know this is a direct spinoff of the thread that just got locked and is referring specifically to me. You told me to get out of here earlier and I respected that.

I'm referring to one of the arguments you put forward and commenting on the practical consequences of that, which is in scope for the thread, as it affects the lives of trans people.

If you want to discuss a trans issue, go ahead. If you want do to so in a manner that's transphobic, I'm going to push back.

What I will not do is not talk about counter-arguments to common phrases people use to justify excluding us from public life. You're not the only person to ever say 'I don't want my daughter to see a penis' and it's not out of bounds to give my sisters the means to provide a counterpoint when they encounter that outside of this forum because you happened to say it recently.