Ongoing discussion of the political news of the day.
One of the lessons of 2017 it's time for us to be our own heroes and that includes holding ourselves to the highest standards.
And to have the conviction to hold accountable the people we liked along side the people we disliked anyway.
Al Franken's response:
“I certainly don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit in the same way, but I send my sincerest apologies to Leeann,” Sen. Franken said in a statement. “As to the photo, it was clearly intended to be funny but wasn’t. I shouldn’t have done it.”
This seems more like a really large failure of franked to read the situation through this woman's eyes. It was a skit that involved kiss. They should have rehearsed if she was uncomfortable. But it also seems like he viewed it as all in fun, when he was really making her feel uncomfortable and worse.
The photo, while inappropriate, doesn't show him touching her, as far as I can see. It would mean, that the photographer and everyone else that was awake are as guilty as him. If he did touch er, that's way overt the line, however.
But there is no way that you can compare this to Louis CK and Weinstein, who were using their power to go much, much further in making a woman feel comfortable, and did so on a regular enough basis that multiple women have complained. We'll see if there are other women, that may speak up now about Franken. But this doesn't compare to actual assault, masturbating in front of women, and hitting on the most vulnerable.
I think this is good to have come out, as it continues to show the many was men have used their privilege to make women uncomfortable, using sex as abuse. But we do have to remember that, in these situations, that privilege has blinded many men to what is actually acceptable. This feels way more like a star using his comfort in performing comedy, often with sexual bits, to play with a non-performer, not understanding how one sided the entire thing was.
As far as I am concerned, I am okay with his response. He is owning his behavior, and is not attacking the woman fro speaking out, but rather apologizing. If there is more to this story, including other women that show a trend, or more excessive abuse, I would change my mind.
I think that's a fair assessment, and the unambiguous apology is a point in his favor. I hope it does turn out that was just a case of an isolated incident of privileged misreading of a situation, but it falls on the near end of a continuum of behavior that has Weinstein and Moore on the far end. It is a little heartbreaking to find Al Franken falls anywhere on that scale.
An Alabaman I work with was asking the "but why are they just coming out now instead of 40 years ago?" and I responded that it is awfully tough to have the courage to come after a powerful person. This is particularly true if you are 16 years old and don't come from a rich or political powerful family. Or as Omar Little would put it "you come at the king, you best not miss".
He didn't seem to get it until I said "it's like folks asking why no one rushed the gunman in a mass shooting. It doesn't work if you're the only one doing it.".
He admitted it was a good point.
Does he have an answer as to who exactly this 16-year-old thought would be prosecuting the case had she brought it forward?
I think that's a fair assessment, and the unambiguous apology is a point in his favor. I hope it does turn out that was just a case of an isolated incident of privileged misreading of a situation, but it falls on the near end of a continuum of behavior that has Weinstein and Moore on the far end. It is a little heartbreaking to find Al Franken falls anywhere on that scale.
I don't read his response as an unambiguous apology. The justification "it was clearly meant to be funny" really sits wrong with me.
And whether he was actually touching her breasts or just near them, he's WAY over the line in the photo.
thrawn82 wrote:I think that's a fair assessment, and the unambiguous apology is a point in his favor. I hope it does turn out that was just a case of an isolated incident of privileged misreading of a situation, but it falls on the near end of a continuum of behavior that has Weinstein and Moore on the far end. It is a little heartbreaking to find Al Franken falls anywhere on that scale.
I don't read his response as an unambiguous apology. The justification "it was clearly meant to be funny" really sits wrong with me.
And whether he was actually touching her breasts or just near them, he's WAY over the line in the photo.
Yup. Looks like a really weak non-apology apology to me. Disappointing as f*ck.
I think that's a fair assessment, and the unambiguous apology is a point in his favor. I hope it does turn out that was just a case of an isolated incident of privileged misreading of a situation, but it falls on the near end of a continuum of behavior that has Weinstein and Moore on the far end. It is a little heartbreaking to find Al Franken falls anywhere on that scale.
I agree. Although, if he never left entertainment for politics, I doubt this story even registers. It was bad regardless of his position now. But it purely because of his current role that requires this to be exposed and investigated, and that is fair.
I wrote earlier that the #MeToo movement is an important development, but it was only going to be meaningful if men, regardless of political persuasion, were outed. I don't think political persuasion has anything to do with the likelihood that a man is a creeper. It does seem to have a effect on whether one will willfully ignore it.
So, the question is now... what are the Democrats going to do about it? We've just spent a week talking about Moore and how Weiner was kicked out basically ASAP.
Now we have a sitting Senator accused of some (different, but still) gross sexist behavior.
So, what are the Dems going to do?
Meanwihle, Mitch "If these allegations are true..." McConnell is up for immediate action this time because it's a D instead of an R. -_-;;
Things GWJ has taught me this week: I really need to do some self-work on recognizing non-apologies.
Also the world is a dumpster fire now and everyone I love is secretly burning garbage.
Another part of his statement that I really disliked was when he said he didn't remember it. That's not a defense. If you really, really, really want to put in "I don't remember this" (because sure, you very well may not remember it) then you can only do that if you include something along the lines of "which is an example of how much more deeply my actions affected my victims than they affected me".
A longer statement from Fraken that does a better job.
That is better. I don't think his initial short response was a non-apology, but the longer statement is much, much better.
A longer statement from Fraken that does a better job.
Yeah, that one is much better. The fact that he's calling for an ethics investigation of himself is interesting too.
The justification "it was clearly meant to be funny" really sits wrong with me. And whether he was actually touching her breasts or just near them, he's WAY over the line in the photo.
He didn't use "it was meant to be funny" as justification, merely as explanation. He acknowledges that it was wrong and that he shouldn't have done it.
Another part of his statement that I really disliked was when he said he didn't remember it.
Except that's not what he said. He said "I certainly don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit in the same way", which is substantially different. I would guess that all of us have either said/done something with one intent and had it received differently, or had something said/done to us that we interpreted differently than it was intended.
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Gotta ask, what does a "correct" apology look like? From where I'm sitting (and I'm by no means aiming to be an apologist for anybody - I don't know Franken from a hole in the ground), this one hits all the right notes: I'm sorry, I didn't intend harm but acknowledge that I did harm anyway, what I did was wrong. What else should go in there before people stop howling for blood?
Franken should step down. He has a D governor to appoint a replacement. Hell, he could run again if he wanted but we need a higher standard here.
Things GWJ has taught me this week: I really need to do some self-work on recognizing non-apologies.
Also the world is a dumpster fire now and everyone I love is secretly burning garbage.
Yes. I am also bad at it.
Really, really good read.
On Franken, that second statement is better but he should still resign. Honestly though considering he was in Entertainment, in New York, in the 80's, I was half waiting for something like this.
I don’t think Franken needs to step down. But he’s open to an ethics investigation, so we will see.
House passes the Cut Cut Cut Act.
I hate that I once again have to pin my hopes on the Senate GOP to vote down a despicable bill, this time one that's ostensibly a tax cut.
It's a day after the tax committee said it raised taxes on people making under $75k.
Of course they passed it.
I'm sorry, I didn't intend harm but acknowledge that I did harm anyway, what I did was wrong.
That is a good framework for a meaningful apology. But it is not, in my opinion, what Franken initially gave. (I haven't read the second, longer statement yet.)
The context for his response is important here, because the phrases and structure of it are very typical examples of how men brush off women's accusations.
"I don't remember it that way, but I'm sorry" leads with the implication that the accuser is wrong about what happened to them. At its most generous, she's misremembered or misinterpreted; at its least, she's deliberately misconstrued things. But it starts not by acknowledging intent to not do harm and harm still occurring; instead, it starts by suggesting that whether the harm even happened is an open question. He apologizes, but by immediately making it a question of memory and interpretation, he undermines her complaint and makes his apology look like an act of generosity rather than an act of contrition.
Likewise, framing his actions as a joke he shouldn't have made glosses over how inappropriate it is to grab a woman's breasts as a joke in the first place. And it was "clearly intended to be funny but wasn't" suggests once again that it is the victim's fault for not understanding or not interpreting things correctly. It undermines her account.
I don't get the impression at all from Franken's initial statement that he understands that this wasn't just a joke that didn't land. He thought it would be funny to violate her. That's messed up.
It's a day after the tax committee said it raised taxes on people making under $75k.
Of course they passed it.
Don't you know 75k to 400k is middle class? everyone under 75k is "poor" and therefore better off dead.
Franken should step down. He has a D governor to appoint a replacement. Hell, he could run again if he wanted but we need a higher standard here.
You may be right. As a Minnesotan who voted for him, and followed his career since his original appearance on SNL in 1975, I was very disappointed to hear about this. But justice should be blind, and there isn't room for this behavior in DC.
Also, his resignation would remove him as a distraction and cover for pedophiles and serial molesters (assuming this is an isolated incident for Franken). If he were to apologize and step down, how could Roy Moore supporters say a d*mn thing?
oilypenguin wrote:It's a day after the tax committee said it raised taxes on people making under $75k.
Of course they passed it.
Don't you know 75k to 400k is middle class? everyone under 75k is "poor" and therefore better off dead.
What bugs me is that my wife and I might actually get a tax cut but that's going to be immediately off-set by increased healthcare prices with the backhanded attempt to gut the ACA. Again.
But it's not about us. My taxes can be raised, I don't care as long as that money is going to people making less than us.
But it's not. Not even remotely. It's going to the 1% of the 1% and corporations.
Full text of Franken's apology.
The first thing I want to do is apologize: to Leeann, to everyone else who was part of that tour, to everyone who has worked for me, to everyone I represent, and to everyone who counts on me to be an ally and supporter and champion of women. There's more I want to say, but the first and most important thing—and if it's the only thing you care to hear, that's fine—is: I'm sorry.
I respect women. I don't respect men who don't. And the fact that my own actions have given people a good reason to doubt that makes me feel ashamed.
But I want to say something else, too. Over the last few months, all of us—including and especially men who respect women—have been forced to take a good, hard look at our own actions and think (perhaps, shamefully, for the first time) about how those actions have affected women.
For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.
Coming from the world of comedy, I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive. But the intentions behind my actions aren't the point at all. It's the impact these jokes had on others that matters. And I'm sorry it's taken me so long to come to terms with that.
While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women’s experiences.
I am asking that an ethics investigation be undertaken, and I will gladly cooperate.
And the truth is, what people think of me in light of this is far less important than what people think of women who continue to come forward to tell their stories. They deserve to be heard, and believed. And they deserve to know that I am their ally and supporter. I have let them down and am committed to making it up to them.
oilypenguin wrote:Franken should step down. He has a D governor to appoint a replacement. Hell, he could run again if he wanted but we need a higher standard here.
You may be right. As a Minnesotan who voted for him, and followed his career since his original appearance on SNL in 1975, I was very disappointed to hear about this. But justice should be blind, and there isn't room for this behavior in DC.
Also, his resignation would remove him as a distraction and cover for pedophiles and serial molesters (assuming this is an isolated incident for Franken). If he were to apologize and step down, how could Roy Moore supporters say a d*mn thing?
I think their response would probably be to dance with victory yelling "Your guy got booted out for his thing but our guy still got elected so that's makes us the winners because MAGA"
I wouldn't find it the last bit inconsistent with their behavior over the last couple weeks to hear them simultaneously calling everyone who accused Moore a partisan liar while holding up anyone accusing anyone with a D after their name paragons of impartial honesty.
oilypenguin wrote:Franken should step down. He has a D governor to appoint a replacement. Hell, he could run again if he wanted but we need a higher standard here.
You may be right. As a Minnesotan who voted for him, and followed his career since his original appearance on SNL in 1975, I was very disappointed to hear about this. But justice should be blind, and there isn't room for this behavior in DC.
Also, his resignation would remove him as a distraction and cover for pedophiles and serial molesters (assuming this is an isolated incident for Franken). If he were to apologize and step down, how could Roy Moore supporters say a d*mn thing?
Bingo. Franken needs to go and set the example of how things are supposed to be done.
JeffreyLSmith wrote:oilypenguin wrote:Franken should step down. He has a D governor to appoint a replacement. Hell, he could run again if he wanted but we need a higher standard here.
You may be right. As a Minnesotan who voted for him, and followed his career since his original appearance on SNL in 1975, I was very disappointed to hear about this. But justice should be blind, and there isn't room for this behavior in DC.
Also, his resignation would remove him as a distraction and cover for pedophiles and serial molesters (assuming this is an isolated incident for Franken). If he were to apologize and step down, how could Roy Moore supporters say a d*mn thing?
Bingo. Franken needs to go and set the example of how things are supposed to be done.
To mangle a Gandhi quote, be the corrupt political party you want to see in the world.
So, the question is now... what are the Democrats going to do about it? We've just spent a week talking about Moore and how Weiner was kicked out basically ASAP.
Now we have a sitting Senator accused of some (different, but still) gross sexist behavior.
So, what are the Dems going to do?
Meanwihle, Mitch "If these allegations are true..." McConnell is up for immediate action this time because it's a D instead of an R. -_-;;
I don't think this equivocates with attempted rape and multiple instances of sexual assault.
And he actually admits and apologizes. If it turns out to be a pattern we can revisit, but it's not even in the more Moore ballpark yet.
Not as bad as a serial rapist/pedo is one low ass bar.
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