[Discussion] 2016 Presidential Elections Vote-All

The US Presidential Elections catch-all. All discussion related to the ongoing campaigns can go here.

Random thought: I'm beginning to suspect that one group uses "racist" to insult and shame, and another group uses "racist" as a label of a condition or systemic state. And both groups are talking past each other.

OzymandiasAV wrote:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...

Donald Trump wrote:

Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!

It's been two days and protesters are already under his skin.

Any slim hope I had that the awesome responsibility of actually being elected president would sink in and have a sobering effect on Trump... yeah, it's already out the window.

Seems Bernie Sanders is supporting Rep. Keith Ellison to be the new DNC chair:

The declining middle class is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics, and the establishment media. People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes, and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

Voters know these problems — yet they chose Donald Trump as their next president. That means the Democratic Party needs to look itself in the mirror and work tirelessly to become once again the party that working people know will work for their interests.

That's why I believe that Rep. Keith Ellison is the right person to lead the Democratic National Committee.

Keith is one of the most progressive members of Congress, and he was an early supporter of our political revolution. He is a co-chair of the House Progressive Caucus, a strong believer in grassroots politics, and someone who would be enormously effective in leading the Democratic Party against President Donald Trump.

If you agree that Keith Ellison should be the next Chair of the Democratic National Committee, add your name to mine. We'll deliver a letter to DNC members to show the tremendous support for Keith.

You cannot be a party which on one hand says we're in favor of working people, we're in favor of the needs of young people but we don't quite have the courage to take on Wall Street and the billionaire class. People do not believe that. You've got to decide which side you're on.

Keith Ellison knows the importance of rejecting the policies of the political establishment and wealthy campaign contributors. He is prepared to take on the billionaire class and all forms of bigotry. He vigorously supports a $15 minimum wage, opposes fracking and dangerous oil pipelines, and he wants to get big money out of politics.

I don't think the political establishment and the billionaire class would like Keith Ellison as the DNC chair. Good.

Keith also understands the stakes of what might happen under the Trump Administration. He knows just how dangerous it will be for Muslims, people of color, immigrants, our LGBT sisters and brothers, and so many others. His experience and perspective would be key to leading the fight against Trump.

I'm sure a lot of you have some feelings about the Democratic National Committee. The truth is that it is an important entity to build, support, and maintain if we are to have the chance to organize and win in the coming elections while Trump is president.

We must also do everything we can to elect Democrats to Congress in 2018, and to take back the White House in 2020. We need a Democratic National Committee led by a progressive who understand the dire need to listen to working families, not the political establishment or the billionaire class.

That is why I support Keith Ellison to be the next Chair of the Democratic National Committee, and why I hope you'll join me in advocating for him to lead the DNC.

Add your name to mine and tell the DNC you want to see Keith Ellison as the next chair of the Democratic Party.

We have a lot of work ahead of us. Thank you for being a part of our political revolution.

In solidarity,

Bernie Sanders

Another name Redditors keep pushing is Tulsi Gabbard; I don't know much about her, but they seem impressed, and it's not like she's likely to have a paid political brigade upvoting her name.

I thought this article from Glenn Greenwald was very good, especially this bit:

Glenn Greenwald wrote:

When a political party is demolished, the principal responsibility belongs to one entity: the party that got crushed. It’s the job of the party and the candidate, and nobody else, to persuade the citizenry to support them and find ways to do that. Last night, the Democrats failed, resoundingly, to do that, and any autopsy or liberal think piece or pro-Clinton pundit commentary that does not start and finish with their own behavior is one that is inherently worthless.

Put simply, Democrats knowingly chose to nominate a deeply unpopular, extremely vulnerable, scandal-plagued candidate, who — for very good reason — was widely perceived to be a protector and beneficiary of all the worst components of status quo elite corruption. It’s astonishing that those of us who tried frantically to warn Democrats that nominating Hillary Clinton was a huge and scary gamble — that all empirical evidence showed that she could lose to anyone and Bernie Sanders would be a much stronger candidate, especially in this climate — are now the ones being blamed: by the very same people who insisted on ignoring all that data and nominating her anyway.

But that’s just basic blame shifting and self-preservation. Far more significant is what this shows about the mentality of the Democratic Party. Just think about who they nominated: someone who — when she wasn’t dining with Saudi monarchs and being feted in Davos by tyrants who gave million-dollar checks — spent the last several years piggishly running around to Wall Street banks and major corporations cashing in with $250,000 fees for 45-minute secret speeches even though she had already become unimaginably rich with book advances while her husband already made tens of millions playing these same games. She did all that without the slightest apparent concern for how that would feed into all the perceptions and resentments of her and the Democratic Party as corrupt, status quo-protecting, aristocratic tools of the rich and powerful: exactly the worst possible behavior for this post-2008-economic-crisis era of globalism and destroyed industries.

It goes without saying that Trump is a sociopathic con artist obsessed with personal enrichment: the opposite of a genuine warrior for the downtrodden. That’s too obvious to debate. But, just as Obama did so powerfully in 2008, he could credibly run as an enemy of the D.C. and Wall Street system that has steamrolled over so many people, while Hillary Clinton is its loyal guardian, its consummate beneficiary.

Trump vowed to destroy the system that elites love (for good reason) and the masses hate (for equally good reason), while Clinton vowed to manage it more efficiently.

I've been hearing rumors of Trump picking Ben Carson as Education Secretary. Maybe we'll be able to rebuild all our classrooms into the shape of pyramids so that our students can help store up lots of grain for the coming apocalypse.

bandit0013 wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:

Even better is that despite the bolded part, we now have Trump talking heads going on and on about how classless and disrespectful Hillary and her supporters are being.

Some seriously clutched pearls, yo.

Yes, the anti-trump voters are being totally classy right now.

Protest... NSFW

As usual, fringe people will be fringe. Give it a few weeks.

I'm sorry... please tell us about the "proper" way to demonstrate against fascists? FFS.

It seems to me that calling them fascist and holding street demonstrations should probably wait until they actually do something.

People are blowing this totally by getting out in the streets so soon. What are they going to do when Trump actually starts to do things they don't like? Go protest more? Pfft.

President Trump: How America Got It So Wrong

In which Matt Taibbi is very inflammatory.

Trump made idiots of us all. From the end of primary season onward, I felt sure Trump was en route to ruining, perhaps forever, the Republican Party as a force in modern American life. Now the Republicans are more dominant than ever, and it is the Democratic Party that is shattered and faces an uncertain future.

And they deserve it. The Democratic Party's failure to keep Donald Trump out of the White House in 2016 will go down as one of the all-time examples of insular arrogance. The party not only spent most of the past two years ignoring the warning signs of the Trump rebellion, but vilifying anyone who tried to point them out. It denounced all rumors of its creeping unpopularity as vulgar lies and bullied anyone who dared question its campaign strategy by calling them racists, sexists and agents of Vladimir Putin's Russia.

But the party's willful blindness symbolized a similar arrogance across the American intellectual elite. Trump's election was a true rebellion, directed at anyone perceived to be part of "the establishment." The target group included political leaders, bankers, industrialists, academics, Hollywood actors, and, of course, the media. And we all closed our eyes to what we didn't want to see.

Yes, Trump's win was a triumph of the hideous racism, sexism and xenophobia that has always run through American society. But his coalition also took aim at the neoliberal gentry's pathetic reliance on proxies to communicate with flyover America. They fed on the widespread visceral disdain red-staters felt toward the very people Hillary Clinton's campaign enlisted all year to speak on its behalf: Hollywood actors, big-ticket musicians, Beltway activists, academics, and especially media figures.

Trump's rebellion was born at the intersection of two toxic American myths, the post-racial society and the classless society.

Candidate Trump told a story about a conspiracy of cultural and financial elites bent on finishing off a vanishing white middle-class nirvana, first by shipping jobs overseas and then by waving hordes of crime-prone, bomb-tossing immigrants over the border.

Malor wrote:

It seems to me that calling them fascist and holding street demonstrations should probably wait until they actually do something.

People are blowing this totally by getting out in the streets so soon. What are they going to do when Trump actually starts to do things they don't like? Go protest more? Pfft.

Tough call, but I think when the party has run on a fascist repressive platform it makes sense to take a stand before said party starts the pogroms. Trump and his surrogates have run on the promise of violent repression, no need to wait for them to make good on their promises.

And getting a good bit of protest in before the inauguration may help the Trumpistas realise that people won't take it lying down.

Wow, that's a good article.

He takes office at a time when the chief executive is vastly more powerful than ever before, with nearly unlimited authority to investigate, surveil, torture and assassinate foreigners and even U.S. citizens – powers that didn't seem to trouble people much when they were granted to Barack Obama.

Well, they freaking terrified me. But even here, I got a lot of static about my belief that drone assassinations are just flying versions of death squads. And now Donald Trump will have them, in another sixty days or so. Along with instant dossiers on any citizen, courtesy of the massive informational taps the NSA has put in place on the Internet. This is an authoritarian's wet dream, and we built it, and handed it over to a malignant narcissist who endlessly fantasizes about revenge on his enemies.

I've said, over and over again, that the surveillance state isn't about protecting you from terrorists. Rather, it's about protecting the government from you. And now an explicit, stated enemy of many of us here is taking control over that state.

Donald Trump, and the Republican Party, will now use the tools we gave them (or that they took) to make sure that liberals will never again gain political control of this country.

The American experiment, as we knew it, ended on November 8.

I hesitate to post this but I think there are some truths here.

Just as a note, I've been watching morning Joe for a while and I know a lot of people hate the programme but Joe, whatever you think of him, has said he wouldn't vote for Trump. He was out at the point Trump started talking about a Muslim ban and I suspect that everyone on that programme, as much as most people in this thread, think that the Trump presidency could easily become a horror show.

Edit: I'll add this which got me a tad choked up.

Who knows if it will help, but might as well let him know what you think will make America great (interesting he left off "again"): https://apply.ptt.gov/yourstory/

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Tough call, but I think when the party has run on a fascist repressive platform it makes sense to take a stand before said party starts the pogroms. Trump and his surrogates have run on the promise of violent repression, no need to wait for them to make good on their promises.

Pretty much. When the autocrat tells you what he's gonna do, you believe him the first time.

Brynn Tannehill wrote:

People have been asking me what last night means. I can’t know all the potential fallout from it; between foreign policy, the economy, military affairs, and domestic spending everything tells me this is going to be a parade of horribles.

However, I do know pretty much exactly what is going to happen to the transgender community.

1. We’re going to lose the Gavin Grimm case on both counts (Auer and Title IX). “How can you know?” you ask? Well, how do you win when the plaintiffs argue that a government argues against its own previous interpretation of a policy? When we lose, this will trickle down to Title VII’s definition of sex as well. As a result, transgender students and workers will lose all their federal protections except those contained in the VAWA.

2. Losing Title VII and Title IX, as well as being reduced to rational basis scrutiny, will open the floodgates on anti-transgender laws. In court, under rational basis scrutiny, government claims of “public safety” have a strong chance of succeeding. In any event, we will see a deluge of anti-transgender laws passed at the state level this year, and they’re likely to be upheld as constitutional post-Grimm.

3. The ACA is likely to be repealed. There go our legal protections in health care in most states. It also means that getting blockers is going to get a lot harder in most states (33 of them, in fact) for parents with transgender children.

4. We’re likely to see the interpretation of RFRA to expand via SCOTUS case to allow employers to discriminate against transgender employees (and women, and anyone else without strict scrutiny level protections). Worse, though, we will likely see it expanded via court decisions to allow employees to claim religious exemptions from corporate EO policies when it comes to transgender co-workers. This means the your employer must accommodate in the least intrusive way possible, that co-worker who keeps refusing to work with you, calling you an abomination, and leaving Chick Tracks on your desk.

Similarly, this expansion of RFRA would likely allow people to ignore civil rights protections for transgender people even in deep blue states where state law protects transgender people. Imagine teachers and principals who can refuse to educate transgender students, or who can “witness” to them in the classroom in front of all their peers. This (#3) would effectively nullify all the state and local level protections we have fought for over the past 20 years. It’s also very likely to happen with two more Scalias on the Supreme Court, which Trump has promised to do.

5. All of Obama’s executive orders will be repealed, including those protecting transgender federal employees and contractors.

6. Mike Pence is going to be running the show on social policy. When it comes to transgender people, look at what the Family Research Council’s goals are and apply them to the Federal government. The Trump administration is likely to try to prevent the federal government from recognizing any gender changes in a legal sense (bye-bye passports and social security gender marker changes). No more coverage of hormones, labs, therapy, or anything else in federal employee health benefits. OPM can mandate transgender people use separate bathrooms, or simply remove the existing language. They’ve already hinted they want to roll back the DoD’s policy, which is one of the FRC’s 5 main policy goals for the transgender community.

Conclusions:

Keep in mind that it can take anywhere between 20-75 years to strike down bad Supreme Court rulings, if they are ever struck down at all. (The Koramatsu decision allowing the detention of Japanese-Americans still stands, actually). As such, the damage done during a Trump Administration is likely to last the rest of our lives. With gerrymandered districts and the census cycle the way it is, we will not see the Equality Act passed until at least 2033.

Adverse rulings on RFRA are also likely to render moot any efforts we might undertake at a state or local level in terms of non-discrimination efforts.

Worse, the things I just listed are what I expect to happen. It doesn't even take into account what they can do if they get REALLY nasty. They can easily (and legally) revoke all our security clearances, and purge the federal government (and federal contractors) of transgender employees. They can refuse to issue DEA licenses to transgender doctors (legally), and disbar transgender lawyers at a state level,

There would be little recourse for the really nasty things I described under rational basis scrutiny.(And if they start happening, run, and don't stop until you're north of the Canadian border claiming refugee status. The things I just described are likely a prelude to much, much worse things happening.)

Last night wasn’t just bad.

It was probably the end of the LGBT civil rights movement, as we know it, for the next 2 decades, if not for the rest of our lives.

gewy wrote:

Any slim hope I had that the awesome responsibility of actually being elected president would sink in and have a sobering effect on Trump... yeah, it's already out the window.

He did have a 1000 yard stare after his hour+ meeting with Obama yesterday. Thought he looked calmer than I've seen him all year.

A little late, but here's a good WaPo article on electoral college maps and cartograms. It's a bit more clear (for me, anyway) than the one that Gremlin posted earlier. It does include, that, though.

gewy wrote:
OzymandiasAV wrote:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...

Donald Trump wrote:

Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!

It's been two days and protesters are already under his skin.

Any slim hope I had that the awesome responsibility of actually being elected president would sink in and have a sobering effect on Trump... yeah, it's already out the window.

Trump got elected by keeping himself engaged with his audience less like a politician and more like a YouTube star. He's not going to let the people who voted for him experience the kind of media hibernation that politicians usually give us. He's going to run the printing presses of social capital and keep giving his supporters things to favorite and retweet and post to facebook right on through to his next election campaign.

He's not going to wait to go in front of traditional media and give a press conference about his deep, deep thoughts. Of course he's going to tweet another variation on his "the system is rigged" message straight to the people who put him in the White House. That's how he got here. That's how he's going to stay there.

Freyja wrote:

I'm not absolving you of that. I don't give a damn about your motives, you're culpable.

Are you going to pay my medical bills when I'm denied insurance coverage for being trans? Pay my rent when I'm fired for it? Cover my legal fees to shore up my inheritance rights when my marriage is dissolved? Watch my back when I use a public restroom?

If all of those answers aren't yes, then all the "I'm not a bigot" protesting in the world doesn't matter. You enabled real, material harm to my ability to survive, sit with that discomfort.

I thought about this post a lot last night, a I need to respond.

If you are going to draw a dotted line between my vote and your suffering, then I will draw a similar line between you and the death of every healthy unborn child past 3 months (my own personal line in the sand) due to abortion.

I would be willing to discuss things further, but every time I have tried, you have done nothing but lash out in anger. If this group is really serious about wanting to improve things you care about, you have got to stop crucifying every person who comes in here with a different view.

The attitude of "you are a bigot, you are culpable, I don't give a damn about your motives" is why you lost on Tuesday.

MattDaddy wrote:

If you are going to draw a dotted line between my vote and your suffering, then I will draw a similar line between you and the death of every healthy unborn child past 3 months (my own personal line in the sand) due to abortion.

The vast majority of late-term abortions are done for health reasons. You're drawing a line between something that is largely a Fox News myth and some very real suffering.

MattDaddy wrote:

If this group is really serious about wanting to improve things you care about

Also, holy crap. How about not accusing trans people of not being serious about the "things they care about" which include having basic rights and not being murdered?

Demyx wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

If you are going to draw a dotted line between my vote and your suffering, then I will draw a similar line between you and the death of every healthy unborn child past 3 months (my own personal line in the sand) due to abortion.

The vast majority of late-term abortions are done for health reasons. You're drawing a line between something that is largely a Fox News myth and some very real suffering.

I know that he will correct me if I'm misrepresenting his position, but from previous discussions, I believe MattDaddy holds the belief that a fertilized egg is equivalent to a human child.

I think it is not a position that is supported by the evidence, and that the bodily-autonomy argument renders that line of argument entirely moot, but that's what I think his stance is on that point.

Dimmerswitch wrote:
Demyx wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

If you are going to draw a dotted line between my vote and your suffering, then I will draw a similar line between you and the death of every healthy unborn child past 3 months (my own personal line in the sand) due to abortion.

The vast majority of late-term abortions are done for health reasons. You're drawing a line between something that is largely a Fox News myth and some very real suffering.

I know that he will correct me if I'm misrepresenting his position, but from previous discussions, I believe MattDaddy holds the belief that a fertilized egg is equivalent to a human child.

I think it is not a position that is supported by the evidence, and that the bodily-autonomy argument renders that line of argument entirely moot, but that's what I think his stance is on that point.

He said "past three months" not "at fertilization" so that's what I'm responding to.

I also think comparing the "suffering" of a small clump of cells to living adult human beings is incredibly insulting.

No argument here, Demyx.

[Edit to add:]
Thanks for the WaPo map link, Robear. that's a great find.

I think this one does a great job of showing just how strongly misleading plotting electoral results on a geographic map can be.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/obJDrlK.jpg)

Malor wrote:

The American experiment, as we knew it, ended on November 8.

This is how I ended the angry rant I posted to Facebook Wednesday morning.

Spoiler:

Yesterday America announced to the rest of humanity that we are no longer deserving of being a world power. Voters have chosen to cast their ballots for the most unfit candidate ever nominated by a major party. A compulsive liar who regards truth and facts as malleable concepts that are subject to his own personal whim. A repeated draft dodger who has regularly insulted the US military, its leadership, and its veterans. A petty and vindictive sh*t-weasel with so little impulse control that he launches into angry Twitter tirades at the tiniest perceived slight. A serial adulterer who's not only conducted public affairs, he's on record explaining how his celebrity and privilege allow him to sexually assault women without repercussion. Not only did his first wife accuse him of rape, a steady stream of other women came forward to share their own stories of abuse at the tiny hands of Trump.

Trump supporters tout his business acumen, but of course this is just another Trump fiction: his life has been a string of corporate failures bailed out by the inheritance from his father and later by money from other investors. His financial-genius persona is a complete fraud, just as many of his businesses were (Trump University -- the lawsuit begins this month). The man literally gives NEGATIVE money to charity, donating nothing of his own wealth while using his fake charity to buy things for himself or settle his legal debts. He withheld his tax returns even though this has been considered the absolute minimum standard of transparency for decades by both Republicans and Democrats.

Trump doesn't hide his racism behind tired Republican dog-whistles: he has been openly racist on the campaign trail, calling the majority of Mexican immigrants rapists, even throwing a black Trump supporter out of one of his rallies because of his assumption that all African-Americans are thugs. Even Republican leadership has been forced to publicly call him out on his racism. He wants to take NYC's racist stop-and-frisk and apply it across the country. He even hired the head of a white nationalist web site to help run his campaign. ONE OF HIS FEW NEWSPAPER ENDORSEMENTS WAS THE OFFICIAL KKK PUBLICATION! His Islamophobia paints a quarter of the world's populations as evil and used this to drive a campaign based on fear. His hollow words of support to gay and trans communities were completely invalidated by choosing the most virulently anti-gay governor in the United States: a man who thinks being gay is an illness that can be cured by torture. Trump's campaign alone has been responsible for the uptick in hate crimes in the United States. Even before he was elected, he has emboldened racism and hate, bringing them back into the mainstream.

Donald Trump is usually incapable of stringing together coherent sentences without a teleprompter. Completely unpredictable, he's flip-flopped on policy stances in a single day. He terrifies our long-time world allies while sucking up Russian and turning a blind eye to their naked aggression in Ukraine. He has demonstrated time and again that he not only doesn't understand the United States Constitution, he doesn't even respect it.

And why has this happened? Because Hillary kept emails on a server? Because years of a witch hunt over Benghazi that found NOTHING still left people thinking she still did something wrong? A string of fabricated accusations against the Clinton Foundation that gullible idiots believed because they WANTED to believe it. Trump's "charitable" foundation was actually shut down in New York for illegalities and somehow the Clintons are the ones who did something wrong? Trump and his supporters ran the most appalling smear campaign in modern history. Deluded morons brainwashed by years of Republican nonsense and Fox News turned to nutball sites like InfoWars as their sources of definitive truth -- a site which has literally said Hillary Clinton is a f*cking DEMON. "Mainstream media lies!" they cry, even while you show them video proof of Trump saying one thing and then lying about it later. How can they claim to value honesty and then vote for f*cking DONALD TRUMP, a man so fundamentally dishonest that when he tells the truth it's just as likely to have been an accident as to have been deliberate. Do they think that Hillary and Democrat elites are out of touch with blue collar Americans? Then why would they vote for a candidate who's been in the wealthy elite since the day he was born and never really worked a day in his life? A candidate who has proposed even more tax breaks for the wealthy elites like himself. And let's not forget all the uneducated morons who worry that a post-menopausal woman will decide to nuke a country because it's "that time of the month". Hillary would not have been my first choice for president, but Donald Trump is definitely my last.

Those who voted for Trump have endorsed the idea that women are not fully human, that blacks and other minority races are not fully human, that Muslims are not fully human, that gays, trans, and anyone else not straight cis are not fully human. America's sh*tty majority has embraced racism, sexism, and the erosion of our fundamental human rights. America has been called "The Great Experiment". In 2016 we have discovered that the experiment has been a failure.

Demyx wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

If this group is really serious about wanting to improve things you care about

Also, holy crap. How about not accusing trans people of not being serious about the "things they care about" which include having basic rights and not being murdered?

Did you actually stop reading his post the way you quoted it? Because it sure likes it.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
Malor wrote:

The American experiment, as we knew it, ended on November 8.

This is how I ended the angry rant I posted to Facebook Wednesday morning.

I am somewhat on board with that...somewhat.

I don't think the British experiment ended when they lost their status as world leader, I don't think the German experiment ended when the Nazis came to power, I don't think the Japanese experiment ended when they entered WW2, or that the Italian experiment ended with Mussolini.

History is littered with examples of countries making choices that seem terrible but continuing on.

And the thing is; when I look at the trajectory of human history I see it moving forward. Perhaps not as fast as we would like, perhaps not during our lifetime but over the course of human history we have become less violent, more respectful of difference, quite frankly a better species.

liquid wrote:
Demyx wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

If this group is really serious about wanting to improve things you care about

Also, holy crap. How about not accusing trans people of not being serious about the "things they care about" which include having basic rights and not being murdered?

Did you actually stop reading his post the way you quoted it? Because it sure likes it.

I can respond to the rest of the post, sure, here you go.

MattDaddy wrote:

I would be willing to discuss things further, but every time I have tried, you have done nothing but lash out in anger. If this group is really serious about wanting to improve things you care about, you have got to stop crucifying every person who comes in here with a different view.

The attitude of "you are a bigot, you are culpable, I don't give a damn about your motives" is why you lost on Tuesday.

How is this not "I'm free to not care about trans people's basic human rights if they make me uncomfortable in a forums thread"?

Freyja wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Tough call, but I think when the party has run on a fascist repressive platform it makes sense to take a stand before said party starts the pogroms. Trump and his surrogates have run on the promise of violent repression, no need to wait for them to make good on their promises.

Pretty much. When the autocrat tells you what he's gonna do, you believe him the first time.

Brynn Tannehill wrote:

horrors I can't even wrap my head around

I just can't even....my stomach is churning, partly with the guilt of the privilege of being somewhere (relatively) safe from all this...evil. The absolute worst I've had to deal with to date is some long waiting lists and ONE sarcastic wolf whistle. I can't even IMAGINE the stress you and yours are under over there right now Freyja

MattDaddy wrote:
Freyja wrote:

I'm not absolving you of that. I don't give a damn about your motives, you're culpable.

Are you going to pay my medical bills when I'm denied insurance coverage for being trans? Pay my rent when I'm fired for it? Cover my legal fees to shore up my inheritance rights when my marriage is dissolved? Watch my back when I use a public restroom?

If all of those answers aren't yes, then all the "I'm not a bigot" protesting in the world doesn't matter. You enabled real, material harm to my ability to survive, sit with that discomfort.

I thought about this post a lot last night, a I need to respond.

If you are going to draw a dotted line between my vote and your suffering, then I will draw a similar line between you and the death of every healthy unborn child past 3 months (my own personal line in the sand) due to abortion.

I would be willing to discuss things further, but every time I have tried, you have done nothing but lash out in anger. If this group is really serious about wanting to improve things you care about, you have got to stop crucifying every person who comes in here with a different view.

The attitude of "you are a bigot, you are culpable, I don't give a damn about your motives" is why you lost on Tuesday.

For crying out loud. Your candidate's "different view" is that I am subhuman. Why on earth would I do anything but actively and loudly resist that?

You didn't want to discuss anything. You expected me to be deferential to you because instead of actively hating me, you were merely indifferent to the suffering we warned would be inflicted on us under this administration, and now you're gloating about it.

That's not any better. You don't get to vote against my civil rights and expect an invitation to my wedding.

Demyx wrote:
liquid wrote:
Demyx wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

If this group is really serious about wanting to improve things you care about

Also, holy crap. How about not accusing trans people of not being serious about the "things they care about" which include having basic rights and not being murdered?

Did you actually stop reading his post the way you quoted it? Because it sure likes it.

I can respond to the rest of the post, sure, here you go.

MattDaddy wrote:

I would be willing to discuss things further, but every time I have tried, you have done nothing but lash out in anger. If this group is really serious about wanting to improve things you care about, you have got to stop crucifying every person who comes in here with a different view.

The attitude of "you are a bigot, you are culpable, I don't give a damn about your motives" is why you lost on Tuesday.

How is this not "I'm free to not care about trans people's basic human rights if they make me uncomfortable in a forums thread"?

While I don't agree with MattDaddy I respect his choice, and I wish others would be more considerate of his opinions, as I'd like to see him continue in this thread. I haven't seen him say anything about being against LGBT rights. Unfortunately at this time, if you're pro-life there isn't a candidate who has a pro-life platform that is also forward thinking when it comes to the LGBT community. Most of us probably don't agree with all of our candidates ideas so we vote based on what's most important to us. If stopping abortions is what's important to a person than I would expect them to vote accordingly.