GWJ Conference Call Episode 507

A Ton of VR Games, The Social Dynamics of VR, Your Emails and More!

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This week Shawn, Karla and Jeff Cannata dive deep into a ton of virtual reality experiences, talk about the social dynamics of VR and answer your VR questions! VR.

To contact us, email [email protected]! Send us your thoughts on the show, pressing issues you want to talk about or whatever else is on your mind.

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Show credits

Music credits: 

Young Man’s Game - Echoside - http://echosidetracks.bandcamp.com/ - 58:33

Makin’ Money - Echoside - http://echosidetracks.bandcamp.com/ - 1:17:24

Comments

00:05:08 Battle Dome
00:11:20 The Lab
00:13:49 Vive vs. Occulus
00:19:36 Budget Cuts
00:21:20 Everything is Fun in VR!
00:27:12 The Gallery: Call of the Starseed
00:30:22 HordeZ
00:34:26 VR Game Ideas
00:36:06 Raw Data
00:41:24 #SelfieTennis
00:42:42 Tilt Brush
00:44:42 A-10 VR
00:45:52 Vanishing Realms
00:46:49 Minecraft
00:47:25 Waltz of the Wizard
00:49:05 Dreamdeck
00:49:29 Pool Nation VR
00:49:50 House of the Dying Sun
00:50:30 Final Approach
00:51:32 Lucky's Tale
00:52:30 VR Nausea
00:54:27 Occulus vs. Vive
00:56:20 Should Every Game be in VR?
00:58:33 The Social Dynamics of VR
01:17:24 Your Emails

VR games excite me conceptually, but I don't know if I can stomach them (pun intended) in execution. I think I am most interested in VR's applications for helping those with mental illnesses confront their problems in a controllable environment, specifically as a vehicle for exposure therapy. I know that in the past there was some work being done with veterans suffering from PTSD and using VR to help them work through issues. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of VR gaming (even if it tends to make me motion sick) and I love the attention it is getting. I am just hoping that the rising popularity spurs us to explore other uses for the technology. I like the idea of an immersive movie experience or a virtual teleconference, which has been a staple of Sci-Fi for years now. Where's my Holodeck? In any case, I enjoyed the episode and the enthusiasm even if it's for something I may just need to take a pass on.

I really hope y'all don't take this the wrong way, but listening to folks talk about how awesome VR is reminds me how my old boss used to talk about how much he enjoyed taking his boat out on the weekends, or how my current boss talks about how much he enjoys going to his beach house.

I'm not hating--I'm honestly glad you're all having a good time--but these experiences are simply beyond my financial situation now or even in the foreseeable future, so they really have no relevance for me (or, I suspect, a lot of other people in the audience, too).

I'm not saying that you shouldn't talk about all the virtual fun you're having, but if you're at all curious if members of your audience feel the same way that Jeff's do, the answer is a definite "yes."

I don't know what drives the current reticence to talk about VR on a lot of the podcasts I listen to. I'm not into online team shooters but there is no lack of coverage of Overwatch. I don't complain about that. I either fast forward or listen in order to perhaps learn something that will make me more interested. I enjoyed the coverage and I think it was a good idea to go for an "all in" approach and devote the entire podcast to the topic. Getting Jeff was just the icing on the cake.

Flying_Norseman wrote:

I'm not into online team shooters but there is no lack of coverage of Overwatch. I don't complain about that.

You may not, but if you listen to Cannata's podcast DLC, you'll be familiar with how half of his audience is very vocal about disliking Heroes of the Storm content (at least, when I last listened, which may have been a year ago). There's a lot of people that are unable to see past their own interests and project that onto everyone else.

As for the dislike of hearing people discuss VR, I think it's two things. The first is as MrMetonymy above spoke. Not everyone has had a chance to try it, and even if they have, not everyone is financially capable of enjoying VR (or lives in a space where having a separate room just for VR is a possibility). However, I think there's an additional layer of zealotry that has been going on for at least a year now, if not two, surrounding VR and people's experiences with it. The best I can describe it is that person that has become a born again Christian and they just won't shut up about how amazing Jesus is and man you just gotta go to Church with them because Jesus will change your life forever. At some point you get sick of it.

For the most part, GWJ's conference call has been good about keeping topics away from strictly VR, but even so, this is an episode I'm setting aside for after I finally get a chance to try VR for myself. Even so, I view VR as having a part of a future for certain experiences, but I don't even have an interest in pretending to play a traditional video game in a pretend movie theater. The idea that people not only believe but hope VR is THE future, as in THE ONE AND ONLY future of video games, is not only bothersome, but worrisome, and like so many other things pushes anyone that would be in the middle-ground towards an extreme, most likely an extreme opposition.

Not every podcast is going to appeal to all the audience, though. I don't think they'll go from GamersWIthJobs to GamersWithVR any time soon.

Not interested in VR talk but I like you so I will listen and see if you change my mind.

I can understand the people who haven't tried VR yet grumbling about the VR topic but I have my Vive and it's an exciting time so it was great for me. Loved it and Jeff as always was a great guest.

Cheers!

MrMetonymy wrote:

I really hope y'all don't take this the wrong way, but listening to folks talk about how awesome VR is reminds me how my old boss used to talk about how much he enjoyed taking his boat out on the weekends, or how my current boss talks about how much he enjoys going to his beach house.

I'm not hating--I'm honestly glad you're all having a good time--but these experiences are simply beyond my financial situation now or even in the foreseeable future, so they really have no relevance for me (or, I suspect, a lot of other people in the audience, too).

I'm not saying that you shouldn't talk about all the virtual fun you're having, but if you're at all curious if members of your audience feel the same way that Jeff's do, the answer is a definite "yes."

I think this is pretty spot on.

In my case, the main problem is that I haven't had an opportunity to try VR, so I have no context for anything being described. It's like trying to explain the fun of drinking to someone that has never had a sip of alcohol. "Well you don't remember things as well, and your speech gets slurred, and you say things you probably wouldn't normally say, and you might end up doing things you regret later, and there's a good chance you'll feel like complete sh*t the next day. Trust me, it's awesome!"

I really like Jeff, but when he gets going on VR on DLC, I usually end up zoning out or skipping through. It doesn't matter how passionate he is or how well he describes his VR experiences. They just don't make any sense as someone that hasn't tried VR.

As someone who is extremely allergic to cats yet loves animals, someone else please, please make Cat Brusher 2016.

I'll just leave this here.

Amoebic wrote:

As someone who is extremely allergic to cats yet loves animals, someone else please, please make Cat Brusher 2016.

Amoebic wrote:

As someone who is extremely allergic to cats yet loves animals, someone else please, please make Cat Brusher 2016.

I love the hero image!

You made me want one of those, most likely an Oculus. I don't think I have the space for the Virtual Room setup, and lighter sounds better.

However, I still don't have a computer able to run VR, not the money to buy it, but it's something that maybe in a couple of years I want to buy..

If it's still available.

Holy smokes at all the guys whining about VR. This is what Jeff was talking about when the show first started. People that can't afford it or have not tried it seem to want it to fail period. Seen this time and time again, but no one seems to notice reading about how much VR sucks is not a thing. It's the real deal and the coolest thing I have tried and I've been gaming since the Commodore 64.

Really tired of people giving their two cents that have not even tried it, and have not even tried Google cardboard.

Great show guys loved every second of it.

kabutor wrote:

You made me want one of those, most likely an Oculus. I don't think I have the space for the Virtual Room setup, and lighter sounds better.

However, I still don't have a computer able to run VR, not the money to buy it, but it's something that maybe in a couple of years I want to buy..

If it's still available.

It's not that much lighter I actually prefer the Vive over the Oculus it's more comfortable for me in long use but from what I have read that's not the norm.

Starman3482 wrote:

People that can't afford it or have not tried it seem to want it to fail period.

None of us said we want it to fail. At worst I simply said I don't want it to be the only future. This means I recognize and acknowledge its uses in gaming and beyond, and I also feel it is an inevitable technology that won't go away. But no one said they hope it fails.

The complaint is that the constant singing and praising for a luxury item among luxury items gets tiresome after a while, whether you're on board the VR hype train or not.

ccesarano wrote:
Starman3482 wrote:

People that can't afford it or have not tried it seem to want it to fail period.

None of us said we want it to fail. At worst I simply said I don't want it to be the only future. This means I recognize and acknowledge its uses in gaming and beyond, and I also feel it is an inevitable technology that won't go away. But no one said they hope it fails.

The complaint is that the constant singing and praising for a luxury item among luxury items gets tiresome after a while, whether you're on board the VR hype train or not.

I agree with ccesarano 100%.

Just like the new Xbox & PS4 units will undoubtedly fracture the player base--no matter what Microsoft & Sony say--I feel that things like VR fracture the listener base in a similar way. At its core, no matter how neat I think this new technology is, it's an inescapable fact that it also divides the audience into haves & have nots in a way that board games don't (I only pick board games because Shawn mentioned that apparently a lot of listeners don't like hearing about those, either--for the record, I'm totally cool with board game talk).

The barrier to entry for a board game might be $100, at the very high end, but the barrier to entry for VR is likely ten times that or more, once you include the cost of the system required to run it. It's just a sh*tty fact of life that this new tech breaks along economic and class lines in a way that most of our collective hobby doesn't.

ccesarano wrote:
Starman3482 wrote:

People that can't afford it or have not tried it seem to want it to fail period.

None of us said we want it to fail. At worst I simply said I don't want it to be the only future. This means I recognize and acknowledge its uses in gaming and beyond, and I also feel it is an inevitable technology that won't go away. But no one said they hope it fails.

The complaint is that the constant singing and praising for a luxury item among luxury items gets tiresome after a while, whether you're on board the VR hype train or not.

I agree with Chris.

I also find it tiresome that the world seems to be broken up into "people who love VR" and "people who haven't tried it yet, but will surely love it because there is only one valid opinion on VR."

It brings my contrarian stripe out in a big way.

I don't want VR to fail. By all means, have a niche. There are plenty of them in the gaming world. But if VR becomes the primary way to consume games, kind of like how digital distribution is becoming the primary way to consume... almost everything, then I'm not going to be a happy gamer. Not because I can't afford it, but because I don't want it.

All of that said, I do hope that people come out of the woodwork and actually start commenting on the content of the episode. It would be a shame if any mention of VR inevitably dissolves into a discussion of whether there should even be an episode about it at all. Having one episode talking VR, even one once every quarter, is hardly the end of the world and I think the Conference Call Crew should not feel pressured to never discuss it ever at all.

I understand I'm the minority, but I enjoyed the podcast and want more VR talk!

I've been listening to this podcast since you guys broke away from Evil Avatar (i.e. the beginning!) and this is probably my favorite episode. I loved the enthusiasm, the discussion of the future of this technology and generally found your excitement infectious.

At the very least we should have regular VR updates from Shawn and Karla. Can't tell you how much I loved all of this episode.

VR is very much the tip of the spear right now, it'll be at least a couple years before it really penetrates the market in any meaningful way. Personally, the way I consume podcasts, what is talked about is often secondary to what the hosts can bring to the table and make something of it. I'll listen to a 3MA about a strategy game I'll never play because I like their perspectives and the themes they explore.

Be of good cheer you have dum dums like us spending too much money to "test" something now that will be twice as good and half the cost in no time. I find VR fascinating because it's an emerging market with a lot of blank spaces to fill. It's been a good while since video games have had a new paradigm to explore. I don't foresee a future where VR is the only platform, it's too involved a production for a ton of games that wouldn't benefit from the medium.

The podcast is essentially beholden to whatever we have time for and by extension, whatever interests us. Our job is to make it as engaging as possible. VR will come up again, but we're pretty self-regulating on flogging certain areas too much. Frankly, we did a big VR push because it was eating my brain and everyone was too busy to podcast.

MrMetonymy wrote:
ccesarano wrote:
Starman3482 wrote:

People that can't afford it or have not tried it seem to want it to fail period.

None of us said we want it to fail. At worst I simply said I don't want it to be the only future. This means I recognize and acknowledge its uses in gaming and beyond, and I also feel it is an inevitable technology that won't go away. But no one said they hope it fails.

The complaint is that the constant singing and praising for a luxury item among luxury items gets tiresome after a while, whether you're on board the VR hype train or not.

I agree with ccesarano 100%.

Just like the new Xbox & PS4 units will undoubtedly fracture the player base--no matter what Microsoft & Sony say--I feel that things like VR fracture the listener base in a similar way. At its core, no matter how neat I think this new technology is, it's an inescapable fact that it also divides the audience into haves & have nots in a way that board games don't (I only pick board games because Shawn mentioned that apparently a lot of listeners don't like hearing about those, either--for the record, I'm totally cool with board game talk).

The barrier to entry for a board game might be $100, at the very high end, but the barrier to entry for VR is likely ten times that or more, once you include the cost of the system required to run it. It's just a sh*tty fact of life that this new tech breaks along economic and class lines in a way that most of our collective hobby doesn't.

This is a completely valid and relevant point to make. It's possible that the cost will drop, making it accessible to more people, but at the moment it is rather like hyping how great an Alaskan cruise is. I totally get people wanting to skip this ep, and in retrospect I think we could have made time to talk about the price of entry.

Future show topic? Socio-economic status and how it intersects with gaming?

Certis wrote:

The podcast is essentially beholden to whatever we have time for and by extension, whatever interests us. Our job is to make it as engaging as possible. VR will come up again, but we're pretty self-regulating on flogging certain areas too much. Frankly, we did a big VR push because it was eating my brain and everyone was too busy to podcast. :drink:

For sure. You guys and gals have always been great about that.

I certainly don't expect you to cater to my whims regarding any discussion topics. I was just trying to articulate (as much for myself as for anyone else) why VR talk is more difficult to get something out of than talk about other games I haven't played, like say EU4.

I haven't ever played a 4X game, but I've played strategy games, and watching just a bit of the GWJ Plays gave me a good idea of what EU4 was about. I have tried watching some videos of VR games, but I get the impression that those videos tell me virtually nothing about the actual experience of playing those games. I hope to have one of the three headsets before the end of the year. Then I'll be able to join in on the fun! To use another bad analogy, listening to VR talk for me is like going to a comedy club, but the comedian on stage is telling the audience about an inside joke between herself and her friends. I'm sure it was hilarious, but you really had to be there

Brennil wrote:

Future show topic? Socio-economic status and how it intersects with gaming?

I think that would be absolutely fascinating. I remember working at GameStop and families coming in that would pick up last year's copy of Madden when the new one was releasing since they couldn't afford new game prices, or buying the Playstation 1 or N64 because it was cheap enough and they couldn't afford the PS2 or Xbox or GameCube. People that were always a generation behind in gaming because that's the best they could afford at a leisurely expenditure.

It has actually had me thinking of the sudden burst of theaters having higher ticket prices, but also installing recliner seats, moving seats, and other luxurious items in an effort to get more people into the theater rather than just waiting to stream from home, but you're ultimately reducing the number of potential people because an $8 Netflix subscription is a lot more affordable than a $10.50 ticket to just one movie for just one person.

Now that I've finished talking all that smack about VR, I forgot to mention how great it was to hear Karla on the show this week. She's pretty awesome. You should have her on more often :).

Good Show guys!
Im an Oculus user and love the thing.
For those on the fence I understand i was one of those people to , until i tried it. Every since i tried the dk2 i was hooked. I saved up quite a while for the unit but its worth in imo. I think Once psv4 or xbox vr comes out people will start to warm up to it.

Chiming in as someone who is a few years away from being on the VR bandwagon, loved the ep. Happy to hear about VR (and boardgames too) as it all sounds awesome but not ripe enough for me yet.
Calling it now though, live action VR porn is a thing, right? Well, within the next 15 years (spoilers for dark topic)

Spoiler:

live action VR torture of some description definitely animals, eventually people or even VR snuff will be a thing

(sorry to bring the mood down).
The premise of the film Strange Days (great movie btw) may be less science fiction than intended.

Can someone explain to me the low res stuff re: VR. Is it just that computing power doesn't have the grunt yet? So games at the moment are all in low res? How low res?

troubleshot wrote:

Calling it now though, live action VR porn is a thing, right?

A porn company named Naughty America was at E3 running a booth and described the focus tests conducted to get His and Her VR porn simulations as enticing as they could. Some of the discoveries are actually rather interesting. It also sounds like the company is taking it more seriously than you might expect.

Well, within the next 15 years (spoilers for dark topic)
Spoiler:

live action VR torture of some description definitely animals, eventually people or even VR snuff will be a thing

I brought that sort of thing up in the comments of an earlier podcast, though I referenced Otherland: City of Golden Shadow specifically. There is a virtual reality nightclub called Mister J's where some unsavory things happen. I have no doubt that sort of thing will exist in Virtual Reality. I mean, the next step of Facebook's is no doubt going to be to create the first VR Social Network, and who knows what will happen after that.

At the same time: roller coasters in virtual reality.

So, y'know, not all bad.

Brennil wrote:

Future show topic? Socio-economic status and how it intersects with gaming?

As someone who falls within the confusing descriptor of "struggling lower-middle class" after finally climbing out of the poverty level bracket after nearly 20 years in the work force, I would be very, very interested in discussing this. (With you, hopefully!)

... Especially with an oculus in the apartment.

I think one of the reasons you guys have never had much in the way of pushback to VR coverage so far is because it's been pretty lightweight. It's mostly been normal games, cut to whatever weird thing Alan has been doing, Sean commenting about getting murdered, then back to conventional stuff. It's been an interlude between what people expect.

I don't listen to DLC or We Have Concerns, just too many podcasts and not enough time, but if Jeff proselytises the way it sounds like he does then I can imagine it getting wearing. I like the comparison made above that it can be like someone talking about how awesome it is to get drunk. It's true, but you don't really want to hear about it unless there's a really good story to tell.

I'm sure there will be more coverage now, but I trust you guys to thread the needle. And Sean is going to keep everyone grounded unless he gets over his completely rational fear of murderers.

I'm interested in VR, but it will only be accessible to me when a $200 graphics card and a $200 headset are available, and on sale. So I hope VR succeeds.

Anyway, long ramble on the meta conversation over I have something about the actual content. of the 'cast.

I found the talk about the physicality of the Vive experience interesting. VR has always been this idea of the Lawnmower Man thing where the body completely disappears or is rendered irrelevant. However the Vive with room scale is something largely unexpected, it's more like the VR episode of Community. The Occulus thus far seems more Lawnmower Man-ish.

Also like deleting a file in that Community episode, digging in your virtual backpack sounds like it will be fun maybe 5 times.

Amoebic wrote:
Brennil wrote:

Future show topic? Socio-economic status and how it intersects with gaming?

As someone who falls within the confusing descriptor of "struggling lower-middle class" after finally climbing out of the poverty level bracket after nearly 20 years in the work force, I would be very, very interested in discussing this. (With you, hopefully!)

... Especially with an oculus in the apartment.

I'd also be interested in that. I'm "African lower middle class" so buying a $800 VR headset, or even a $400 console purely for the purpose of playing expensive games comes across as out of reach most of the time. I PC game because the PC is multi-purpose and if you don't mind being behind the curve in latest gen games and the tech to play them it's pretty cheap. I listen to the games we're playing section and l file away games I'll play in 2-4 years.