On Spanking

farley3k wrote:

I guess if the problems they see are less crime, less pregnancy, less drug use, less smoking, and better responsibility...well I wonder what these people really want!

Kids today to actually be worse, so they can stop having to think up with new lies about them. Faking outrage is tiring!

I think it is all part of the narrative among older folks to try to sell the idea that they deserve tax cuts because they "didn't need all the help kids have these days".

Paleocon wrote:

I think it is all part of the narrative among older folks to try to sell the idea that they deserve tax cuts because they "didn't need all the help kids have these days".

Which is just silly because they are the only ones who vote so they don't to sell the idea!

They just need to convince millennials that it is pointless to vote and they will be golden....and I think they have done that.

farley3k wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I think it is all part of the narrative among older folks to try to sell the idea that they deserve tax cuts because they "didn't need all the help kids have these days".

Which is just silly because they are the only ones who vote so they don't to sell the idea!

They just need to convince millennials that it is pointless to vote and they will be golden....and I think they have done that.

So far as I can tell 18-25 year olds have never voted in significant numbers.

IMAGE(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JXjkR2PmoGQ/UCGSI2RW02I/AAAAAAAABT8/RRXMt3a2v_4/s1600/turnout.jpg)

The highest turnout for them was the year they got the vote, and even then it failed to brake 50%.

On the topic I would understand people who where spanked spanking their own children more if I ever encountered anyone saying it had a positive impact on them. I've never run across that though. I was spanked and I know damn well it was useless at best, all it taught me was to hide whatever behavior triggered it better.

On that note Zona, things I learned from spanking:

Don't get caught
Fess up before you get caught if it's an inevitability
Take your licks, get sent to your room, books are there
Authority can't watch everywhere

I was spanked very rarely, as in I can probably use one hand to count all the times.

I didn't learn to hide the behavior or anything like that. I just quit that crap. I'm not saying it worked for me necessarily as I'm sure there were other ways my parents could have gotten the point across.

I have no plans on spanking my kid. I do think that a light pat on the backside to get her attention is ok though.

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

Maq wrote:

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

Maq wrote:

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

I kind of agree here... Thus one of the reasons I like my mom's method of raising my sister and me. If there was something that needed to be done, an explanation of why was given usually. If we had ideas on how to better accomplish that, we could voice them, then mom would counter with how that did or did not work. Being able to examine such thigns that way has made me one of the people at work who is generally brought in to either examine new policies/procedures for feedback and served me quite well in my marriage until my partner decided to stop talking about what the problem was. I wasn't/am not always right... But can usually provide some feedback that makes its way into plans going forward.

I can still be passive, mostly when I just don't especially care how something gets done, but it did stop me from being submissive about decisions.

Edit:Seriously I pressed quote once...

Yeah, there's a bug somewhere in the new code that causes double quotes. I've been trying to replicate it but can't.

Maq wrote:

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

The statement is true but the opposite is also true. Obedient people do honorable things at the command of good people. Obedient people have great things done for them by loving parents. Everybody knows someone that is the scum of the Earth that answers to no one. Everybody seen people that let their loyalty turn a blind eye to injustice.

There is a difference from being a mindless drone and respectful to your parents or superior. Is obedience a horrible thing when it stops a kid from running with scissors, walking into the street without looking both ways, talking to strangers, playing with matches, and any number of things that can get them killed or hurt?

All I'm saying is obedience isn't a negative trait in of itself. Mindless obedience is a negative trait.

Baron Of Hell wrote:
Maq wrote:

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

The statement is true but the opposite is also true. Obedient people do honorable things at the command of good people. Obedient people have great things done for them by loving parents. Everybody knows someone that is the scum of the Earth that answers to no one. Everybody seen people that let their loyalty turn a blind eye to injustice.

There is a difference from being a mindless drone and respectful to your parents or superior. Is obedience a horrible thing when it stops a kid from running with scissors, walking into the street without looking both ways, talking to strangers, playing with matches, and any number of things that can get them killed or hurt?

All I'm saying is obedience isn't a negative trait in of itself. Mindless obedience is a negative trait.

I think what you're getting at is that there's obediance, and there's Obediance. The former is the ability to take direction, the latter is uncritical and automatic acquiescence to authority.

I suspect Maq is talking big-O Obedience.

Jonman wrote:
Baron Of Hell wrote:
Maq wrote:

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

The statement is true but the opposite is also true. Obedient people do honorable things at the command of good people. Obedient people have great things done for them by loving parents. Everybody knows someone that is the scum of the Earth that answers to no one. Everybody seen people that let their loyalty turn a blind eye to injustice.

There is a difference from being a mindless drone and respectful to your parents or superior. Is obedience a horrible thing when it stops a kid from running with scissors, walking into the street without looking both ways, talking to strangers, playing with matches, and any number of things that can get them killed or hurt?

All I'm saying is obedience isn't a negative trait in of itself. Mindless obedience is a negative trait.

I think what you're getting at is that there's obediance, and there's Obediance. The former is the ability to take direction, the latter is uncritical and automatic acquiescence to authority.

I suspect Maq is talking big-O Obedience.

People who beat their kids are usually looking to instill big-O Obedience.

Paleocon wrote:

Mostly, the justification for this is the anecdotal statement made by many that "I was spanked and I turned out okay".

My favourite part about the "I had to put up with X and I turned out okay" argument is that it almost always comes out of the mouth of someone who actually is a mental wreck.

Stengah wrote:
Jonman wrote:
Baron Of Hell wrote:
Maq wrote:

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

The statement is true but the opposite is also true. Obedient people do honorable things at the command of good people. Obedient people have great things done for them by loving parents. Everybody knows someone that is the scum of the Earth that answers to no one. Everybody seen people that let their loyalty turn a blind eye to injustice.

There is a difference from being a mindless drone and respectful to your parents or superior. Is obedience a horrible thing when it stops a kid from running with scissors, walking into the street without looking both ways, talking to strangers, playing with matches, and any number of things that can get them killed or hurt?

All I'm saying is obedience isn't a negative trait in of itself. Mindless obedience is a negative trait.

I think what you're getting at is that there's obediance, and there's Obediance. The former is the ability to take direction, the latter is uncritical and automatic acquiescence to authority.

I suspect Maq is talking big-O Obedience.

People who beat their kids are usually looking to instill big-O Obedience.

That's what I'm getting at, yes. I would categorize small-o obedience as "co-operation", personally. I raise my kids to be co-operative, to understand that I ask things of them when it's important and try not to ask of them things that are not.

kuddles wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Mostly, the justification for this is the anecdotal statement made by many that "I was spanked and I turned out okay".

My favourite part about the "I had to put up with X and I turned out okay" argument is that it almost always comes out of the mouth of someone who actually is a mental wreck.

Never mind the fact that they refuse the consider the possibility that they might have turned out better had they not had to put up with X.

My mum has said to me a few times when I'm strapping my kid into a car seat - "we never put any of you in car seats", to which I reply "yes, and a terrible number of children died in car accidents in the 70s, and aren't you thankful that I wasn't one of them?"

Stengah wrote:
Jonman wrote:

I suspect Maq is talking big-O Obedience.

People who beat their kids are usually looking to instill big-O Obedience.

IMAGE(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/719/287/dea.gif)

Jonman wrote:

My mum has said to me a few times when I'm strapping my kid into a car seat - "we never put any of you in car seats", to which I reply "yes, and a terrible number of children died in car accidents in the 70s, and aren't you thankful that I wasn't one of them?"

Precisely. The fact that children demonstrate resilience is no excuse for abuse or neglect.

I often wonder what I could have achieved had I had the benefit of the upbringing my nephews are currently experiencing. When I see my brother and sister actually taking the time to reason with their kids instead of beating the snail snot out of them out of frustration, I feel a complicated mixture of anger and regret (that something that seems so natural and intuitive was so alien to my own parents) and pride (that my siblings managed to jettison dysfunctional generational programming).

Sean Connery wrote:

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong about hitting a woman – although I don't recommend doing it in the same way that you'd hit a man. An openhanded slap is justified – if all other alternatives fail and there has been plenty of warning. If a woman is a bitch, or hysterical, or bloody-minded continually, then I'd do it. I think a man has to be slightly advanced, ahead of the woman. I really do – by virtue of the way a man is built, if nothing else. But I wouldn't call myself sadistic.

Previous generations thought differently about things. It doesn't make them right.

I would be glad to see spanking eliminated entirely. We teach our kids that if they hit anyone, they should expect them to hit back. We sometimes remind our son that he's twice the size and age as his sister, but he has the right to protect his personal space and his body. Still the main idea is, if someone hits you or vice versa, it's on.. Period.

Both my wife and I were disciplined physically and I've had to restrain or otherwise physically limit my kids in situations where there was a danger or no other alternative. I'm happy to say that striking/spanking is a non-option with us. Responsiveness and cooperation are what we lead with while they work. Then timeouts and loss of privileges when they don't. They seem to be doing fine.

Maq wrote:

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

As a guy who grew up with working class parents, I think some of the emphasis on obedience is plain survival. My dad told me about foremen slapping around workers who didn't move fast enough when given commands, and in the Army I certainly got my share of "wall to wall counseling" as a private with a smart ass streak. And the police are very quick to beat the sh*t out of non-rich kids if you don't instantly follow commands. I've heard from Black friends it's even worse in their case with parents seeing spanking as a way of keeping their kids from being shot.

I'll put my hand up to say I have no strong view on the matter.

I confess that in the past I have "spanked" my children (one swift but restrained smack) for heinous behaviour but not for unreasonable conduct; but like my parents before me, it is not my disciplinary measure of choice. Positive reinforcement is better and more proactive in preventing disciplinary action.

I will say however that a parent who raises children to be mindful of civil society and polite behaviour is preferable to one that lets their children run unchecked bullying or injuring their peers.

jdzappa wrote:
Maq wrote:

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

As a guy who grew up with working class parents, I think some of the emphasis on obedience is plain survival. My dad told me about foremen slapping around workers who didn't move fast enough when given commands, and in the Army I certainly got my share of "wall to wall counseling" as a private with a smart ass streak. And the police are very quick to beat the sh*t out of non-rich kids if you don't instantly follow commands. I've heard from Black friends it's even worse in their case with parents seeing spanking as a way of keeping their kids from being shot.

One of the many eye opening things I witnessed as a gas station owner in inner city Baltimore was precisely how the language of violence in the predominantly African American urban community is part of child rearing. I have seen mothers beat the everloving snail snot out of wailing kids right in my convenience store. And when I tell them that they can't do that anywhere I can see them, they tell me to mind my own business. It was depressing.

Part of me wonders if this contributes to the evidenced antisocial behavior I saw. The research certainly seems to indicate it does.

jdzappa wrote:

As a guy who grew up with working class parents, I think some of the emphasis on obedience is plain survival.

I can definitely see that. My household was rather strict when I was a kid, and I assumed it was just meanness. But looking back now and knowing what my parents went through, I can see that at least part of it came from a fear of what would happen to their kids if we didn't conform to the status quo or disrespected authority figures.

When I was in preschool a kid poked me with a needle. The teacher took the needle and poked him in the hand with it. I don't think I would have said anything if I known she would do that.

Paleocon wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Maq wrote:

I don't get people who want to raise obedient kids. I think obedience is one of the the worst traits you can instill in a person. Obedient people do terrible things at the whim of terrible people. Obedient people have horrible things done to them at the hands of overbearing partners.

As a guy who grew up with working class parents, I think some of the emphasis on obedience is plain survival. My dad told me about foremen slapping around workers who didn't move fast enough when given commands, and in the Army I certainly got my share of "wall to wall counseling" as a private with a smart ass streak. And the police are very quick to beat the sh*t out of non-rich kids if you don't instantly follow commands. I've heard from Black friends it's even worse in their case with parents seeing spanking as a way of keeping their kids from being shot.

One of the many eye opening things I witnessed as a gas station owner in inner city Baltimore was precisely how the language of violence in the predominantly African American urban community is part of child rearing. I have seen mothers beat the everloving snail snot out of wailing kids right in my convenience store. And when I tell them that they can't do that anywhere I can see them, they tell me to mind my own business. It was depressing.

Part of me wonders if this contributes to the evidenced antisocial behavior I saw. The research certainly seems to indicate it does.

It does. The research has long supported that fact. My wife studies and teaches in the field not discounting the fact that she is now raising three children. Basically, children who never learn to express themselves and explore their full range of emotions cannot control them. Preventing children from having their tantrums is actually quite harmful to them for this reason. They literally cannot deal with minor slights without completely loosing control. While violence in the very short term solves a problem for parents of certain economic or ethnic backgrounds for understandable reasons on one level, in the long run is actually creates huge harm to the individual and the wider community.

As the parent model has changed, violent crime has gone down. We also see communities where the older parent model is adheres to this belief, violent crime remains an issue. I'm sure if you thought about this for a minute you recognise the behaviour now that you know what to look for.