Israel catch all

I can't speak for the rest of GWJ , Sonny, but your posts often read to the outsider as straight up propaganda, devoid of nuance and balance. To the extent that I'm sure I'm not the only Goodjer who honestly has no idea whether you're a well meaning Israeli or a professional Psi-ops agent in the employ of the Israeli government.

Your unswerving refusal to contemplate that Palestinian actors have even a shred of a legitimate grudge against Israel makes most everything else you say easily written off as either blind patriotism or intentional propoganda.

Jonman wrote:

I can't speak for the rest of GWJ , Sonny, but your posts often read to the outsider as straight up propaganda, devoid of nuance and balance. To the extent that I'm sure I'm not the only Goodjer who honestly has no idea whether you're a well meaning Israeli or a professional Psi-ops agent in the employ of the Israeli government.

I'm sorry it comes off that way, these topics are close to my heart and some bullsh*t posted here take out the worst of me sometime. I don't know how I can prove I'm just a regular Israeli. Each time I tried it didn't go so well.

Jonman wrote:

Your unswerving refusal to contemplate that Palestinian actors have even a shred of a legitimate grudge against Israel

I disagree with this part.

I said more than once that I understand the Palestinians and sympathize with them on many levels. Some parts I don't understand but I sure do my best to listen and always have a dialogue.
I also said that I recognize Israel being wrong on many levels. I criticize my country internally even more than I defend it externally

What I really can't accept is people demonizing Israel and show only the very worst about it (even if it has little to do with reality), like Paleocon and a couple of others here have been doing for god knows how long.

You guys have to understand that there is actually real life here, we're not drowning in these politics 100% of the time. I have arab colleagues, neighbors, friends. Good friends.
Israel isn't portrayed in the foreign media as a normal country but there is normal life here, there is coexistence and there are good people here. If you really want a "catch all" thread about Israel, try to disconnect from the constant demonization and deligitimization you see on the internet/media and think about it that as a start.

Maybe if you vocalized your concerns externally rather than only having those conversations in your head before going back to defending Israel... things might be much easier here.

Also, calling any human a savage is loaded and problematic as hell... and, again, assumes an either ignorant or bestial motivation to that attack... and leaves no room, yet again, to the idea that Israel's own policies and stated goals, like annexing land and kicking current residents off based on their ethnic background off it, may be contributing to the violence.

Demosthenes wrote:

Maybe if you vocalized your concerns externally rather than only having those conversations in your head before going back to defending Israel... things might be much easier here.

Also, calling any human a savage is loaded and problematic as hell... and, again, assumes an either ignorant or bestial motivation to that attack... and leaves no room, yet again, to the idea that Israel's own policies and stated goals, like annexing land and kicking current residents off based on their ethnic background off it, may be contributing to the violence.

I criticized Israel on this forum and it was ignored.

There is no contradiction in my eyes between calling a terrorist a savage and acknowledging that some of the Israeli policies are wrong.

There are means of resistance and even war. Going into a coffee house and spraying civilians only because they are Israelis then celebrating their death on the street with fireworks and candy is not one of those ways. It's pure terrorism and as I said many times, one can never accept terrorism.
You might feel like 'savages' is a harsh word for terrorists? How about immoral? You can pick on my terminology but the fact of the matter is this terrorism is taking place and trying to justify it is loaded and problematic as hell.

You call them savages, I call them folks who feel like they've lost the ability to have an impact except with bullets and bombs.

I don't like their methods of resistance at all, but when your country is literally stealing and forcing people off land... and is trying to grow support to do so again (because it worked SO WELL the last few times).

The folks in that cafe are very likely not part of that decision. They didn't deserve their deaths. I have sympathy for their families and friends.

But the country and government of Israel are continuing to push people into exactly this scenario by continuing to disenfranchise people for having been born Palestinian. For continuing to believe that they have the right to land that others own, live on, and make livelihoods on. That they have the right to starve the majority for the actions of the minority.

Sidenote: Got a source on all that "they're celebrating our deaths again! WHAT MONSTERS!" stuff? Something that's not from a clearly pro-Israel site? If not, please stop repeating it. Trump still maintains the fiction that Muslims were celebrating 9/11 here, and I'm really not OK with those accusations without solid sourcing.

Edit: This thread is shameful. I forgot why I didn't bother participating.

I was not expecting to hear this on the radio this morning while driving.

In 1948, Zionist militias expelled over 700,000 Palestinians from their villages and towns. The event, and the ongoing destruction and occupation of Palestine are referred to as the Nakba – the catastrophe. How did the events of 1948 shape Palestine and its diaspora? And generations later, how are Palestinians fighting to return home?

On this edition of Making Contact we reflect on the Nakba, the Naksa, and the future of Palestine.

Featuring:
Rami Almeghari, FSRN reporter
Ghazi Misleh, author of I Am from There and I Have Memories
Rabab Abdulhadi, Professor of Ethnic Studies and Senior Scholar of the Arab and Muslim Ethnicities and Diasporas Initiative at San Francisco State University
Dina from Rammun
Mohannad from Ramle
Remi Kanazi, poet and author of Before the Next Bomb Drops.

http://www.radioproject.org/2016/06/...

maverickz wrote:

Look at the shoes you're filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more

What we've got here is failure to communicate.

I don't know how I can prove I'm just a regular Israeli. Each time I tried it didn't go so well.

Maybe because you only show up in Israel threads, and only when something unusually noxious has happened?

That looks a lot like someone getting paid to manage opinions.

A friend asked me to support the BDS (Boycott Divest Sanctions) program on Israel. I told him I had no interest. He asked why and I replied that I have no interest in altering Israel's behavior. Their atrocities are a matter of internal and national policy. If they wish to commit them, it is their business.

I just feel that, as an American, I and none of my countrymen have a compelling national interest to support their decisions. We need to wash our hands of that mess.

Yesterday, a Palestinian terrorist broke into an Israeli house and murdered a 13 year old girl, Hallel Yaffe Ariel, in her sleep.

IMAGE(http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2016/06/hallel3-e1467275356810.jpg)
IMAGE(https://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1528974/hallel-yaffa-ariel.jpg?w=368)

The terrorist was killed. His mother praised the murder using the old blood libel about him "protecting Al Aqza".
The terrorist was also presented as a hero in the Palestinian media.

Additional two people were injured in Netanya yesterday in another terrorism act.
Today a father was killed in front of his family when Palestinians opened fire on Israeli cars a few hours ago. The mother, their teenager son and a 1 year old baby were all injured.
Needless to say, all victims are civilians. This makes it 40 dead Israelis in the past 10 months, since the big wave of terrorism began.

A Muslim activist wrote an incredibly brave piece today. Maybe when it's coming from her and not from me, some people will treat Palestinian terrorism and murder of Israelis simply for being Israelis as actual terrorism and not some brave form of just resistance.

Full blog of Nadiya Al-Noor

I am a Muslim, and I know that when it comes to Palestinian terrorism, too many Muslims are hypocrites. I have seen firsthand the casual, destructive anti-Semitism that plagues the Muslim community. I have heard it from the mouths of our religious leaders, from our politicians, and even from our otherwise peaceful, liberal Muslim activists. I have witnessed in horror the desperate attempts to justify Palestinian terrorism from people who I once respected. Why? Why do we decry all other types of terrorism, but bend over backwards to legitimize violence against Israeli Jews?

We blame it on “Zionism.” We blame it on “occupation.” We blame it on “apartheid.” We lap up the tired, anti-Semitic lies fed to us by Al-Jazeera: “Israelis cut off the water supply!” “Israelis are going to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque!” We’re not even willing to admit that Israel is a country. We call it “Palestine.” We refuse to call violence against Israelis “terrorism,” and we hypocritically scream, “Resistance is not a crime!”

Let me tell you something. Stabbing pregnant women in the stomach is not “resistance.” Shooting people at a cafe is not “resistance.” Driving your car into pedestrians is not “resistance.” Bombing a bus is not “resistance.” Breaking into a woman’s home and murdering her in front of her children is not “resistance.” And stabbing a little girl to death in the one place where she was supposed to be safe is certainly not “resistance.” Terrorism is not resistance. Terrorism is an unjustifiable crime.

I *know* it's terrorism, and it's despicable. I also know that Israel commits atrocities against Palestinians, and I feel that Israel has much more capability for curbing it's own tendencies towards abuse, and thus a larger responsibility to do so. In a nutshell, that's the difference.

When Israel uses Palestinian attacks to justify their abusive actions towards Palestinians, that just perpetuates the cycle. Someone's got to break out of it, and of the two polities, Israel has by far the most capability to do so. And yet it actively refuses to take steps to ease the pressure on Palestinians.

If Israel were acting positively and in good faith to fix the situation that's been declining since the early 80's, I'd give it far more respect. At this point, however, I have no faith that the current government has any interest at all in coming to a peaceful settlement with the Palestinians.

I hold Israel to a higher standard because I remember the ideals of it's founding and of the Zionist movement through the 70's. I remember when Israel was better than this, and it hurts to see the direction it's taken.

Robear wrote:

If Israel were acting positively and in good faith to fix the situation that's been declining since the early 80's, I'd give it far more respect. At this point, however, I have no faith that the current government has any interest at all in coming to a peaceful settlement with the Palestinians.

You skipped the incredible offers of peace by Israeli prime ministers Rabin, Barak and Olmert. A country, most territories back, settling on Jerusalem and solution to the refugees issues. These were good will showings through the 90's and 00's, which the Palestinians were not brave enough to accept and chose terrorism.

This is one of the reasons we have a more extreme government today (unfortunately) and I'm not sure any of these offers will be discussed any time soon.

Terrorism on the part of either side is horrible and wrong. I shouldn't have to say that, but I am because if I don't, my following statements will lead to me being accused of basically being a supporter of Palestinian terrorism.

sonny615 wrote:

The terrorist was also presented as a hero in the Palestinian media.

You're gonna need to cite a Palestinian source for this, I can't find one.

Meanwhile, Israel is taking a very measured and careful response to the attack:

Immediately after the attack, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu held a security briefing with his new defense minister, Avigdor Lieberman. It was decided to seal off the assailant’s village and to revoke permits to enter Israel for work for all members of his clan. Procedures for demolishing his family’s home have begun, a statement from the prime minister’s bureau said.

Just to be clear, that is the nation of Israel responding with state-sponsored terrorism to an individual act of terrorism by a teenager (the attacker was 19). Israel is also using this girl's death as an excuse to push for more aggressive land theft from Palestine.

Yeah, that's really not going to dissuade Palestinians (who already have little to nothing left to lose) from attacking Israelis by any means available.

I lived in Jerusalem for a few years in '82-'84. Tension existed back then and you felt like you lived in a police state with soldiers on every corner and on every form of public transportation. Despite that I loved my time there and found both Israeli and Palestinian people of like mind. It's terrible that religion and politics have destroyed any chance of any sort of peace in that area and what we are reduced to is Terror fighting Terror which will never have any sort of resolution (peaceful or violent) It will just go on for years and years.

I have no answers or any sort of resolution.. blame is on both sides.

I have a regular lunchtime walking partner on Tuesdays at work. He is a former Israeli paratrooper who jokingly calls me an honorary member of tribe.

We got to talking about the whole "right to exist" thing and I told him that I thought the entire term was an invented one with no real meaning outside of an ideological context of America's supposed obligation to Israel. He laughed and said that when he was growing up in Israel, even in the fairly liberal city of Tel Aviv, teachers would tell him that Israel's "right to exist" superceded the right to residency of Arabs that lived their prior to European Jewish arrival. That struck him as odd then.

He says now that he thinks the only things necessary for a national "right to exist" is a collective concept of nation and the willingness to die for it. And in that sense, he thinks both the Israelis and the Palestinians have a national right to exist on the same dirt. He isn't sure how to resolve this, but is glad he doesn't have to pull a trigger anymore.

sonny615 wrote:
Robear wrote:

If Israel were acting positively and in good faith to fix the situation that's been declining since the early 80's, I'd give it far more respect. At this point, however, I have no faith that the current government has any interest at all in coming to a peaceful settlement with the Palestinians.

You skipped the incredible offers of peace by Israeli prime ministers Rabin, Barak and Olmert. A country, most territories back, settling on Jerusalem and solution to the refugees issues. These were good will showings through the 90's and 00's, which the Palestinians were not brave enough to accept and chose terrorism.

IMO, Barak was very reasonable in negotiations, and the failure of the 2000 Camp David Summit stung badly.

I of course sent him this.

You're gonna need to cite a Palestinian source for this, I can't find one.

Simple search on google...

Let's start off by the official Fatah page (you know, the government):
IMAGE(http://i66.tinypic.com/90n61h.jpg)

Look how the topic in the Palestinian media is the Palestinian. The 13 year old girl who was killed is merely a "settler".
This is exactly like reporting: 8 Saudi men killed during a plane crash in 9/11, thousands American colonizers also killed.
IMAGE(http://i68.tinypic.com/70gqxk.jpg)

Immediately after the attack, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu held a security briefing with his new defense minister, Avigdor Lieberman. It was decided to seal off the assailant’s village and to revoke permits to enter Israel for work for all members of his clan. Procedures for demolishing his family’s home have begun, a statement from the prime minister’s bureau said.

Just to be clear, that is the nation of Israel responding with state-sponsored terrorism to an individual act of terrorism by a teenager (the attacker was 19). Israel is also using this girl's death as an excuse to push for more aggressive land theft from Palestine.

Yeah, that's really not going to dissuade Palestinians (who already have little to nothing left to lose) from attacking Israelis by any means available.

You start your post with saying terrorism is horrible yet you end it by victimizing the terrorist.
There are many terrorists who are young, their minds are brainwashed by the incredible hatred and incitement in the Palestinian media and social networks. They do it not because they are hungry, poor or "have no other choice". This terrorist, for example, lived in a 2 story house that I will never be able to afford. His own mother said he was "defending Al Qutz" (is Al Qutz even being attacked?).
They are simply brainwashed, similarly to what ISIS is doing to their own kids in Iraq and Syria.

You may agree or disagree with the Israeli policy but all terrorist know the consequences. They can simply not commit terror acts, how how about that?

sonny615 wrote:
You're gonna need to cite a Palestinian source for this, I can't find one.

Simple search on google...

Let's start off by the official Fatah page (you know, the government):
IMAGE(http://i66.tinypic.com/90n61h.jpg)

Look how the topic in the Palestinian media is the Palestinian. The 13 year old girl who was killed is merely a "settler".
This is exactly like reporting: 8 Saudi men killed during a plane crash in 9/11, thousands American colonizers also killed.
IMAGE(http://i68.tinypic.com/70gqxk.jpg)

Immediately after the attack, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu held a security briefing with his new defense minister, Avigdor Lieberman. It was decided to seal off the assailant’s village and to revoke permits to enter Israel for work for all members of his clan. Procedures for demolishing his family’s home have begun, a statement from the prime minister’s bureau said.

Just to be clear, that is the nation of Israel responding with state-sponsored terrorism to an individual act of terrorism by a teenager (the attacker was 19). Israel is also using this girl's death as an excuse to push for more aggressive land theft from Palestine.

Yeah, that's really not going to dissuade Palestinians (who already have little to nothing left to lose) from attacking Israelis by any means available.

You start your post with saying terrorism is horrible yet you end it by victimizing the terrorist.
There are many terrorists who are young, their minds are brainwashed by the incredible hatred and incitement in the Palestinian media and social networks. They do it not because they are hungry, poor or "have no other choice". This terrorist, for example, lived in a 2 story house that I will never be able to afford. His own mother said he was "defending Al Qutz" (is Al Qutz even being attacked?).
They are simply brainwashed, similarly to what ISIS is doing to their own kids in Iraq and Syria.

You may agree or disagree with the Israeli policy but all terrorist know the consequences. They can simply not commit terror acts, how how about that?

Ok, you don't seem to be getting this.

When we're asking for you to cite your sources, don't give us pictures of links to click that we can't click.

Give news articles that show specific examples of what you're alleging occurring.

The first picture is a damn Facebook page for crying out loud. That is the literal definition of unreliable source. Anyone could get on there and create anything.

You start your post with saying terrorism is horrible yet you end it by victimizing the terrorist.

No. We cannot keep going over this. Destroying an entire family's home and causing an entire village to be pauperized is who is being victimized here, along with the parents of that poor girl. Her death is tragic. The reaction to her death is a larger tragedy, mostly because it's exactly the kind of thing that disenfranchises even more Palestinians, which will likely lead to more deaths as more and more people feel violence is the only form of expression they have while their homes and livelihoods are stripped from them for the actions of a 19 year old that they may not have even known, much less have any knowledge about any attack he planned and carried out.

I skipped the ups and downs of peace proposals (I also skipped the assassination of Rabin) because no matter what good faith and terrible deeds existed on both sides in the past, we are *here* today. You likewise don't mention the moral and national power argument, although you've spoken about that in the past. Which I respect.

But however Israel got here, the situation needs to be fixed, and I agree with you that the current government has little incentive to look backwards to more accommodating offers (beyond, you know, morality and decency). The politics in Israel will continue to move to the right as the violence continues, and the same thing will happen in the Territories. But eventually, unless the situation is changed by Israel, the power struggle will end in Israel's favor. However, it will be violent. Israel will trade it's tattered morality for security one last time.

sonny615 wrote:
You're gonna need to cite a Palestinian source for this, I can't find one.

Simple search on google...

I searched as extensively as I could on Google. Still haven't found actual Palestinian media that "presented the terrorist as a hero" (your words, not mine). Your post didn't just move the goalposts, it swapped out the goalposts for something entirely different.

sonny615 wrote:

You may agree or disagree with the Israeli policy but all terrorist know the consequences. They can simply not commit terror acts, how how about that?

You may agree or disagree with my position that both sides are committing acts of terror, but the fact is that Israel's responses that I cited above are international war crimes under article 33 of the fourth Geneva convention, which Israel signed in 1951. Ergo, state-sponsored terrorism.

Yes, I know that my own nation has committed war crimes in the middle east, and I am even more furious and vocal about that.

Fatah official facebook page

Palestinian news agency referring the terrorist as a martyr

Another example, El Manaar

There are many more, google it.

Demosthenes wrote:

Destroying an entire family's home and causing an entire village to be pauperized is who is being victimized here, along with the parents of that poor girl. Her death is tragic. The reaction to her death is a larger tragedy, mostly because it's exactly the kind of thing that disenfranchises even more Palestinians, which will likely lead to more deaths as more and more people feel violence is the only form of expression they have while their homes and livelihoods are stripped from them for the actions of a 19 year old that they may not have even known, much less have any knowledge about any attack he planned and carried out.

The reaction to her death isn't a larger tragedy! How can destroying a house is worse than killing a 13 year old girl in her sleep? What the f*ck is wrong with you?
Again, they can simply choose not to slaughter Jews and not suffer the consequences. Why don't you see that as a viable option?

I think it is long past time that we acknowledge that Israel is at war with the Palestinian people. That is, of course, their prerogative as a matter of internal politics (as it was Milosevic's prerogative in Serbia to wage war against his own ethnic Croats), but it is NOT a war we, as Americans, have any moral obligation to participate in. Our support for Israel makes us active combatants in that conflict and legitmates us as targets.

sonny615 wrote:

Fatah official facebook page

Palestinian news agency referring the terrorist as a martyr

Another example, El Manaar

There are many more, google it.

Demosthenes wrote:

Destroying an entire family's home and causing an entire village to be pauperized is who is being victimized here, along with the parents of that poor girl. Her death is tragic. The reaction to her death is a larger tragedy, mostly because it's exactly the kind of thing that disenfranchises even more Palestinians, which will likely lead to more deaths as more and more people feel violence is the only form of expression they have while their homes and livelihoods are stripped from them for the actions of a 19 year old that they may not have even known, much less have any knowledge about any attack he planned and carried out.

The reaction to her death isn't a larger tragedy! How can destroying a house is worse than killing a 13 year old girl in her sleep? What the f*ck is wrong with you?
Again, they can simply choose not to slaughter Jews and not suffer the consequences. Why don't you see that as a viable option?

What is wrong with me is that I see a death as a tragedy. I see the Israeli government apparently trying to create more militants which will lead to more deaths as a larger tragedy, as it will perpetuate this cycle of violence. They're not just destroying a house, they are taking away the home of innocent family members for the action of a single person, they're cutting off an entire village from employment for the action of a single resident.

That girl's death is a tragedy.

Israel basically trying to set up the next violent attack while decrying violent attacks while using violent attacks against others, however, is a cycle of violence that will be far larger than a single death (no matter how tragic that death is).

I agree with Paleocon. It's a slow-moving war.

We've already pointed out that anyone can run a Facebook page, but I am trying to find out who runs that page because the propaganda on it is disgusting. If that really is run by (and posts authored by) the leadership of the Fatah party, then that is pretty damning. I would not call this proof, but it is certainly something that needs to be followed up.

Really? Where?

Israeli Soldiers Kills Teenager Involved in Alleged Stabbing near Hebron

HEBRON, June 30, 2016 (WAFA) – Israeli soldiers Thursday killed a 17-year-old from Bani Naim town east of Hebron under the pretext of carrying out a stabbing attack in an illegal Israeli settlement on the outskirts of Hebron south of the West Bank.

Security sources told WAFA that armed Israeli soldiers opened fire at Mohammad Mahmoud Tarayra for allegedly stabbing an Israeli settler.

According to Israeli army sources a Palestinian entered the illegal Israeli settlement and stabbed an Israeli girl, who was later identified as 13-year-old Hallel Yafa Ariel, in her bedroom.

The spokesperson told Maan that Tarayra was then shot and killed, and that two settlers had been wounded and transferred to a hospital.

The girl had suffered from serious stab wounds and died in the hospital after being admitted in a "very severe and dangerous condition" and resuscitation efforts failed.

Following the incident, the Israeli army closed the entrance to Bani Naim and surrounded the house of Tarayra. The teenager's father was detained and his brothers were handed notices to appear before the Israeli intelligence.

Local sources told WAFA Israeli forces raided the town and set up checkpoints at the entrances to nearby towns east of Hebron.

Since October 2015, more than 220 Palestinians were killed by Israeli armed forces mainly under the pretext of involvement in attempted stabbings or hit and run attacks.

Israeli and international human rights groups repeatedly denounced Israel’s shoot-to-kill policy by Israeli forces, which resulted in the death of many Palestinians who did not constitute a threat or who could have been apprehended without the use of lethal force.

M.H

sonny615 wrote:

Another example, El Manaar

1 - That's a Lebanese source, not Palestinian.
2 - That is a media arm of Hezbollah, not a legitimate media organization. You wouldn't accept me pointing to an Israeli terrorist organization as a legitimate Israeli media organization, so don't be a hypocrite and expect me to accept this from you.

sonny615 wrote:

There are many more, google it.

Nope, not yet. Feel free to keep trying though. And if you think I won't admit when I'm proven wrong, just ask Robear, Paleocon, JDZappa, Hypatian, or any of the others who have corrected me in the past when I was basing my opinion on false information.

Farscry wrote:

We've already pointed out that anyone can run a Facebook page, but I am trying to find out who runs that page because the propaganda on it is disgusting. If that really is run by (and posts authored by) the leadership of the Fatah party, then that is pretty damning. I would not call this proof, but it is certainly something that needs to be followed up.

It is the official page, it is referred to as such in all the media.
Ironically, it's Fatah, who are percieved as the peaceful one among Palestinian parties\terror organizations.

Farscry wrote:

Really? Where?

Here, not once but twice (using google translate):
IMAGE(http://i67.tinypic.com/15ev5mx.jpg)

Seriously, if your argument is that there is no incitement and hate in the Palestinian media - you're going to lose. I can provide countless links with much worse stuff.
It's everywhere in the Palestinian society - schools, kindergartens, news, tv shows, you name it.
This is exactly why these kids decide to go stab a jew and become a martyr. The Palestinian government has to stop growing a generation of terrorist and has to start accepting that we are two peoples living side by side, start thinking about a better future for its youth and for peace. Terrorism only takes them away from their goal of having a country.

sonny615 wrote:
Farscry wrote:

Really? Where?

Here, not once but twice (using google translate):
IMAGE(http://i67.tinypic.com/15ev5mx.jpg)

Oof. That's rather disturbing that their own English translation swaps "martyr" out of the text but a neutral translation reveals it sitting right there. And that's a .ps domain site, so that's about as legitimately Palestinian as it gets.

That's inexcusable; they should at least refer to him as a criminal, not a martyr. I concede your point, and thank you for helping me see this.

sonny615 wrote:

Seriously, if your argument is that there is no incitement and hate in the Palestinian media - you're going to lose. I can provide countless links with much worse stuff.
It's everywhere in the Palestinian society - schools, kindergartens, news, tv shows, you name it.
This is exactly why these kids decide to go stab a jew and become a martyr. The Palestinian government has to stop growing a generation of terrorist and has to start accepting that we are two peoples living side by side, start thinking about a better future for its youth and for peace. Terrorism only takes them away from their goal of having a country.

That's not my argument. And let's be honest here: there's plenty of dehumanizing anti-Palestinian propaganda likewise throughout Israeli society, so this is not the hill you want to choose to make your stand on.

sonny615 wrote:

Terrorism only takes them away from their goal of having a country.

What about Netanyahu's statement that "...in the current circumstances, we can't implement two states for two nations."? This is what I mean. How can the Palestinians change the situation? They have no diplomatic power. They have no military power. They have no economic power. Their land is being taken. Their jobs depend on goods coming in that can be stopped at any time. Their lives are endangered every time they try to enter or leave Israel.

It's very hard for me to look at Israel in this situation and say it is not at fault for the current situation. *Both* sides bear blame; *both* sides are resistant to peace; but only one claims a place in the world as a modern Western democracy.