SallyNasty's Game Club - Thief(2014)! We did it! Spoilers open for entire game!

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Hey gang, new game incoming!

But first - these are the guidelines for these playthroughs -

1. Games should be at least 1 calendar year old. That makes it easy to find games that are either a) on most people's piles or b) cheap to pick up(I am thinking 10-15 bucks max).
2. Games should be either episodic or broken up into easily agreed upon stopping points (i.e. achievement for ch.1 or reaching certain checkpoint). I would like it to be about an hour to an hour and a half for each "assigned" session, no more than 5-6 hours a week needed to participate.
3. Games shouldn't be more than 20 hours.
4. No console exclusives. Has to be on Microsoft/Playstation/PC platforms.

For January, we are getting back to a meatier game so this will be a longer playthrough! Right now I am thinking 3 chapters/3 chapters/2 chapters, for a three week playthrough. As is the trend, we will play the "assigned" 3 chapters for a week, and then open spoilered discussion up the next week. Please discuss as you play through together, but keep spoilers tagged/undiscussed until we get to the right part of the story.

Thief 2014 is a much maligned game that has had me interested since its launch. I love a good stealth game and a graphical powerhouse, but many complained that the story was weak and wasn't a worthy sequel to earlier games. I hope this game brings a lot of gamers to the club and we can share the journey together! This is more fun the more people play and comment!

Achievement guide here!
Collectible guide!

Was this a PS+ title? Or am I misremembering...

I think it was.

I just recently got a copy of this from Target on clearance. I'm in!

Yeah, it was a PS+ title awhile ago.

Just got my PS3 version all loaded up and ready to go

I normally don't have time for console stuff but, having the game already on PS+, I reckon I should try to make some extra effort this time round.

Yay!

It's on sale for $7.49 right now on Steam. I'm going to be out of town the first week of the playthrough, but I think I'll grab it, get the first week in next week and either spoiler EVERYTHING or just wait until y'all start talking about it!

Sweet it was also recently a Games with Gold freebie on XBO! I may have to jump in this one, have been wanting to try it out.

Docjoe wrote:

Sweet it was also recently a Games with Gold freebie on XBO! I may have to jump in this one, have been wanting to try it out.

It actually still is a games with gold freebie on xbox one. I just picked it up. Go get it people! I might be in on this, but I have never been a big fan of the thief games so we will see.

I decided to get a head start on this because I'm always lagging behind the game club. I played through the prologue and part of the first chapter.

So far, I'm enjoying it, despite it being pretty different structurally from there previous games. The atmosphere is fun, and the swoop mechanic is going to be something I really miss in other stealth games.

The story is rough. The characters aren't interesting at best and dislikeable at worst. Transitions into and out of cut scenes are often rough. Some of the story sequences are incoherent to the point that i had no idea what was going on. And on PS4, any prerendered scenes play with a choppy frame rate that's really distracting.

But the basic gameplay of exploring areas, using your tools, sneaking past enemies, and finding stuff to steal is all (so far) really smooth and solid. I'm eager to continue.

Tagging!

I'm about three hours in and just started Chapter 3. I've done a fair amount of exploring between chapters.

This is one of the most customizable single-player games I've seen out-of-the-box. You can create custom difficulty levels with an impressive degree of support for different approaches and levels of challenge. You can toggle on and off different HUD elements down to the level of overlays and button prompts. You can even switch on and off basic gameplay mechanics.

It's neat, and it allows you to tailor your experience to what you like and have fun with. I created a custom no violence, no detections difficulty; disabled loot glint, navigation markers, and the slight color overlay on interactive environment elements; but left focus mode enabled as a kind of limited use detective vision/hint system.

It's made the open world segments much more interesting and has added a nice level of challenge to the story missions. This is shaping up to be a solid pacifist, non-military stealth game.

It's just a shame you can't switch off the story. It's rubbish.

Just a quick heads-up Clock, part way in it introduces a certain character....

Spoiler:

The brothel madam (because of course it would be a brothel madam), Madame Xiao Xiao is supposed to be trans*. I don't recall any specifically problematic dialogue or anything other than it's very obviously a male voice actor was used, and the character herself is...ok....least as far as this game's quality is concerend.

But I'm sure there must have been an overheard conversation with guards..."speculating" about her, as it were. I can't remember specifics but I recall that whole segment of the game soured me on it even more than I was already.

Also, brothel madam.

As a bonus, there's also a 'bearded lady' that crops up later in a side-quest who's basically there for comic relief.

Thanks for the warning. Garden Ninja also tipped me off.

I will say that, in general, this game is a failure on the sexism and gender front. There isn't a specific event or line of dialogue that does it (although it sounds like I may be getting to that), but instead there's a constant flow of raunchy dialogue and behavior from the guards mixed with what few women there are mostly being sex workers or nags. The writer's Dictionary.com Word of the Day was apparently stuck on "c*ck" throughout production.

But I have to say: this doesn't seem like a Thief problem. This was the kind of thing that passed for "realism" the last time I played a lot of AAA games, so none of it has been particularly surprising.

Thanks for the warning. Garden Ninja also tipped me off.

I will say that, in general, this game is a failure on the sexism and gender front. There isn't a specific event or line of dialogue that does it (although it sounds like I may be getting to that), but instead there's a constant flow of raunchy dialogue and behavior from the guards mixed with what few women there are mostly being sex workers or nags. The writer's Dictionary.com Word of the Day was apparently stuck on "c*ck" throughout production.

But I have to say: this doesn't seem like a Thief problem. This was the kind of thing that passed for "realism" the last time I played a lot of AAA games, so none of it has been particularly surprising.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

I'm about three hours in and just started Chapter 3. I've done a fair amount of exploring between chapters.

This is one of the most customizable single-player games I've seen out-of-the-box. You can create custom difficulty levels with an impressive degree of support for different approaches and levels of challenge. You can toggle on and off different HUD elements down to the level of overlays and button prompts. You can even switch on and off basic gameplay mechanics.

It's neat, and it allows you to tailor your experience to what you like and have fun with. I created a custom no violence, no detections difficulty; disabled loot glint, navigation markers, and the slight color overlay on interactive environment elements; but left focus mode enabled as a kind of limited use detective vision/hint system.

It's made the open world segments much more interesting and has added a nice level of challenge to the story missions. This is shaping up to be a solid pacifist, non-military stealth game.

It's just a shame you can't switch off the story. It's rubbish.

Sounds like your experience was far more positive than mine with this one. I'd tried it on PS3 back when it was on PS+ and just couldn't get into it. It never felt all that open to me, though I could just not have played enough.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

But I have to say: this doesn't seem like a Thief problem. This was the kind of thing that passed for "realism" the last time I played a lot of AAA games, so none of it has been particularly surprising.

It's certainly not thematically appropriate for the series, but that could be said for about 90% of everything in the reboot beyond the "explore medieval world stealing things" (which I actually think it does quite well).

I don't recall much (if any) gendered cursing in the original games - mostly everything used fantasy-replacement "Taffer". On top of that, the first two games have the character of Viktoria who was a really interesting female character with her own agenda and from what I recall a pretty good story arc (none of which is reliant on Garret's help or interference beyond an initial employee-employer contract).

I'm also fairly sure that there weren't any sex workers at all (I might be wrong) and there were a fair mix of non-named female servants and noble women throughout most 'city' missions. They also included female acolytes in the mage towers missions if I recall correctly). Thief 2 also introduced female guards as well. I think the Hammers were the only consistently male dominated faction which was more of a story thing, what with them being a strict and zealous religious order.

I don't recall many women from the first game other than Viktoria, who was always seemed a slinky pawn of the Trickster. But it's been a long time since I played the original.

Edit: Since comparisons to the original will inevitably come up, I'll go ahead and blather about it.

I have to say that, so far, the environmental design is weaker in this one versus the original, and the setting and lore aren't as rich, but the sneaking and overall gameplay is significantly improved.

Thief: The Dark Project did a lot of really ground-breaking work with building spaces that were realistic, interesting, and rich with story. The term mise en scene got tossed around a lot after BioShock released, but The Dark Project (and its sibling, System Shock 2) did a much better job of telling stories big and large through the layout of the scenes and the items in it. Thief ('14) attempts this in a few areas, but it doesn't do nearly as good of a job.

Thief ('98) also built an interesting and unexpected mythology based around the Builder, a god of construction, and the Trickster, a god of chaos, with neutral parties trying to maintain a balance between the two. I never found Garrett himself to be all that interesting as a character, and the original game is lacking in general when it comes to specifically memorable characters and events, but the world itself was quite good.

But the gameplay often collapsed under the weight of its own ambition and the designers' own mistakes. When people talk about the things they liked about Thief ('98), it seems like more often than not they're talking primarily about the first mission, "Lord Bafford's Manor", and little that followed it. (In fact, based on what I've heard from other players, I would guess that most people who play Thief: The Dark Project never slogged through to the end.) Or else they mean one of the early missions in the second game.

The AI for the guards was miserable, overall feedback outside of the light gem was poor, combat was terrible, and later missions suffered from confusing level layouts and forced combat sequences. Traversal was a chore, and the tools at your disposal were fiddly and unreliable. I'm enormously fond of Thief: The Dark Project and consider it one of the most personally impactful games I've ever played, but I have no desire to revisit it past the first level because it just doesn't hold up well.

If I could marry the moment-to-moment gameplay of this game with the lore and attention to detail of the first game, I'd be a really happy camper.

I'm in! I've had it in Steam for awhile but haven't touched it. Time to change that!

Do I have to wait until January 4th to start? No reading ahead is allowed?

The area in Chapter 3 that pyxistyx mentioned:

Spoiler:

The inevitable brothel.

Made me really uncomfortable. There's a whole lot going on there that really didn't need to be there and adds nothing to the game. I nearly quit, to be honest.

However, the area in Chapter 3 immediately after it:

Spoiler:

The Forgotten Ruins.

So far, have been really fun and interesting. Very classic Thief in a lot of ways. I haven't finished the chapter yet but will soon and will report back if that area is as good throughout as it is to start.

I think I answered my own question around reading through this thread - it's also my first time participating, so apologies for the dumb queries!

I've got the game installing now. I won't be able to play until probably Friday night, but I'm hoping to get a couple missions in, find out why people don't like this as much as the first three, then keep chugging along for the Good of All (tm)!

I've also never played the first three, so maybe I won't be hindered by nostalgia.

Vrikk wrote:

I'm in! I've had it in Steam for awhile but haven't touched it. Time to change that!

Do I have to wait until January 4th to start? No reading ahead is allowed?

Everyone else is waiting until January 4th. I just started early because I always lag behind on these things and then get overwhelmed.

I may be in since I've had it since shortly after launch and have yet to make it much past the first few chapters. Either way I'll be checking this thread daily to read impressions. I'm one of the few people who felt the first two Thief titles were mediocre games at best. If memory serves I actually finished Deadly Shadows, and definitely liked what little I played of this one.

I also may start early because I have a one year old son that tires me out most nights. I could see myself lagging behind the group as well, though the time table seems fairly reasonable.

I got through the prologue and about 1/2 of Chapter 1 tonight before we received a guest. I'm enjoying the bit I've played so far.

I'm in - this is on my pile and I like the idea of this "game club" and wish to participate!

I played a bit of it when it first came out though I don't remember how far I got.

I may have to hop in.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Thanks for the warning. Garden Ninja also tipped me off.

I will say that, in general, this game is a failure on the sexism and gender front. There isn't a specific event or line of dialogue that does it (although it sounds like I may be getting to that), but instead there's a constant flow of raunchy dialogue and behavior from the guards mixed with what few women there are mostly being sex workers or nags. The writer's Dictionary.com Word of the Day was apparently stuck on "c*ck" throughout production.

But I have to say: this doesn't seem like a Thief problem. This was the kind of thing that passed for "realism" the last time I played a lot of AAA games, so none of it has been particularly surprising.

I did? Huh. I played it around when it came out, so it must have been then. I don't remember almost any of this game.

What I do remember though, is yeah, liking the swoop mechanic, and the moment-to-moment gameplay being generally good, but also starting to slog in the later half of the game. Also, the game isn't so much open world as a hub connected to "dungeons", and after a while, traversing the hug gets kind of tedious, especially the are right around Garret's clock tower.

Anyway, I've been meaning to play this again, and it is the GWG game this month, so I'm in! And since I have the same problem Clock does with getting behind and then frustrated, I will also start early I think.

I am getting really excited to start this puppy up. I think I will start up this weekend as well!

I may be in depending on if I can pull myself away from Fallout 4 and Skyrim enough to not fall too far behind. I will make sure it's downloaded to my XB1 just in case.

Ok, so I played through Chapter 3, the aforementioned Brother level today.

So, yeah, we have a trans femme character who is a sex worker, voiced by a cis man. It's like a they are working from a How To Get It Wrong checklist. On the plus side, no one has misgendered her, so there's that I guess.

Nevermind how the game treats women in general.

I think I'm gonna skip this after all. Shame, because I had setup a custom difficulty and enjoying being forced to play without no alerts and no knockouts. I do remember it dragging in the later half, so there's a chance I'd have dropped it then anyway. But just, ugh. I don't remember if Xiao Xiao even appears in the game again, but it just kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I was talking to RNG the other day in IRC and he had mentioned that his bare minimum for trans characters is, if not being played by a trans actor/actress, at least being played by a cis actor/actress of the correct gender. I think I'm going to do the same.

Now, shifting tone pretty drastically for a second, for those who aren't completely turned off the game by these issues and are enjoying the game, I'd suggest picking up the Bank DLC that came with new copies, assuming you can get it standalone. I remember it being one of the best "dungeons" in the game.

Garden Ninja wrote:

I was talking to RNG the other day in IRC and he had mentioned that his bare minimum for trans characters is, if not being played by a trans actor/actress, at least being played by a cis actor/actress of the correct gender. I think I'm going to do the same.

I'm not dropping the game yet, but I agree with the rest of your post. There were multiple copies of the How to Get It Wrong handbook for multiple topics circulating with the dev team.

This, however, is an interesting rule that I'll have to think more about. Wouldn't the trans character from Dragon Age that cheered so many fail that check (trans masculine character voiced by a cisgendered woman)?

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