Grow up.

It's a shame the OP so clearly specified "Grown. Men." in his original post, because I think maybe there's an interesting discussion to be had about how society expects little girls to grow up long before little boys, and how the expectations of adulthood differ for women and men.

Women are groomed long before they hit puberty for the adult tasks of child-rearing, cleaning, and sex/matrimony. Little girls are discouraged from active, loud or messy play, and steered towards quieter, nurturing role play. Even our stereotypical 'childish things' prepare us for the roles we'll expected to take on as adults -- baby dolls for motherhood; kitchen toys for cooking; play jewelry and play make-up for making ourselves attractive to men, and so on.

Like, there's at least some social concept of the "man-child", some acknowledgement of "boys and their toys" -- that some or all men, deep down, are Peter Pan, wishing never to grow up. Women, however, are thrust into the role of Wendy even before they understand what that role is preparing them for.

Personally, I think adult women have an additional pressure on them far beyond what men experience to "grow up" and set aside toys or pursuits perceived as childish. As adults, we're supposed to be focusing on childbirth, on taking care of those around us, on keeping a beautiful home. So women who write video game fanfiction or watch comic book movies or read YA books aren't just seen as being harmlessly childish in the way that men are. They're reviled. They're being irresponsible. They're accused of ruining something sacred. As women, we're expected to hang up our fandom hats and childish pursuits after a certain age and move on already.

I built my career writing about video games -- what more childish pursuit is there for our generation? -- for an adult audience. I still do it, on occasion. But over the past decade and change, not a month has gone by that I haven't been asked by someone I love and respect whether I'm done playing video games yet. Haven't I grown out of them yet? etc.

It got exponentially worse once I began having children. Because as a woman in this society, motherhood defines me -- heck, the potential of motherhood has always defined me, long before I had a baby. And, of course, motherhood is Adult, while gaming is Childish. So for a woman to both raise a child AND enjoy video games, well, that borders on sacrilege. So I am expected to feel shame for the things I enjoy; I am expected to talk about games (and comics, and toys, and so on) as "guilty pleasures" or "trashy pleasures" or as things I know I shouldn't do, but do anyway.

It's exhausting. But I think it's getting better, incrementally. In general, I don't see women younger than me struggling quite so hard with shame and guilt over the "childish things" that they enjoy. They grew up with new Harry Potter movies every year, and Lord of the Rings winning Oscars, and Marvel releasing wave after wave of comic book movies, and YA fiction topping best-seller lists. So they embrace their childish things, and anybody who gives them guff about it is obviously not worth listening to. That's cool. I like that. I hope it continues.

KaterinLHC wrote:

Stuff.

I agree that the societal expectations of both men and women have done a disservice to both genders. Specifically, I see this demonstrated in the massive chasm of difference in how each gender contributes to housework.

garion333 wrote:

Now that's a discussion worth having. Has quality of life been risen so high that the uneducated masses have become the educated but who cares tv watchers/game players/etc.? I would say absolutely, sorta.

I think part of it is that the pressing necessity of self improvement is not as visible as it was in previous generations. We no longer have to mow our own lawns, fix our own sheds, make and repair our own furniture, or grow our own food. All of that stuff has become cheaply commoditized and the purpose of our leisure has become purely to entertain ourselves. And several industries have popped up to Hoover that up and turn it into revenue.

The irony is that as rapidly changing as our markets and industries are, the need for self improvement is actually far GREATER than it has ever been. The jobs we hold today are placeholders for the changing nature of the careers we hold. Whereas a man in your father's generation may have held a position in an insurance company for 25 years, the average college graduate now can expect to change jobs 3-5 times before he's 30. And his accompanying skill set will be radically different with each iteration.

I don't pretend to know how all of this comes together, but the phenomenon appears to be leaving men/boys behind in a marketplace that favors adaptability.

SensuousLettuce wrote:

I don't see it an any other generation. The Boomers aren't still holed up in their rooms playing with howdy doody and lambchop puppets.

What about Boomers holed up in their basements/workshops filled with model railroads? What about Boomers constantly sharing "LIKE if you remember THIS!" posts on Facebook obsessing about toys and kids entertainment from their childhood? (Every Boomer on my FB feed does this like crazy) What about Boomers who obsessively collect and read children's literature from their childhood years? What about Boomers who are supporting a horrifyingly hateful and fascist presidential candidate solely because he calls to them about restoring the (pre-Civil Rights) America of their childhood?

Certis wrote:

there's something really worthwhile to explore here.

I'm honestly not sure there is. I see a lot of hobby-shaming, gender stereotyping, and generational stereotyping, and not much else.

And lest this come across as me being purely defensive, I don't really fit into the description of the OP anymore (I did in my 20's), as my life is pretty filled with being busy with work, parenting, homemaking, and trying to fit in time for my hobbies when I can.

I'm not the obsessive fan type, but I don't see a problem with people enjoying what they want to enjoy in the manner they see fit.

Farscry wrote:

all fair and good points

I think the discussion is worth having from the standpoint of understanding how the focus of leisure has changed though. I do agree that harping on one generation's nostalgia is unproductive, unfair, and frankly pretty hypocritical. I don't think someone's collection of sports memorabilia is any more legitimate than collecting comic book figurines or vintage pulp novels or girlie mags.

My concern is that the focus of, particularly male leisure as entertainment has created a divide in the expectations of time investment. It is statistically evident that women spend a LOT more time with home maintenance, self improvement, and tasks that we should all agree are more "mature".

Enjoy your leisure, but recognize that the obsession with entertainment that disproportionately affects American males is damaging to both genders.

Farscry wrote:
Certis wrote:

there's something really worthwhile to explore here.

I'm honestly not sure there is. I see a lot of hobby-shaming, gender stereotyping, and generational stereotyping, and not much else.

Very agreed. I mean, there's probably a conversation to be had about the ways in which societal beliefs about masculinity / femininity / adulthood more broadly are foisted on children, and what that implies in terms of conformity and social control (I think KaterinLHC is on to something when she points out that men are given a lot more leeway here).

But between the inflammatory title, scare quotes around 'men', and the "Grown. Men" line characterizing the display of emotions as worthy of mockery, the opening post seems a pretty unlikely starting point for that.

(I will say it is a testament to the overall quality of this community that there are folks willing to push towards an interesting conversation in spite of the prompt).

Thinking this might be P&C worthy.

Paleocon wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Now that's a discussion worth having. Has quality of life been risen so high that the uneducated masses have become the educated but who cares tv watchers/game players/etc.? I would say absolutely, sorta.

I think part of it is that the pressing necessity of self improvement is not as visible as it was in previous generations. We no longer have to mow our own lawns, fix our own sheds, make and repair our own furniture, or grow our own food. All of that stuff has become cheaply commoditized and the purpose of our leisure has become purely to entertain ourselves. And several industries have popped up to Hoover that up and turn it into revenue.

The irony is that as rapidly changing as our markets and industries are, the need for self improvement is actually far GREATER than it has ever been. The jobs we hold today are placeholders for the changing nature of the careers we hold. Whereas a man in your father's generation may have held a position in an insurance company for 25 years, the average college graduate now can expect to change jobs 3-5 times before he's 30. And his accompanying skill set will be radically different with each iteration.

I don't pretend to know how all of this comes together, but the phenomenon appears to be leaving men/boys behind in a marketplace that favors adaptability.

Not being snippy, asking an actual question: Isn't this the central tenet to The End of Men: And the Rise of Women?

Dimmerswitch wrote:
Farscry wrote:
Certis wrote:

there's something really worthwhile to explore here.

I'm honestly not sure there is. I see a lot of hobby-shaming, gender stereotyping, and generational stereotyping, and not much else.

Very agreed. I mean, there's probably a conversation to be had about the ways in which societal beliefs about masculinity / femininity / adulthood more broadly are foisted on children, and what that implies in terms of conformity and social control (I think KaterinLHC is on to something when she points out that men are given a lot more leeway here).

But between the inflammatory title, scare quotes around 'men', and the "Grown. Men" line characterizing the display of emotions as worthy of mockery, the opening post seems a pretty unlikely starting point for that.

(I will say it is a testament to the overall quality of this community that there are folks willing to push towards an interesting conversation in spite of the prompt).

I don't have the respek knuckles meme pic handy. It belongs here though.

Does the op plan on joining the conversation?

Farscry wrote:
SensuousLettuce wrote:

I don't see it an any other generation. The Boomers aren't still holed up in their rooms playing with howdy doody and lambchop puppets.

What about Boomers holed up in their basements/workshops filled with model railroads? What about Boomers constantly sharing "LIKE if you remember THIS!" posts on Facebook obsessing about toys and kids entertainment from their childhood? (Every Boomer on my FB feed does this like crazy) What about Boomers who obsessively collect and read children's literature from their childhood years? What about Boomers who are supporting a horrifyingly hateful and fascist presidential candidate solely because he calls to them about restoring the (pre-Civil Rights) America of their childhood?

Certis wrote:

there's something really worthwhile to explore here.

I'm honestly not sure there is. I see a lot of hobby-shaming, gender stereotyping, and generational stereotyping, and not much else.

There's not much I agree with in the original post, but the kernel of it is interesting and people have already added some great thoughts.

Not every post has to be sifted through an attack/defense response. Sometimes it's worthwhile to see past the language and the person making the statements and see if there's anything in there worth exploring.

Wow, this conversation has become very interesting. My initial thought was that as long as you were taking care of your real life job and family/friends, then it didn't matter if you were a gamer or Trekkie or what-not. Your interests would need to be way out there before I'd turn up my nose, though I do draw the line at Confederate bronies and furry juggalos.

But after reading the comments from Katerin and others, I'm starting to wonder if gaming is something I need to finally put away now that I've turned 40. On one hand, it's a way for me to stay in touch with friends from across the country and it gives much needed stress relief. On the other, I know I could be doing a lot more to keep the house to trendy middle class standards. We don't live in filth by any means, but our house can get hectic and cluttered until we do a deep clean about once or twice a month. I know it's a source of frustration for our wife whose sisters are all upper middle and all into Martha Stewart perfect house BS. I do my best to keep the yard and garden looking good, but once again I'm eclipsed by either the folks who spend a lot on landscaping crews or who spend every minute of every summer afternoon working on their lawns. I can afford to hire say Scotts Lawn Service, but they did such a crappy job that I figured I would just take it over myself.

Exercise is another area where I feel I'm falling down big time. I really look at envy with my friends who seem to get the same fun out of marathon running that I do out or going on a 4-hour Fallout binge. I just can't bring myself to work out as religiously as I used to because the time trade-off doesn't seem worth it.

Anyhow, I hope this doesn't come across as whining. Having grown up poor, I'm tickled pink to be where I am right now. I'm just at a part of my life where I have a lot of extra expectations and not enough money to outsource it all.

Maybe I should just leave you with the horrible splendor that is the Juggafur/Rebel Brony.

Spoiler:

IMAGE(http://img.ifcdn.com/images/32ed874c07b3a8cbc2c8573d6b3036edae21e53c8cc89112eed7d3a5be10dec6_1.jpg)

IMAGE(https://spikedpit.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/juggafur.jpg)

karmajay wrote:

Does the op plan on joining the conversation?

Maybe when the angry bees dissipate hehe.

Paleocon wrote:

I don't think someone's collection of sports memorabilia is any more legitimate than collecting comic book figurines or vintage pulp novels or girlie mags.

speaking of previous generation's collecting habits, jd's amazing find in his post reminds me:

garion333 wrote:

Not being snippy, asking an actual question: Isn't this the central tenet to The End of Men: And the Rise of Women?

I am not familiar with the book. Perhaps I should be?

Certis wrote:

Not every post has to be sifted through an attack/defense response. Sometimes it's worthwhile to see past the language and the person making the statements and see if there's anything in there worth exploring.

I really do have a hard time seeing past the language sometimes; this was one of those times since the OP was littered with objectionable statements. It's a personal failing of mine that I've gotten better about over the years, but still struggle with.

I have no prior "bad" history with Sensuous Lettuce though.

Maybe a better way to put it would be see past our assumptions about the person.

Farscry wrote:

I have no prior "bad" history with Sensuous Lettuce though. :)

With a name like Sensuous Lettuce, how could you?

jdzappa wrote:

But after reading the comments from Katerin and others, I'm starting to wonder if gaming is something I need to finally put away now that I've turned 40.

That's the opposite of what I'm saying, though. I'm saying that society expects women to put away childish things once they reach a certain age, much more so than men are. That they're groomed against holding onto their childhoods, even while they're still children.

Personally, I believe you should love what you love, for the most part, and screw what anybody says about it. As others (including C.S. Lewis!) have pointed out, that confidence is a mark of true adulthood.

KaterinLHC wrote:

It's exhausting. But I think it's getting better, incrementally. In general, I don't see women younger than me struggling quite so hard with shame and guilt over the "childish things" that they enjoy. They grew up with new Harry Potter movies every year, and Lord of the Rings winning Oscars, and Marvel releasing wave after wave of comic book movies, and YA fiction topping best-seller lists. So they embrace their childish things, and anybody who gives them guff about it is obviously not worth listening to. That's cool. I like that. I hope it continues.

Great points, and I think it is definitely getting better. My daughter is 16 and has no hangups about enjoying her anime, comic books, gaming, etc. and I'm sometimes surprised by the amount of her female friends that are unabashedly into the same things. Just a generation ago when I was in high school, these were things that were almost exclusively male interests.

KaterinLHC wrote:

Personally, I think adult women have an additional pressure on them far beyond what men experience to "grow up" and set aside toys or pursuits perceived as childish. As adults, we're supposed to be focusing on childbirth, on taking care of those around us, on keeping a beautiful home. So women who write video game fanfiction or watch comic book movies or read YA books aren't just seen as being harmlessly childish in the way that men are. They're reviled. They're being irresponsible. They're accused of ruining something sacred. As women, we're expected to hang up our fandom hats and childish pursuits after a certain age and move on already.

There is certainly some pressure on men to do that, but as KaterinLHC noted, this pressure on women is massive.

Back in the "good old days" before Gen X, it was perfectly acceptable for a man to spend hours upon hours tinkering away and chatting at -- for example -- his ham radio hobby. That was no more or less educational and productive than spending hours upon hours tinkering away at building Neverwinter Night modules and chatting with other mod-builders.

But in either case, while a man might be looked at by his spouse doing that with a chuckle and a "boys and their toys" comment while she focuses on home projects or the like, the opposite is much more rare. Our culture is less accepting of a woman pursuing "toy" hobbies while her husband works on home projects.

Paleocon wrote:

I think part of it is that the pressing necessity of self improvement is not as visible as it was in previous generations. We no longer have to mow our own lawns, fix our own sheds, make and repair our own furniture, or grow our own food. All of that stuff has become cheaply commoditized and the purpose of our leisure has become purely to entertain ourselves. And several industries have popped up to Hoover that up and turn it into revenue.

The irony is that as rapidly changing as our markets and industries are, the need for self improvement is actually far GREATER than it has ever been. The jobs we hold today are placeholders for the changing nature of the careers we hold. Whereas a man in your father's generation may have held a position in an insurance company for 25 years, the average college graduate now can expect to change jobs 3-5 times before he's 30. And his accompanying skill set will be radically different with each iteration.

This is an important point too. But does this need make it necessary to wholly abandon leisure that is purely about entertainment or self-gratification?

For example, now that I am a homeowner, a sizable chunk of my time goes into home and lawn maintenance, as well as doing my own repairs whenever possible so I can be self-reliant. I regularly read non-fiction about a variety of topics to educate myself across a variety of subjects as well as keep up with world events. I also am an involved parent and partner, both in terms of responsibilities (working with my stepdaughter on her homework every night, sharing household chores and responsibilities with my fiancee, etc) and relationships (talking with them, taking part in activities with them; building our relationships). Starting this spring, I will be working as a volunteer at my hospital outside of my regular job duties as a patient "ambassador"; basically helping to care for patients' needs outside of the medical care they get from their doctors and nurses.

And yet I still have my purely-leisure hobbies that I want to carve out time for and do so when I can. Gaming, fiction reading, painting wargaming miniatures (that one's been especially hard to make time to do since the move this summer), and watching the very few tv shows that I try to keep up with. Often this is done at the expense of some sleep, as there simply isn't much time to do any of this otherwise.

The two activities that have really fallen by the wayside this past year have been (in order of importance):

1) Exercise - Being honest with myself, I need accountability and a partner or team to keep me going with exercise. I used to go to a local gym that had classes, but that just hasn't worked out due to scheduling. Either it means getting up even earlier than I already do, which is damn near a non-starter for me, or it means carving a fairly big chunk of time out of the early evening, which means we have to figure out something else for meals since most evenings one of us needs to provide child transport for activities while the other handles meal preparation.

I've signed up through my work to meet weekly with a wellness coach this spring to help me figure something out, because if I keep trying to figure this out on my own I'm going to keep getting nowhere.

2) Writing - I've always harbored daydreams of writing books, but I have simply gotten too discouraged over the years. I'm not a particularly good writer, and the time I would need to invest into it means abandoning what little other leisure-hobby time I manage to find. I think I am ok with this one falling by the wayside.

Sorry for my meandering thoughts, I'm basically just trying to make the point that I don't feel one has to abandon their "fun" pursuits just to be a productive adult who continues to work on self-improvement - both personally and professionally.

I have some sympathy for the original poster. I've always had a slightly uncomfortable relationship with my nerd hobbies. I know I'm posting this on a gaming forum, I've got a ridiculous Steam library and many shelves full of science fiction and fantasy novels. But, I've never been comfortable letting my freak flag fly. There are few outward physical manifestations of any of my nerd or pop culture interests in my house and absolutely none at work.

I spent my working career in a civil service/military environment where any manifestation of any nerd interest or hobby would immediately label one as a fundamentally unserious person. On the other hand, it was also an environment where any manifestation of any interest at all other than total focus on the mission would get one binned in the unserious category. Safely finding similarly minded people usually involved carefully dropping hints and weeks of dancing around the issue.

And the thing is, I'm guilty of some of the same prejudices. If you want to study the Silmarillion or any other bit of nerd canon, that's awesome. If you want to put a plastic figurine on your desk, that just suggests to me that you're an easily susceptible victim of some corporate marketing machine - or a person who is self-limiting their professional opportunities by demonstrating that they aren't picking up the social cues in their environment.

I know that this is not necessarily a fair or enlightened perspective.

Thin_J wrote:

I don't have the respek knuckles meme pic handy. It belongs here though.

I got you, boo.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/Xuxy1yU.gif)

I'll grow up and stop playing games, when you grow up and stop telling other people that They're Doing It Wrong.

Jonman wrote:

I'll grow up and stop playing games, when you grow up and stop telling other people that They're Doing It Wrong.

I know you are not directing your statement at me, but I thought I would address this a bit.

I am not at all telling folks that they should stop playing games, collecting action figures, or enjoying themselves however they please. I am, however, saying that there does seem to be a predominantly male culture around obsessive entertainment that doesn't (at least to me and the statistics) appear as prevalent among females.

If there is any claim that we should "grow up" and adult better, it is that we, as a gender, seem to be okay with this.

SensuousLettuce wrote:

Why is it that gen Xers, mostly 'men' are forever and endlessly trying to recreate their childhoods? I know grown men who still collect action figures, comic books, and obsess endlessly over movies, books, and other things of their childhood to the point of posing them on their work desks, dedicating huge parts of their houses to the collection and so forth.

Back in my party kid days, one day someone suggested we throw an afterparty in Battery Park (which if you don't know NYC is at the southern end of the business district, across the water from the Statue of Liberty). So one thing led to another and we found ourselves playing music and dancing well into late morning, and this being an extension of the NYC club scene, some people were dressed in pretty outlandish attire. It was late enough in the day that tourists were out and about, and at one point a group approached me and asked, in something like an Eastern European accent, if this was our job, like if we were entertainers or something. And it hit me, at that instant, that being in a position to go dance in the park or whatever just for the hell of it is a mark of incredible privilege, to the point where it's obviously completely foreign to some people.

In short, I think a lot of this indulgence in "childish pursuits" is simply an artifact of the position we've found ourselves in as a society. We have enough disposable income, relative safety, and free time that it's an option. From there, people getting worked up over these things is an aspect of human psychology. These are things that we value to the point where subcultures have formed around them, and with that comes norms and mores. Once you define yourself by your interest in a thing there becomes a desire to compare yourself to others in that arena, and so also comes exclusion of people who don't make the grade. Sure that arena may be Full Contact Cosplay Tiddlywinks, but if you're the guy with 15 movie-grade cosplay outfits and tiddlywinks carved out of heirloom quality Jade, then darnit you're going to want to show the world that you're the best damn member of that particular community.

One thing that's come up recently is that people often seem to think that things are zero-sum games even though they aren't. Like if women gain equal recognition that it's somehow taking something away from the men. I think this is the mindset that tends to make people be exclusionary towards others in these hobbies. They feel like they're on top in a thing that they love, and so any attempt at inclusion is somehow changing the rules to a point where their status is being taken away from them. And this is obviously false because these people still have those 15 movie-grade cosplay outfits and heirloom quality tiddlywinks that no one else has, but suddenly that maybe isn't the ultimate goal for that general hobby any more, so they feel like they've been shifted from Lord of all Cosplaying Tiddlywikers to That Weird Guy With the Costumes Who Just Won't Grow Up. ie. Their interests have moved from a larger niche to a smaller one as other people's interests change around them, and This Just Cannot Be.

Just to circle back regarding gender and geekdom, I guess I have the following concerns:

1. Am I leaning too much on my wife so that I can pursue my hobby? I do a lot of the evening routine with the kiddo and do my best to pull my weight, but there are several things she handles exclusively like laundry and grocery shopping.

2. Am I doing enough in my community and to pursue my dream of being a novelist? Or am I spending too much time sucked into entertainment world? (Ok maybe this isn't gender specific but at least in terms of school volunteering it seems the moms do the heavy lifting.)

3. Am I setting a good example for my son? There seems to be tens of thousands of useless young neckbeards out there who not only have no ambition in life but who actively mock "normies" for trying to be productive members of society. I want to make sure my son knows that gaming and Internet time are great but I still expect him to do well in school and eventually get a job and build a life.

jdzappa wrote:

Just to circle back regarding gender and geekdom, I guess I have the following concerns:

1. Am I leaning too much on my wife so that I can pursue my hobby? I do a lot of the evening routine with the kiddo and do my best to pull my weight, but there are several things she handles exclusively like laundry and grocery shopping.

Yeah I considered mentioning this, but I wasn't sure how it fit into the overall discussion because it's as much a function of individual relationship dynamics as it is societal. Historically, men have had free time to pursue hobbies because they offloaded all home responsibilities on their wife. I don't think things are this way any more, but where things fall is defined by the people involved. I don't think I really understand what the average is here either. I don't feel like I'm involved in home stuff to an unusual degree, but I'm frequently told how uncommon it is for a guy to do the stuff I volunteer for. So... yeah. If nothing else, I do hope that GWJers, as considerate people, skew towards an equitable balance of responsibilities in their relationships.

jdzappa wrote:

3. Am I setting a good example for my son? There seems to be tens of thousands of useless young neckbeards out there who not only have no ambition in life but who actively mock "normies" for trying to be productive members of society. I want to make sure my son knows that gaming and Internet time are great but I still expect him to do well in school and eventually get a job and build a life.

I think this is largely a function of #1 and #2. If you feel good about those choices then you're likely setting the kind of example for your kids that you want to set.

I think we are the first generation to actually question our parents narrow and misogynistic definition or view of what a man is.
This same thing puzzled me when I took a stab at online dating and there were several women who put "peter pans" in "dislikes".
So being young at heart is a flaw? Being able to be creative/imaginative and play with your children is not manly? (not trying to attack the OP, just the general thought of the idea of what a man is that I grew up with)
You know prior generation's definition of a man seems so simplistic but actually now requires quite a few mental hurdles to be consistent. Case in point, we now have openly gay soldiers in the military that are "fighting for our freedom" yet would be considered less of a man or not a man at all.
Which sort of lends itself to the argument of who really needs to grow up: grandpa that makes jokes out of anal prison rape or the Xer that got ordained online so that their gay friends would have someone to officiate their wedding ten years ago?
I also think you are underestimating the effects of the cold war. And perhaps that is why we have grown up with such joie de vie and youthful outlook. I'm only 4 years older than you but I remember the heavy layer of oppression of MAD. I remember telling my parents as a young teenager that the only way out would be if we were attacked by aliens. That would force us to collaborate for the common good against a larger threat. Don't think I am not completely befuddled as to how life turns out. But once the Cold War was lifted it was a liberation of all sorts of things: good and bad. Hence the growth of getting the good while you can in everything and ever since.

I can't answer that for you, jdzappa, but maybe it's worth mentioning recent research that shows that in two-parent homes, women report doing more of the housework, whereas men tend to think they're sharing these duties equally:

Pew Research wrote:

Mothers and fathers in two-parent households differ in their perceptions of how they split certain responsibilities. The gap is especially pronounced when it comes to household chores and responsibilities. Half of mothers in two-parent households say they do more than their partners in this area, compared with 32% of fathers who say their wives or partners do more. Fathers, for their part, are more likely to say they and their partners share household chores and responsibilities about equally: More than half (56%) say this is the case, while 46% of mothers agree.

Similarly, while about six-in-ten mothers say they do more than their partners when it comes to managing their children’s schedules and activities (64%) and taking care of their children when they’re sick (62%), fewer fathers agree that, in their households, mothers do more in each of these areas (53% and 47%, respectively). In these areas, too, fathers are more likely than mothers to say they and their partners share responsibilities about equally.

It's easy to track who does the dishes. Not so easy to track who keeps tabs on whether Junior needs to go to the eye doctor, or who gets the glitter glue for his social studies project, etc. These duties have traditionally, and apparently still do, fall to Mom.

Also of interest (from the same study):

When it comes to leisure time, about half or more of all parents—whether they are employed full time, part time, or not employed—say there’s not enough of it. Full-time working mothers are somewhat more likely than other mothers to say this is the case; about six-in-ten (59%) say they don’t have enough time away from their children to get together with friends or to pursue hobbies and other interests, compared with about half of mothers who are employed part time (48%) or are not employed (47%). Among fathers, the same shares of those who work full time and those who work part time or are not employed say they don’t have enough leisure time away from their children (53% each)

Oh and I do recall recording something on a certain website years ago, that being mature is knowing how and when to be immature...
https://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/...

KaterinLHC wrote:

Real stuff.

I have a lot to think about based on this quote.