(Moved to Meta Dialog)
Does anyone have anything else to bring up in regards to this beat, or did we miss anything that had been brought up? I'm personally GTG.
GTG!
GTG
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Wow, we didn't even get past two pages or into the second beat this time.
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No.
You put words in her mouth and we aren't happy (and you subsequently ask us not to do that very same thing to you).
You "praise her" (i.e. post derisive, mocking comments) instead of engaging in a discussion and we aren't happy.
You should try holding yourself to the standards you expect of others, and try sticking to simple, honest dialogue instead of perceiving every disagreement as a personal slight and diving to the defensive with both fists swinging. That would make us happy. And then we all -- including you -- win. The only ones who lose at that point are those who take unfair pot-shots at you (and yes, that's happened, but it's hard for me to stick up for you when you're taking unfair pot-shots yourself).
I'm not saying anything here I haven't been communicating all along.
Ok. I removed all my remarks. Lets proceed.
As I said on the other thread, I've been told to take the weekend off from p and c. I'll catch up after. Proceed.
Nothing interesting or noteworthy here. This could have been combined with the first video and presented as a problem that has existed in the past to the present.
GTG
Nothing objectionable, and I like that she has more source references in the text details of the video.
GTG.
I actually disagree Baron, she talked about the historical origins... and then moved into... well, we're living in a more progressive time now, obviously this has gotten better right? Oh wait... *18 clips showing this in a wide range of games* I think that was kind of a humorous (if snarky humorous, even if she isn't particularly snarky sounding in tone here) of how things really haven't gotten that much better just because we now occasionally have female protagonists (with a future video for how even those female protagonists are frequently treated very differently from male protagonists).
the majority of these titles focus of delivering crude, unsophisticated male power fantasies
My initial reaction to this is that it's a bit loaded, but that's because "crude" in particular has been given an unnecessarily negative connotation over time.
I liken this to how I use the word "ignorant" more frequently than most people, but I use it in its literal sense, with no negative connotation intended.
And in this beat, "crude" really is the most accurate word I can think of for Sarkeesian to use. In conjunction with "unsophisticated" it gets across that she is not casting aspersion on the existence of simple male power fantasties. I think she has been magnanimous enough throughout the first video and into this one that it is disingenuous to try to put words into her mouth and claim that she's called for the elimination of all instances of this.
If we leave aside any outside baggage, what she is simply pointing to here is that the majority of the titles she is referring to here are using the most basic elements of male power fantasies without making the effort to build meaningfully upon that archetype. Thus, crude and unsophisticated. And she is saying that since the developers aren't showing an interest in making the core of their game's archetype more sophisticated, it logically explains why they are likewise resorting to one of the easiest motivation models of that archetype: the damsel in distress.
As for the rest of the beat, when she makes her point about feeble attempts to break the Damsel mold, she shows her characteristic deliberation behind phrasing (yes, again, she isn't 100% successful all the time, but she adheres to it quite consistently):
These token gestures of pseudo-empowerment don’t really offer any meaningful change to the core of the trope and it feels like developers just throw these moments in at the last minute to try to excuse their continued reliance on the damsel in distress.
She isn't stating authoritatively what the developers' intentions are; she acknowledges that this is a emotional or anecdotal response on her part by stating that -- to her -- it feels like this.
I am ok with someone offering a personal thought in a piece like this so long as they differentiate between personal thoughts and sourced information.
GTG.
I like that we're at least introducing why this trope could be damaging. You could argue whether the notion of "powerless women are attractive" is widespread or regressive; I'm content not to.
I like that we're at least introducing why this trope could be damaging. You could argue whether the notion of "powerless women are attractive" is widespread or regressive; I'm content not to.
I am content to do so. If we're going to go to the appeals are that you feel good about doing something good (helping someone in need is something good, I remind you) and at worst being able to impress someone you might desire.
I'd also suggest that in a society where women are encouraged to do it all, there's anxiety about not being needed. If the helplessness of the damsel appeals at all its because it's nice to be needed. Feminism has not helped in this regard. So it's nice to have a simple little fantasy to compensate.
Beat 4 wrote:Periodically, game developers may attempt to build a more flushed out relationship or emotional bond between Damsel’d character and the male protagonist. In the most decidedly patronizing examples depictions of female vulnerability are used for an easy way for writers to trigger an emotional reaction in male players.
As we discussed in our first episode, when female characters are damsel’ed, their ostensible agency is removed and they are reduced to a state of victimhood.
So narratives that frame intimacy, love or romance as something that blossoms from or hinges upon the disempowerment and victimization of women are extremely troubling because they tend to reinforce the widespread regressive notion that women in vulnerable, passive or subordinate positions are somehow desirable because of their state of powerlessness. Unfortunately these types of stories also help to perpetuate the paternalistic belief that power imbalances within romantic relationships appealing, expected, or normal.
First: Fleshed out.
I agree with Chumpy that this is some good, concrete evidence that the DiD trope is actively harmful to women in real life. A good exercise, I think, would be to alternatively replace the character with a puppy and with a man, and see which one is more/less ridiculous. If a scenario works better as rescuing a helpless little puppy who can't do anything but yip and cuddle vs a man, then the trope is damaging, because last I checked, women were closer in agency to men than they were to puppies.
That's not to discount the desire of some people of all genders to be taken care of, or to be needed just because you exist vs because of what you can do, or what have you. There are times when I'd rather be treated like a puppy than a man, and have someone just put a blanket around me and handle all the sh*t in my life.
The difference is that I get to pick when I get treated like a puppy. These tropes aren't giving women the choice.
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