TvW Episode 2 Close Look

(Moved to Meta Dialog)

Okay, I asked repeatedly that people keep the outside dialogue outside. Would you mind redacting that and taking it to the meta-dialogue thread? Thanks.

TheHarpoMarxist wrote:

Does anyone have anything else to bring up in regards to this beat, or did we miss anything that had been brought up? I'm personally GTG.

GTG!

GTG

(Redacted)

Conforming in three two one.

Is this a typo for 'confirming' or a sarcastic aside?

(Redacted)

I think the protocols are pretty clear. I had *just* asked you to leave the outside dialogue outside. Now I'm going to ask you to take a time out for a beat or two, and please remove the meta-dialogue. Thanks.

(Redacted)

Wow, we didn't even get past two pages or into the second beat this time.

(Redacted)

No.

You put words in her mouth and we aren't happy (and you subsequently ask us not to do that very same thing to you).

You "praise her" (i.e. post derisive, mocking comments) instead of engaging in a discussion and we aren't happy.

You should try holding yourself to the standards you expect of others, and try sticking to simple, honest dialogue instead of perceiving every disagreement as a personal slight and diving to the defensive with both fists swinging. That would make us happy. And then we all -- including you -- win. The only ones who lose at that point are those who take unfair pot-shots at you (and yes, that's happened, but it's hard for me to stick up for you when you're taking unfair pot-shots yourself).

I'm not saying anything here I haven't been communicating all along.

Ok. I removed all my remarks. Lets proceed.

Moving them to your sig line isn't removing them. C'mon, man. Is this really how you want to represent yourself?

I'll be posting Beat 2 this AM EST. i think you should take a time out at the least. If you don't want to participate that's fine, but don't ruin it for everyone else.

As I said on the other thread, I've been told to take the weekend off from p and c. I'll catch up after. Proceed.

Okay. If you are actually serious though about participating, I'm going to ask you to change the sarcastic / mocking sig line. Totally inappropriate.

Beat 2 wrote:

In our previous episode we explored the history of the Damsel in Distress and how the trope became so pervasive in classic era games from the 80s and early 90s. We also explored some of the core reasons why damsel’ed characters are so problematic as representations of women. So if you haven’t seen it yet, please check that one out before continuing to watch this one.

As a trope the damsel in distress is a plot device in which a female character is placed in a perilous situation from which she cannot escape on her own and then must be rescued by a male character, usually providing an incentive or motivation for the protagonist’s quest.

Now it might be tempting to think the Damsel in Distress was just a product of its time, and that by now surely the trope must be a thing of the past. Well, while we have seen a moderate increase in the number of playable female characters, the plot device has not gone away. In fact the Damsel in Distress has even seen a bit of a resurgence in recent years.

Clip – Montage

The Bouncer– [Screams]
TimeSplitters 2- [Screams]
Rygar: The Legendary Adventure– “Rygar!”
Maximo: Ghosts to Glory- “Silence!”
Castlevainia: Harmony of Dissonance- “Nooo!
Grabbed by the Ghoulies- [Muffled screams]
Resident Evil 4- [Screams]
Red Steel- “You’ve got to get me out of here”
Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword– [Screams]
Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones- [Laughter]
Devil May Cry 4- “Come and get her”
Prototype- “Alex!”
Ghostbusters: The Video Game- [Screams}
Splatterhouse (2010)- “He’s…He’s hurting me”
Alan Wake- [Screams]“Alice?!”
Deadlight- “Help, Please!”
Hitman: Absolution- “Bullet in her head!”
Ninja Gaiden II- “What a dear little bird you are”

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg; suffice it to say the trope is alive and well even today.

Time: 1:15 - 2:57

This beat starts with a recap and then move sinto a set-up for the rest of the video. It is nice that the montages get notated better now, and I certainly felt like all of these examples, when placed side by side, were pretty impactful.

GTG.

Nothing interesting or noteworthy here. This could have been combined with the first video and presented as a problem that has existed in the past to the present.
GTG

I think that's the idea, BoH. The last video focused on the lynchpin older games, and this one is moving on to the present.

Nothing objectionable, and I like that she has more source references in the text details of the video.

GTG.

Beat 3 wrote:

Clip- Devil May Cry 4
“Let her go!”

And since the majority of these titles focus of delivering crude, unsophisticated male power fantasies, developers are largely unwilling to give up the Damsel in Distress model as an easy default motivation for their brooding male heroes or anti-heroes. Remember that as a trope the Damsel in Distress is a plot device used by writers, and not necessarily always just a one-dimensional character type entirely defined by victimhood.

Now and then Damsel’d characters may be well written, funny, dynamic or likeable.

Clip- Psychonauts
“I’m just trying to set you on fire through this stupid hat!”
“What a delightfully mean little brain you have.”

However this extra character development tends to make their eventual disempowerment all the more frustrating. Damsels on the more sassy end of the spectrum may struggle with their captors…

Clip- Hitman: Absolution
“Get away from me!”

… or even attempt an escape on their own but inevitably their efforts always prove futile. Occasionally they may be allowed to offer the hero a last minute helping hand or to kick the bad guy while he’s down but these moments are largely symbolic and typically only happen after the core adventure is over or the danger has passed.

These token gestures of pseudo-empowerment don’t really offer any meaningful change to the core of the trope and it feels like developers just throw these moments in at the last minute to try to excuse their continued reliance on the damsel in distress.

Time: 2:58 - 4:14

I actually disagree Baron, she talked about the historical origins... and then moved into... well, we're living in a more progressive time now, obviously this has gotten better right? Oh wait... *18 clips showing this in a wide range of games* I think that was kind of a humorous (if snarky humorous, even if she isn't particularly snarky sounding in tone here) of how things really haven't gotten that much better just because we now occasionally have female protagonists (with a future video for how even those female protagonists are frequently treated very differently from male protagonists).

Beat 3 wrote:

the majority of these titles focus of delivering crude, unsophisticated male power fantasies

My initial reaction to this is that it's a bit loaded, but that's because "crude" in particular has been given an unnecessarily negative connotation over time.

I liken this to how I use the word "ignorant" more frequently than most people, but I use it in its literal sense, with no negative connotation intended.

And in this beat, "crude" really is the most accurate word I can think of for Sarkeesian to use. In conjunction with "unsophisticated" it gets across that she is not casting aspersion on the existence of simple male power fantasties. I think she has been magnanimous enough throughout the first video and into this one that it is disingenuous to try to put words into her mouth and claim that she's called for the elimination of all instances of this.

If we leave aside any outside baggage, what she is simply pointing to here is that the majority of the titles she is referring to here are using the most basic elements of male power fantasies without making the effort to build meaningfully upon that archetype. Thus, crude and unsophisticated. And she is saying that since the developers aren't showing an interest in making the core of their game's archetype more sophisticated, it logically explains why they are likewise resorting to one of the easiest motivation models of that archetype: the damsel in distress.

As for the rest of the beat, when she makes her point about feeble attempts to break the Damsel mold, she shows her characteristic deliberation behind phrasing (yes, again, she isn't 100% successful all the time, but she adheres to it quite consistently):

Beat 3 wrote:

These token gestures of pseudo-empowerment don’t really offer any meaningful change to the core of the trope and it feels like developers just throw these moments in at the last minute to try to excuse their continued reliance on the damsel in distress.

She isn't stating authoritatively what the developers' intentions are; she acknowledges that this is a emotional or anecdotal response on her part by stating that -- to her -- it feels like this.

I am ok with someone offering a personal thought in a piece like this so long as they differentiate between personal thoughts and sourced information.

GTG.

That's a great post Farscry.

It really does articulate my own feelings when I see those kind of moments in games, film, or TV. It feels so half-assed. Which is definitely not the same as it actually being half-assed.

I know that as a young writer I struggled in some similar ways. If someone only has access to models that contain stories within a very basic parameters, you're adding a blind spot to that person's artistic eye. Those can be overcome, but it takes work.

Part of the problem is we do see so much stuff that follows these patterns that breaking out of them in any way is a challenge. It requires a revelation, and even after a revelation there are missteps. I know I've written scripts or stories, realized they've been male dominated, and made some half-assed attempts to shoehorn in less passivity. The intent wasn't to excuse the reliance old cliches, but rather the first few baby steps towards not relying on those cliches.

But even then, an audience would read it or see it and I'm sure most of them would think "yup, that just feels like half-baked justification." The word choice in this beat is particularly strong and precise, in my opinion.

GTG.

Beat 4 wrote:

Periodically, game developers may attempt to build a more flushed out relationship or emotional bond between Damsel’d character and the male protagonist. In the most decidedly patronizing examples depictions of female vulnerability are used for an easy way for writers to trigger an emotional reaction in male players.

As we discussed in our first episode, when female characters are damsel’ed, their ostensible agency is removed and they are reduced to a state of victimhood.

So narratives that frame intimacy, love or romance as something that blossoms from or hinges upon the disempowerment and victimization of women are extremely troubling because they tend to reinforce the widespread regressive notion that women in vulnerable, passive or subordinate positions are somehow desirable because of their state of powerlessness. Unfortunately these types of stories also help to perpetuate the paternalistic belief that power imbalances within romantic relationships appealing, expected, or normal.

Time: 4:15 - 5:14

I like that we're at least introducing why this trope could be damaging. You could argue whether the notion of "powerless women are attractive" is widespread or regressive; I'm content not to.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

I like that we're at least introducing why this trope could be damaging. You could argue whether the notion of "powerless women are attractive" is widespread or regressive; I'm content not to.

I am content to do so. If we're going to go to the appeals are that you feel good about doing something good (helping someone in need is something good, I remind you) and at worst being able to impress someone you might desire.

I'd also suggest that in a society where women are encouraged to do it all, there's anxiety about not being needed. If the helplessness of the damsel appeals at all its because it's nice to be needed. Feminism has not helped in this regard. So it's nice to have a simple little fantasy to compensate.

TheHarpoMarxist wrote:
Beat 4 wrote:

Periodically, game developers may attempt to build a more flushed out relationship or emotional bond between Damsel’d character and the male protagonist. In the most decidedly patronizing examples depictions of female vulnerability are used for an easy way for writers to trigger an emotional reaction in male players.

As we discussed in our first episode, when female characters are damsel’ed, their ostensible agency is removed and they are reduced to a state of victimhood.

So narratives that frame intimacy, love or romance as something that blossoms from or hinges upon the disempowerment and victimization of women are extremely troubling because they tend to reinforce the widespread regressive notion that women in vulnerable, passive or subordinate positions are somehow desirable because of their state of powerlessness. Unfortunately these types of stories also help to perpetuate the paternalistic belief that power imbalances within romantic relationships appealing, expected, or normal.

First: Fleshed out.

I agree with Chumpy that this is some good, concrete evidence that the DiD trope is actively harmful to women in real life. A good exercise, I think, would be to alternatively replace the character with a puppy and with a man, and see which one is more/less ridiculous. If a scenario works better as rescuing a helpless little puppy who can't do anything but yip and cuddle vs a man, then the trope is damaging, because last I checked, women were closer in agency to men than they were to puppies.

That's not to discount the desire of some people of all genders to be taken care of, or to be needed just because you exist vs because of what you can do, or what have you. There are times when I'd rather be treated like a puppy than a man, and have someone just put a blanket around me and handle all the sh*t in my life.

The difference is that I get to pick when I get treated like a puppy. These tropes aren't giving women the choice.