TvW Episode 2 Close Look

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Thread Rules

A list of sources and links for this installment is available here. There is also a list of games that get spoiled to some extent in this video.

Beat 1

Spoiler:

Welcome to the 2nd episode in our multi-part series exploring the roles and representations of women in video games. This project examines the tropes, plot devices and patterns most commonly associated with women in gaming systemic, big picture perspective.

Over the course of this series I will be offering critical analysis of many popular games and characters, but please keep in mind that it’s both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy a piece of media while also being critical of it’s more problematic or pernicious aspects.

I just want to caution viewers that as we delve into more modern games we will be discussing examples that employ some particularly gruesome and graphic depictions of violence against women. I’ll do my best to only show what is necessary but this episode does come with a trigger warning. It’s also recommended that parents preview the video first before sharing with younger children.

Beat 2

Spoiler:

In our previous episode we explored the history of the Damsel in Distress and how the trope became so pervasive in classic era games from the 80s and early 90s. We also explored some of the core reasons why damsel’ed characters are so problematic as representations of women. So if you haven’t seen it yet, please check that one out before continuing to watch this one.

As a trope the damsel in distress is a plot device in which a female character is placed in a perilous situation from which she cannot escape on her own and then must be rescued by a male character, usually providing an incentive or motivation for the protagonist’s quest.

Now it might be tempting to think the Damsel in Distress was just a product of its time, and that by now surely the trope must be a thing of the past. Well, while we have seen a moderate increase in the number of playable female characters, the plot device has not gone away. In fact the Damsel in Distress has even seen a bit of a resurgence in recent years.

Clip – Montage

The Bouncer– [Screams]
TimeSplitters 2- [Screams]
Rygar: The Legendary Adventure– “Rygar!”
Maximo: Ghosts to Glory- “Silence!”
Castlevainia: Harmony of Dissonance- “Nooo!
Grabbed by the Ghoulies- [Muffled screams]
Resident Evil 4- [Screams]
Red Steel- “You’ve got to get me out of here”
Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword– [Screams]
Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones- [Laughter]
Devil May Cry 4- “Come and get her”
Prototype- “Alex!”
Ghostbusters: The Video Game- [Screams}
Splatterhouse (2010)- “He’s…He’s hurting me”
Alan Wake- [Screams]“Alice?!”
Deadlight- “Help, Please!”
Hitman: Absolution- “Bullet in her head!”
Ninja Gaiden II- “What a dear little bird you are”

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg; suffice it to say the trope is alive and well even today.

Beat 3

Spoiler:

Clip- Devil May Cry 4
“Let her go!”

And since the majority of these titles focus of delivering crude, unsophisticated male power fantasies, developers are largely unwilling to give up the Damsel in Distress model as an easy default motivation for their brooding male heroes or anti-heroes. Remember that as a trope the Damsel in Distress is a plot device used by writers, and not necessarily always just a one-dimensional character type entirely defined by victimhood.

Now and then Damsel’d characters may be well written, funny, dynamic or likeable.

Clip- Psychonauts
“I’m just trying to set you on fire through this stupid hat!”
“What a delightfully mean little brain you have.”

However this extra character development tends to make their eventual disempowerment all the more frustrating. Damsels on the more sassy end of the spectrum may struggle with their captors…

Clip- Hitman: Absolution
“Get away from me!”

… or even attempt an escape on their own but inevitably their efforts always prove futile. Occasionally they may be allowed to offer the hero a last minute helping hand or to kick the bad guy while he’s down but these moments are largely symbolic and typically only happen after the core adventure is over or the danger has passed.

These token gestures of pseudo-empowerment don’t really offer any meaningful change to the core of the trope and it feels like developers just throw these moments in at the last minute to try to excuse their continued reliance on the damsel in distress.

Beat 4

Spoiler:

Periodically, game developers may attempt to build a more flushed out relationship or emotional bond between Damsel’d character and the male protagonist. In the most decidedly patronizing examples depictions of female vulnerability are used for an easy way for writers to trigger an emotional reaction in male players.

As we discussed in our first episode, when female characters are damsel’ed, their ostensible agency is removed and they are reduced to a state of victimhood.

So narratives that frame intimacy, love or romance as something that blossoms from or hinges upon the disempowerment and victimization of women are extremely troubling because they tend to reinforce the widespread regressive notion that women in vulnerable, passive or subordinate positions are somehow desirable because of their state of powerlessness. Unfortunately these types of stories also help to perpetuate the paternalistic belief that power imbalances within romantic relationships appealing, expected, or normal.

Beat 5

Spoiler:

Ok so we know that the Damsel in Distress is alive and well in gaming but that’s not the full picture, there’s even more insidious side to the story. Over the past decade game companies have been desperately searching for ways to stand out in a market increasingly oversaturated with very similar products. As a consequence we’ve seen a dramatic increase in the number of games attempting to cut through the clutter by being as “dark and edgy” as possible.

So we’ve seen developers try to spice up the Damsel in Distress cliché by combining it with other tropes that involve victimized women. I’ve identified a few of the most common of these trope-cocktails, which join together multiple regressive or negative representations of women including the disposable woman, the mercy killing and the woman in the refrigerator.

The term “Women in Refrigerators” was coined in the late 1990s by comic book writer Gail Simone to describe the trend of female comic book characters who are routinely brutalized or killed-off as a plot device designed to move the male character’s story arc forward. The trope name comes from Green Lantern issue #54, in which the superhero returns home to find his girlfriend murdered and stuffed inside his refrigerator.

This trading of female characters lives for something meant to resemble male character development is of course part of a long media tradition, but the gruesome death of women for shock value is especially prevalent in modern gaming. The Women in the Refrigerator trope is used as the cornerstone of some of the most famous contemporary video games. It provides the core motivational hook behind both the Max Payne and the God of War series for example.

Clip- God of War
“My wife…my child…”

In each case the protagonists’ wife and daughter are brutally murdered and their deaths are then used by the developers as a pretext for their inevitable bloody revenge quest. It’s interesting to note that the reversed scenario, games hinging on a woman vowing revenge for her murdered boyfriend or husband are practically nonexistent. The gender role reversal is so unusual that it borders on the absurd, which is one of the reason’s why this scene from Disney’s Wreck it Ralph is so humorous.

Beat 6

Spoiler:

I could do a very long video just exploring this one trope in gaming, but today I want to look at how the Woman in the Refrigerator is connected to the Damsel in Distress and specifically the ways game developers have found to combine these two plot devices. One popular variation is to simply use both tropes in the same plotline so as to have the male protagonist’s wife stuffed in the fridge while his daughter is damsel’ed.

In Outlaws (1997) your wife is brutally murdered and you then have to rescue your daughter.

Clip- Outlaws
“Who did this?”
“They’ve taken Sarah”

In Kane & Lynch your wife is brutally murdered and you then have to rescue your daughter.

Clip- Kane and Lynch
“I’ll find them all before they find Jenny”

In Prototype 2 your wife is brutally murdered and you then have to rescue your daughter.

In Inversion your wife is brutally murdered and you then have to rescue your daughter.

Clip- Inversion
“Leila, where is she?”

In Asura’s Wrath your wife is brutally murdered and you then have to rescue your daughter.

Clip- Asura’s Wrath
“Save her.”

In Dishonored the empress is brutally murdered and you then have to rescue her daughter – though it’s heavily implied that she is your daughter too.

Clip- Dishonored
“Find Emily. Protect her!”

Beat 7

Spoiler:

It’s no coincidence that the fridged plot device and the damsel plot device work in much the same way, both involve female characters who have been reduced to states of complete powerlessness by the narrative. One via kidnapping and the other via murder. The two plot devices used together then allow developers to exploit both the revenge motivation and the good old fashioned “save the girl” motivation.

Believe it or not there is another more insidious version of this particular trope-hybrid, which I call the Damsel in the Refrigerator. Now you may be asking yourself how can a fridged woman still be in distress? Since by definition being fridged usually sort of requires… being dead. Well here’s how it works — The Damsel in the Refrigerator occurs when the hero’s sweetheart is brutally murdered and her soul is then trapped or abducted by the villain. This ‘oh so dark and edgy twist’ provides players with a double dose of female disempowerment and allows developers to again exploit both the revenge motivation and the saving the damsel motivation but this time with the same woman at the same time.

This trope-combination can be traced back to old school sidescrollers like Splatterhouse 2 and Ghouls’n Ghosts but the Damsel in the Refrigerator has definitely become a more popular trend in recent years.

In Medievil 2 your murdered girlfriend’s soul is stolen and you must fight to save her.

Clip- Medievil 2
[Screams]

In The Darkness 2 your murdered girlfriend’s soul is trapped in hell and you must fight to free her.

Clip- The Darkness 2
“Her soul is mine!”

In Shadows of the Damned your murdered girlfriend’s soul is trapped in hell and you must fight to free her.

Clip- Shadows of the Damned
“Yes, help her!”
[Screams]

In Dante’s Inferno your murdered wife’s soul is trapped in hell and you must fight to free her.

In Castlevania: Lords of Shadow your murdered wife’s soul is trapped on Earth and you fight to free her.

Beat 8

Spoiler:

The Damsel in the Refrigerator is part of larger trend of throwing women under the bus in increasingly gruesome ways in an apparent attempt to interject what I’ll loosely refer to as “mature themes”. Developers must be hoping that by exploiting sensationalized images of brutalized women it will be enough to fool gamers into thinking their games are becoming more emotionally sophisticated, but the truth is there is nothing “mature” about most of these stories and many of them cross the line into blatant misogyny.

Since what we are really talking about here are depictions of violence against women it might be useful to quickly define what I mean by that term. When I say Violence Against Women I’m primarily referring to images of women being victimized or when violence is specifically linked to a character’s gender or sexuality. Female characters who happen to be involved in violent or combat situations on relatively equal footing with their opponents are typically be exempt them from this category because they are usually not framed as victims.

Beat 9

Spoiler:

As I mentioned in our last video the damsel in distress doesn’t always have to be accompanied by a heroic rescue.

Clip- Max Payne 3
“Here I was again, with all hell breaking loose around me, standing over another dead girl I had been trying to protect”

Sometimes the hero fails to save the woman in question either because he arrives too late or because (surprise twist!) she has been dead the whole time.

Clip Montage
Dead Space – “Nicole has been dead this whole time”
Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones (2005)- “No! Kaileena!”
InFamous- “All my powers…and I couldn’t do a thing”
Deadlight- [Cries] “Kill me”

Or in the case of the 2009 version of Bionic Commando, not only has your wife been dead the whole time but, turns out she’s also part of your bionic arm.

Clip- Bionic Commando
“I never wanted you to be involved in this”
“It’s okay, I’ll always be by your side”

Yes you heard that correctly, his wife IS his arm.

Beat 10

Spoiler:

But the most extreme and gruesome variant of this trend is when developers combine the damsel in distress with the mercy killing. This usually happens when the player character must murder the woman in peril “for her own good”. I like to call this happy little gem the “Euthanized Damsel”. Typically the damsel has been mutilated or deformed in some way by the villain and the “only option left” to the hero is to put her “out of her misery” himself.

We can trace this one back to the original 1980s arcade game Splatterhouse in which your kidnapped girlfriend is possessed and the player is forced to fight and kill her.

After saving his bitten beloved in Castlevania: Lament of Innocence (2003) the hero must then kill her to gain the power to defeat Dracula.

Clip- Castlevania: Lament of Innocence
“Thank you”

In Breath of Fire 4 (2000) Elina has been turned into a hideous monster and then begs you to kill her.

In Gears of War 2, Dom is motivated to rescue his captured wife Maria. When he finds her, she has been starved and possibly tortured into a catatonic state; and so he shoots her.

In Tenchu: Shadow Assassins…

Clip- Tenchu: Shadow Assassins
“Do it, you must”

…the princess meekly asks the hero to cut her down to get to the villain, which he does.

A particularly egregious example can be found in Grand Theft Auto III (2001) when after you’ve rescued Maria Latore it’s implied that the protagonist suddenly shoots her because she is talking about stereotypically “girly things”.

Clip- Grand Theft Auto III
“I broke a nail, and my hair is ruined! Can you believe it? This one cost me $50!” [Gunshot]

The writers deliberately wrote her character to annoy the player so in the end, the violence against her becomes the punch line to a cheap, misogynist joke.

Beat 1 wrote:

Welcome to the 2nd episode in our multi-part series exploring the roles and representations of women in video games. This project examines the tropes, plot devices and patterns most commonly associated with women in gaming systemic, big picture perspective.

Over the course of this series I will be offering critical analysis of many popular games and characters, but please keep in mind that it’s both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy a piece of media while also being critical of it’s more problematic or pernicious aspects.

I just want to caution viewers that as we delve into more modern games we will be discussing examples that employ some particularly gruesome and graphic depictions of violence against women. I’ll do my best to only show what is necessary but this episode does come with a trigger warning. It’s also recommended that parents preview the video first before sharing with younger children.

Time: 0:00 - 1:14

GTG

The disclaimer returns, as well as a trigger warning.

One thing that I immediately note is that she's taken a lot more steps to make her sources easier to track for this installment.

Hey! No looking ahead!

Jolly Bill wrote:

Hey! No looking ahead! ;-)

Hah!

It is actually at the top of the transcript

For anyone who doesn't want to give Feminist Frequency clicks but wants the resources anyway: I'm going to be clicking into there a couple times during this thread anyway, so let me know and I'll pull any of the referenced data into this thread for you. Or I'm sure TheHarpoMarxist will as well.

LINKS & RESOURCES

The normalization of violence in heterosexual romantic relationships: Womens’ narratives of love and violence by Julia T. Wood
Every 9 Seconds: a non-profit committed to Education, Prevention, Intervention & Legislative lobbying to create change in the arena of domestic violence victimization and survivor incarceration worldwide.
Facts and Statistics about Domestic Violence
Women in Refrigerators: this is the official WIR website including Simone’s original letter, full list of comic book characters as well as responses from other comic book fans.
Dear Esther
To The Moon
Passage
Errant Signal – “Edgy” Video Games
For more examples of the Damsel in Distress see our Tumblr for this series: http://tropesversuswomen.tumblr.com

DEFINITIONS
The Damsel in Distress: As a trope the damsel in distress is a plot device in which a female character is placed in a perilous situation from which she cannot escape on her own and must then be rescued by a male character, usually providing an incentive or motivation for the protagonist’s quest. This is most often accomplished via kidnapping but it can also take the form of petrification, a curse or demon possession. Traditionally the woman in distress is a love interest or family member of the hero; princesses, wives, girlfriends and sisters are all commonly used to fill the role.

Damsel in the Refrigerator: A combination of the Women in Refrigerators trope and the Damsel in Distress trope. Typically this happens when a female character is killed near the beginning of a story but her soul is then stolen or trapped and must be rescued or freed by the male hero. Occasionally time travel or some other form of resurrection may be involved in the quest to bring the women in question back from the dead.

Disposable Damsel: A variant of the Damsel in Distress trope in which the hero fails to save the woman in peril either because he arrives too late or because (surprise twist!) it turns out she has been dead the whole time.

Euthanized Damsel: A combination of the Damsel in Distress trope and the Mercy Killing trope. This usually happens when the player character must murder the woman in peril “for her own good”. Typically the damsel has been mutilated or deformed in some way by the villain and the “only option left” to the hero is to put her “out of her misery” himself. Occasionally the damsel’ed character will be written so as beg the player to kill her.

ABOUT THE SERIES
The Tropes vs Women in Video Games project aims to examine the plot devices and patterns most often associated with female characters in gaming from a systemic, big picture perspective. This series will include critical analysis of many beloved games and characters, but remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it’s more problematic or pernicious aspects. This video series is created by Anita Sarkeesian and the project was funded by 6968 awesome backers on Kickstarter.com

SPOILER WARNING LIST: Major plot points or endings in the following games:
· Bionic Commando (2009)
· Borderlands 2 (2012)
· Breath of Fire IV (2000)
· Castlevania: The Dracula X Chronicles (2007)
· Castlevania: Lament of Innocence (2003)
· Castlevania: Lords of Shadow (2010)
· Dante’s Inferno (2010)
· The Darkness II (2012)
· Dead Space (2008)
· Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs The Soulless Army (2006)
· Double Dragon Neon (2012)
· Gears of War 2 (2008)
· God of War: Ghost of Sparta (2010)
· The Godfather: The Game (2006)
· Grand Theft Auto III (2001)
· Hotline Miami (2012)
· Ico (2001)
· Infamous (2009)
· Inversion (2012)
· Kane & Lunch: Dead Men (2007)
· The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006)
· MediEvil 2 (2000)
· Ninja Gaiden 3 (2010)
· Pandora’s Tower (2011)
· Prey (2006)
· Resident Evil 5 (2009)
· Shadows of the Damned (2011)
· Tenchu: Shadow Assassins (2009)

Dramatizing for persuasive effect with the trigger warning.

I don't buy that it's necessary to be critical of the games you're playing. And pernicious is an assumption at this point. GTG

WideAndNerdy wrote:

Dramatizing for persuasive effect with the trigger warning.

My immediate reaction to this comment is anger and the desire to make a cutting sarcastic remark.

Try to remember that there are people for whom these things are emotional triggers. You might be a stone-cold mofo, but that's not the case for everyone viewing these things.

And yes, I'm sincerely angry that you made such a dismissive and insulting comment.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

Dramatizing for persuasive effect with the trigger warning.

I don't buy that it's necessary to be critical of the games you're playing. And pernicious is an assumption at this point. GTG

Protocols for this discussion wrote:

For the purposes of this close look, we are taking Sarkeesian's words from a place of good faith

Can't help but note that the growing list of categories of damsel undermines her argument for lack of variety. She has several categories now based on the notes.

Also, since it's necessary to both enjoy and criticize, where is the enjoy part?

But I can see how this perpetuates the stereotype that deceased women's immortal souls are vulnerable to demons. It's just too real to justify depicting in a video game.

WideAndNerdy, have you read this?

WideAndNerdy wrote:

Can't help but note that the growing list of categories of damsel undermines her argument for lack of variety. She has several categories now based on the notes.

Also, since it's necessary to both enjoy and criticize, where is the enjoy part?

But I can see how this perpetuates the stereotype that deceased women's immortal souls are vulnerable to demons. It's just too real to justify depicting in a video game.

The enjoy part is what you do while playing the game. She's providing the critical analysis, the enjoyment of any game is for each player to find on their own.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

Dramatizing for persuasive effect with the trigger warning.

I don't buy that it's necessary to be critical of the games you're playing. And pernicious is an assumption at this point. GTG

Given that we have people on this forum who have been the victims of such violence. I'd walk that comment back right now. Seriously, you may think you're being edgy or smart, but comments like that are insults to other members of this board.

As to the "it's not necessary to be critical", if it's not, why are you even here? Why care about any critical analysis? Just play your games and enjoy them for what they are and let other people do with their games as they so choose to enjoy them as they want to.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

Can't help but note that the growing list of categories of damsel undermines her argument for lack of variety. She has several categories now based on the notes.

It would help immensely if you bothered to rudimentarily educate yourself about the things being discussed.

What you seem to think are things that Sarkeesian is inventing are actually long-established and well-understood variants of the Damsel in Distress trope. Perusing TV Tropes for five minutes would tell you that.

Demosthenes wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

Can't help but note that the growing list of categories of damsel undermines her argument for lack of variety. She has several categories now based on the notes.

Also, since it's necessary to both enjoy and criticize, where is the enjoy part?

But I can see how this perpetuates the stereotype that deceased women's immortal souls are vulnerable to demons. It's just too real to justify depicting in a video game.

The enjoy part is what you do while playing the game. She's providing the critical analysis, the enjoyment of any game is for each player to find on their own.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

Dramatizing for persuasive effect with the trigger warning.

I don't buy that it's necessary to be critical of the games you're playing. And pernicious is an assumption at this point. GTG

Given that we have people on this forum who have been the victims of such violence. I'd walk that comment back right now. Seriously, you may think you're being edgy or smart, but comments like that are insults to other members of this board.

As to the "it's not necessary to be critical", if it's not, why are you even here? Why care about any critical analysis? Just play your games and enjoy them for what they are and let other people do with their games as they so choose to enjoy them as they want to.

Whether Anita calls for action or not, someone is going to think action is called for. So criticism of the critique that could inspire that action is warranted.

OG_slinger wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

Can't help but note that the growing list of categories of damsel undermines her argument for lack of variety. She has several categories now based on the notes.

It would help immensely if you bothered to rudimentarily educate yourself about the things being discussed.

What you seem to think are things that Sarkeesian is inventing are actually long-established and well-understood variants of the Damsel in Distress trope. Perusing TV Tropes for five minutes would tell you that.

I know. I was once addicted to that site. Doesn't change my point that she's finding a lot of variety for a supposedly overused trope. And that's just what she's been willing to acknowledge.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

I know. I was once addicted to that site. Doesn't change my point that she's finding a lot of variety for a supposedly overused trope. And that's just what she's been willing to acknowledge.

If you actually knew then you wouldn't have gotten offended when Sarkeesian mentioned the Smooch of Victory trope in the first episode. You certainly wouldn't have thought she made the phrase up to be sarcastic to or disdainful of gamers.

And all the variants she mentioned just involve the damsel dying in different ways and at different times. That's not real variety nor does it change the fact that the damsel--alive or dead--just exists to motivate the (primarily male) protagonist.

Tropes by definition are overused. Just because lots of things have been overused doesn't somehow make any one of them less overused.

Whether Anita calls for action or not, someone is going to think action is called for. So criticism of the critique that could inspire that action is warranted.

Actually, we're really trying to keep the outside dialogue out of this. It doesn't matter if you feel like someone will read this and then act in some reckless fashion, and it has no bearing on what Sarkeesian is actually saying. Which is the purpose of this thread.

TheHarpoMarxist wrote:

WideAndNerdy, have you read this?

Repeating this question, because I don't think you answered it and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt - perhaps you haven't read it yet. Please let me know if you have or when you have.

OG_slinger wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

I know. I was once addicted to that site. Doesn't change my point that she's finding a lot of variety for a supposedly overused trope. And that's just what she's been willing to acknowledge.

If you actually knew then you wouldn't have gotten offended when Sarkeesian mentioned the Smooch of Victory trope in the first episode. You certainly wouldn't have thought she made the phrase up to be sarcastic to or disdainful of gamers.

And all the variants she mentioned just involve the damsel dying in different ways and at different times. That's not real variety nor does it change the fact that the damsel--alive or dead--just exists to motivate the (primarily male) protagonist.

Wow. You just proved that I don't have perfect all encompassing knowledge of a vast wiki. Um, point conceded?

And you can be that reductive about anything when it comes to the variety question. You could argue that the whole "hero overcoming a challenge" thing has grown stale if you want to dismiss all the variations in how that story can be told.

I'll only accept the "good faith" clause if you all pay me the same courtesy. I've been letting a lot of twisting of my words slide because I'm already having a hard time keeping up as it is being outnumbered

And you can be that reductive about anything when it comes to the variety question. You could argue that the whole "hero overcoming a challenge" thing has grown stale if you want to dismiss all the variations in how that story can be told.

You could argue that, but that's not what's being argued here. She's talking about the specific trope of The Damsel In Distress and its variants.

Spoiler:

Christopher Booker's "The Seven Basic Plots" is a good book for those interested in going down that rabbit hole.

I will say that if you can't accept that clause then this isn't the discussion for you. We're looking at what Sarkeesian is actually saying and we're trying to do so in a vaccuum.

In the meantime I haven't seen anybody twisting your words - they are engaging you and arguing with you. There is a protocol about being respectful, and I'm keeping an eye on it. I will do a once over on everything that people have said so far - perhaps I'm missing something.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

Doesn't change my point that she's finding a lot of variety for a supposedly overused trope.

Sure. Kidnapped; kidnapped and killed; kidnapped and killed even though the hero thinks she isn't; kidnapped, killed, then put in a fridge; kidnapped, killed, resurrected, and still used as bait; kidnapped, maimed/mortally wounded so she gets killed by the hero... However did we miss such wild variation? /s

I can see some of what WideAndNerdy is talking about. I mean, I'm assuming he clearly didn't intend to be dismissive of people the trigger warning is aimed at nor about the topic of sensitivity to victims. That his words could have come off that way is something that is potentially shocking, and in the context of this discussion, something I'd be a bit defensive about as well.

I think trigger warnings in general, and the concept of being 'triggered' have gotten a bad rap in a lot of circles as being 'dramatizations' for those who aren't likely to experience such a thing.

For the purpose of this discussion I think it's safe to say we're all at least nominally empathic people who would not intentionally dismiss or invalidate folks who would actually shut this video off at this point for fear of seeing violent images. We can disagree about how much the warning may be a dramatization while focusing on the content.

After all, if the research and references are solid it is at worst a dramatization for effect that's outside the scope of this thread. If the research and references are not solid, it's valid to bring up that the warning may contribute to a 'style over substance' impression of the video.

It just feels rather penned in. You've given your side a lot of outs with these rules because we have to take her on her terms. That really limits what we can discuss or criticize.

I tell you what, I'll do it if you can withhold saying things like "I don't see a problem with this" or "I have to say I agree" or snarking at her detractors. If we're really going to limit this to "this is what she said" we really should limit it to that and not make value judgments on the statements she's making positive or negative. It should be limited purely to "I think this is what she means, right or wrong"

WideAndNerdy wrote:

I'll only accept the "good faith" clause if you all pay me the same courtesy. I've been letting a lot of twisting of my words slide because I'm already having a hard time keeping up as it is being outnumbered

No twisting of your words on my part. And if I inadvertently do, please call me out on it.

I do think that, dogpiling aside, the point I made in my previous post was very fair. I respect your right to disagree up until the point where you become dismissive and insulting to others about things that are very real to them.

As someone who - like me - struggles with self-esteem, I hope that you can be receptive to understanding when you have made a statement that cuts down others and make that right.

I know that we have a lot of definitions up, but let's try and talk about them as we get to them. We're still in first beat.

I looked things over and I didn't find anyone twisting anything you said. I do think some stuff is getting emotionally charged, but it mostly revolves around this comment you made, W&N:

Dramatizing for persuasive effect with the trigger warning.

I'll remind everyone of the protocol to be respectful of each other. This type of comment is decidedly not respectful, but neither is sarcasm. So let's all take a deep breath.

Jolly Bill wrote:

I can see some of what WideAndNerdy is talking about. I mean, I'm assuming he clearly didn't intend to be dismissive of people the trigger warning is aimed at nor about the topic of sensitivity to victims. That his words could have come off that way is something that is potentially shocking, and in the context of this discussion, something I'd be a bit defensive about as well.

I think trigger warnings in general, and the concept of being 'triggered' have gotten a bad rap in a lot of circles as being 'dramatizations' for those who aren't likely to experience such a thing.

For the purpose of this discussion I think it's safe to say we're all at least nominally empathic people who would not intentionally dismiss or invalidate folks who would actually shut this video off at this point for fear of seeing violent images. We can disagree about how much the warning may be a dramatization while focusing on the content.

After all, if the research and references are solid it is at worst a dramatization for effect that's outside the scope of this thread. If the research and references are not solid, it's valid to bring up that the warning may contribute to a 'style over substance' impression of the video.

That is an example yes. I used to get triggered over depictions of fatal illness particularly cancer (due to people dying in my life and me thinking at different times that I might have it. Plus I'm naturally panicky) but I don't think society is obligated to tiptoe around me. It's on me to get help and make adjustments.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

I tell you what, I'll do it if you can withhold saying things like "I don't see a problem with this" or "I have to say I agree" or snarking at her detractors.

We're talking about what she actually said, and we're leaving the meta-dialogue outside of the thread. So we're leaving her detractors out of it entirely.

I do think people are allowed to agree and also to not see problems with something.

Again, the reason we're assuming good faith is because we're taking what people say at their word. To assume bad faith is a swing at a shadow. You can still interpret and disagree with someone and assume their good faith. The trigger warning, we should assume, comes from an actual desire to let people who might be affected by these types of images know what they are in for.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

That is an example yes. I used to get triggered over depictions of fatal illness particularly cancer (due to people dying in my life and me thinking at different times that I might have it. Plus I'm naturally panicky) but I don't think society is obligated to tiptoe around me. It's on me to get help and make adjustments.

Sure. No one is obligated to do so. I'd think it would be friendly do to so, though. I don't think anyone obligated Sarkeesian to do so here, and I don't think she's obligating others to do so.

Farscry wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

I'll only accept the "good faith" clause if you all pay me the same courtesy. I've been letting a lot of twisting of my words slide because I'm already having a hard time keeping up as it is being outnumbered

No twisting of your words on my part. And if I inadvertently do, please call me out on it.

I do think that, dogpiling aside, the point I made in my previous post was very fair. I respect your right to disagree up until the point where you become dismissive and insulting to others about things that are very real to them.

As someone who - like me - struggles with self-esteem, I hope that you can be receptive to understanding when you have made a statement that cuts down others and make that right.

I can sympathize with the desire not to be exposed (I'd have loved it if I could filter out all mention of terminal illness from media, I get that. I hate panic attacks. I feel like I'm going to die when I have them.) I don't mean to belittle the people who want trigger warnings even if I have some issues with the idea.

Jolly Bill wrote:

Sure. No one is obligated to do so. I'd think it would be friendly do to so, though. I don't think anyone obligated Sarkeesian to do so here, and I don't think she's obligating others to do so.

Totally agreed.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

I can sympathize with the desire not to be exposed (I'd have loved it if I could filter out all mention of terminal illness from media, I get that. I hate panic attacks. I feel like I'm going to die when I have them.) I don't mean to belittle the people who want trigger warnings even if I have some issues with the idea.

Thanks!

Does anyone have anything else to bring up in regards to this beat, or did we miss anything that had been brought up? I'm personally GTG.

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