Beat 5 wrote:In video games this is most often accomplished via kidnapping but it can also take the form of petrification or demon possession for example.
Traditionally the woman in distress is a family member or a love interest of the hero; princesses, wives, girlfriends and sisters are all commonly used to fill the role.
Of course the Damsel in Distress predates the invention of video games by several thousand years. The trope can be traced back to ancient greek mythology with the tale of Perseus.
According to the myth, Andromeda is about to be devoured by a sea monster after being chained naked to a rock as a human sacrifice. Perseus slays the beast, rescues the princess and then claims her as his wife.
It's interesting to see how it's evolved. Back then there really was that presumption that the woman is your prize whereas now the woman is expressing gratitude and/or being impressed with the feats performed, thus choosing the man after rescue.
Aside from that, the detail isn't anything substantial to comment on. Gtg
I have some interesting thoughts about the topic, but they'd be a pretty big derail from just discussing what Saarkesian has said so far. A bit hard to restrain myself.
Gtg
Establishing background for the trope in media. Not much to take issue with here.
GTG
GTG
Establishing background for the trope in media. Not much to take issue with here.
GTG
Yeah, can't really comment till she uses all this to start making statements or conclusions. Gtg
Yep. That's a mustache twirl alright.
1930, Walt Disney used the meme in an early Mickey Mouse cartoon called “The Gorilla Mystery”.
Hmm. Now that I think about it, Minnie Mouse sure got captured a lot. More so in the super early shorts.
By the by, the use of a gorilla as the villain often had blatant racist undertones, though that's probably a topic for another time.
GTG.
GTG
I see where this is going even if I hadn't seen the video before. Which I have, but can't remember, so I guess it counts?
Sure have burned a fair amount of this video now on non game examples. What have we got so far? This trope is a thing that happens. GTG. In fact I'm inclined to GTG until she starts making some kind of value judgment or assertion or something that we can actually evaluate. I have watched this before and until she gets to Peach, I don't recall there being anything worth cross examining.
(And even then, my quibble is going to be minor. A lot of people objected to Anita dismissing the fact that Peach is playable quite frequently outside of what she calls the "core" Mario titles. I like Kite Tale's rebuttal. Also, I like Kite Tales in general.)
And yes this is building up to Donkey Kong, which borrowed the giant ape premise because they couldn't secure the license to Popeye. If you've ever looked at the old arcade cabinet art you can even see the remnants of a popeye-esque first draft of Mario (very squinty). Also helps explain why the ape isn't that big. I believe this was supposed to be Bluto. For that matter, it could even explain why Mario is always dating taller women (that or just the fact that he'd have a very small dating pool otherwise, not that I think this needs explaining, just another similarity. Also both eat plant matter to power up).
EDIT: Linking to a picture because I think its kind of neat to notice how Popeye influenced Mario early on.
Beat 8 wrote:But it was in 1933 that two things happened which, 50 years later, would set the stage for the Damsel in Distress trope to become a foundational element in video games as a medium. First, Paramount Pictures introduced their animated series “Popeye the Sailor” to cinema audiences.
The formula for most shorts involves Popeye rescuing a kidnapped Olive Oyl.
Clip- Popeye the Sailor
marry me?!
Oh popeye, help!Second, in March of that year, RKO Pictures released their groundbreaking hit film “King Kong” in which a giant ape abducts a young woman and is eventually killed while trying to keep possession of her.
Clip- King Kong
[Screams]
Yup GTG
Really precarious situation. What if Popeye had been licensed to Nintendo when they first wanted it? Alternately, what if RKO Pictures had remembered to renew their copyright on King Kong (and thus their challenge against Donkey Kong had legs?) What if Nintendo had a different building super? So many ways we might never have gotten Mario and thus Mario Maker.
I'd also like to caution you with trying to "plan ahead." The function of this exercise is for all of us to take a fresh look at Sarkeesian's words. I've asked, multiple times, that people remain focused purely on the beats we're on, and to remain open minded. We all might be surprised. Perhaps Sarkeesian won't dismiss the fact that Peach is playable in other Mario offshoots. Perhaps she will say something that is an advocation for censorship. Our memories say one thing, but they've also been colored by the meta-dialogue.
Sorry, I mentioned what was coming and WnN finished my thought. Gonna be hard to hold back on those!
Edit: actually, there is a good point here. Are we allowed to discuss what the argument seems to be building to, regardless if she addresses it? Like, do we have to wait until the last beat in a video to discuss the direction of a buildup or perhaps a time where it goes in a different direction than expected?
I very much understand constraining discussion in this way, I'm just having a bit of trouble with micro dialogue vs meta dialogue. Discussing these bits at the end probably does make the most sense.
Thanks for taking the time to put this together, Harpo. Hopefully everyone can be courteous and respectful of the premise, and one another, so that the discussion can continue.
WnG, I am glad you are still with us - I followed the thread that spawned this one - and appreciate that you are taking the time to participate further. Remember that we're not all a collective mind, and that there are other areas of the forum where controversy can (mostly) be left at the door.
More history. Nothing too crazy. GTG.
Beat 9 wrote:Fast forward to 1981 when a Japanese company named Nintendo entrusted a young designer named Shigeru Miyamoto with the task of creating a new arcade game for the American market.
Originally, the project was conceived of as a game starring Popeye the Sailor, but when Nintendo wasn’t able to secure the rights, Miyamoto created his own characters to fill the void, heavily influenced by the movie, King Kong.
Clip- Donkey Kong
The game’s hero “Jump Man” is tasked with rescuing a damsel, named “The Lady” after she is carried off by a giant ape. In later versions she is renamed “Pauline”.
I wonder how much of this is helping to make her point? Sounds like a lot of this recitation of trivia at this point is an attempt to project authority on the subject matter so that later statements will be accepted on authority.
Thankfully in this thread we will be debating the merits of her actual points.
GTG.
MTG
I offer as a basis for comparison. SF Debris' recent series on the development of the Transformers. He'll seemingly sometimes go on tangents but it all comes back around at later points*. I'm dubious that this much of Mario's development history will actually prove relevant when it comes time for her to make a point.
Contrast her Star Fox example where its plain to see how its relevant.
*For example, the first video is actually about the development of GI Joe but if you're familiar with the history, you know why thats relevant and if you aren't he does a great job of explaining it. (Basically, they figured out the strategy for launching toylines with heavy narrative with GI Joe and then applied what they'd learned to their launch strategy for Transformers).
EDIT: I suppose the one way this could be relevant is making the point that Nintendo borrowed the damsel trope for Mario from Popeye. You could say King Kong is a cause too but its most likely they were already well underway with their project and decided to find another inspiration that fit the type of gameplay they were already designing.
I wonder how much of this is helping to make her point? Sounds like a lot of this recitation of trivia at this point is an attempt to project authority on the subject matter so that later statements will be accepted on authority.She is not "attempting" to project authority with any of this background information. She is doing what academics do - namely providing context and history. And yes, this does demonstrate some actual authority on the subject matter, but please remember: the purpose of this exercise is not to debate the merits of her points. The purpose of this thread is to try to go in "blind" and listen to what Sarkeesian is actually saying, and discuss that, separate from the noise / controversy / and outside commentary about her work.
Yes, there might be "debate" at certain junctures but I urge people to go into this exercise from a place where you aren't trying to score points for a side or win an argument, but rather from a place where you actually engaging with the substance of the content. Everyone should go in with an open mind and be prepared to be surprised, and possibly to re-evaluate.
There is nothing at all unusual or wrong with someone demonstrating authority about a subject they are researching, in my opinion. "Trivia" is somewhat dismissive. The Battle of Vinegar Hill, for example, might be historic "trivia" in a vaccuum, but if you're doing a series of videos about the Irish Revolution, or even the Second Coalition, then it is relative historical context - not "trivia." I would expect nothing less from someone researching anything.
That in mind, so far I think everything she has said has been pretty uncontroversial. We've gotten some historical context and the set up her topic exploration. We're close to the seven minute mark, for those interested in marking how far into the video we are.
Your edited statement's opening sentence is cogent, and I think is spot on. I can absolutely see a King Kong to Donkey Kong connection. I mean, it is right in the name, and "Jump Man" is clearly an early version of Mario. Both King Kong and Popeye play with the damsel trope and both seem extraoridinarily relevant to me in how they relate to Donkey Kong and Nintendo.
The Transformers thing looks like an interesting sidebar. I don't know how soon I'll have time to check it out, but I'll try.
GTG.
I'm just not sure how it helps her case unless she's looking to absolve Donkey Kong for using the trope while arguing that the fault lies with other devs for lazily copying.
I think it's absolving and damning at the same time. As is the case with a lot of unexamined sexist/racist stuff.
You didn't intentionally seek to minimize or insult women/minorities? Congratulations on not being an asshole! There are a ton of assholes out there, so it's nice to know you're not one of them.
You didn't know that what you were doing included themes that minimize or insult others? Well, we expected better but now that we're having the conversation we are glad to help you be more aware in the future.
Beat 10 wrote:Although Donkey Kong is perhaps the most famous early arcade game to feature the Damsel in Distress it wasn’t the first time Miyamoto employed the trope. Two years earlier, he had a hand in designing a 1979 arcade game called Sheriff.
Clip- Sheriff
In it a vague female-shaped collection of pixels, referred to as “The Beauty”, must be rescued from a pack of bandits. The hero is then rewarded with a “smooch of victory” for his bravery in the end.
A few years later Miyamoto recycled his Donkey Kong character designs; Pauline became the template for a new damsel named Princess Toadstool and “Jump Man” became a certain very famous plumber.
Clip- Super Mario Bros: The Great Mission to Save Princess Peach
[Screams]
Correction. Jumpman is generally considered to be Mario (or Mario steals Jumpman's girlfriend Pauline in the Mario vs Donkey Kong Series)
If we're to assume that Jumpman and Mario are different people then the recycling happened in Donkey Kong Jr when Mario gained his name and took a turn as the antagonist.
Was "smooch of victory" said with disdain or sarcasm? Also is she quoting the game or is that her term?
Is Jumpman Mario as a retcon? "Generally considered" is a little vague. It sounds like Sarkeesian is saying that Jumpman is an early iteration of a character that eventually became Mario. This seems to be empiraclly true to me.
As for her delivery, that's not what we're looking at here. We're examing the content of her words. Tone is one of the major fixations of the meta-dialogue, so that's one of the things we are leaving aside in this examination. Tone is the type of thing where it is easy to see what you want to see. As I've said, I'm asking people to assume good faith and just look at the words.
I'm not sure if she's quoting the game or if that's her term. My assumption is that it is her term, but she could just as easily have gotten it from an old interview with Miyamoto or from the game itself. Either way it warrants a quotation mark, as if it is her term than that's a good way to separate it out if she wants to come back and use it later, and if it is quoting the game then, well, it belongs in quotes.
Donkey Kong might be a retcon. Donkey Kong Jr. (Which precedes Super Mario Bros) the guy is explicitly named Mario. I remember that from when I owned it.
It's implied to be the same character since Mario has Donkey Kong from the first game in captivity.
Also sarcasm would indicate value judgment. That's of interest.
Also sarcasm would indicate value judgment. That's of interest.
It can also be really hard to state categorically that someone is being sarcastic; if the listener is of one pre-disposition or the other, they can frequently hear whichever suits them.
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