Liana Kerzner on the rift in gaming.

nel e nel wrote:

It doesn't cost me anything to sit back and let other folks have a chance to address their grievances, especially since culture and society has been catered to the default straight white male for so long.

It costs a feeling of community with those folks. At least for some of us. Some of us just can't emotionally connect to movements that involve this much shaming and disregard for Fee Fees. We can intellectually understand why it's necessary, but it means what was once a Labor of Love is now just Shovelling sh*t: just because something is literally a matter of life-and-death doesn't mean it isn't distasteful.

Is WideAndNerdy one of those people? I don't know. Maybe he's a lot like the people he's arguing with here, and when he sees the light, he'll disavow all this and fit in well with the people he's disagreeing with right now. That's been my experience.

WideAndNerdy, for what it's worth, check out those links Prederick posted here. Your experience of feminism if I can hazard a guess is just social media internet feminism. If so, it's worth learning more about it than just what filters across into the video game debate. Don't peg your understanding of anything to the microcosm of it you'll find in a subculture where, like, that Mass Effect Ending 'debate' happened.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

Well its like that with Anita's videos. She can pay lip service to the idea that she's totally cool with games if we'd just change a few things in a few games and we can all enjoy what we want but if you actually read all her work, and not just her videos, you can see that she'd never be happy with the state of video games without a huge shift in their focus. She'd pretty much want shooters and brawlers of all kinds shut down completely. She'd want women dressed puritanically and sporting indistinct bodies (you'll note her first choice for "positive female character in gaming" was literally a featureless pixellated blob with a blank slate personality and I like to think its because thats the only sort of character you can't assign any tropes to.) She'd be against even the ironic treatment of any of the tropes she's complained about, the only subversion of damseling she found acceptable was Braid and specifically because it portrayed the male as a stalker.

Anita has been on Idle Thumbs a few times. I think you've miscast her. Looking up those episodes may be worthwhile.

cheeze_pavilion wrote:
nel e nel wrote:

It doesn't cost me anything to sit back and let other folks have a chance to address their grievances, especially since culture and society has been catered to the default straight white male for so long.

It costs a feeling of community with those folks. At least for some of us. Some of us just can't emotionally connect to movements that involve this much shaming and disregard for Fee Fees. We can intellectually understand why it's necessary, but it means what was once a Labor of Love is now just Shovelling sh*t: just because something is literally a matter of life-and-death doesn't mean it isn't distasteful.

Is WideAndNerdy one of those people? I don't know. Maybe he's a lot like the people he's arguing with here, and when he sees the light, he'll disavow all this and fit in well with the people he's disagreeing with right now. That's been my experience.

Except that the feeling of 'community' your talking about has been exposed to have been exclusive, not inclusive. That sense of 'community' that many folks are fighting for, is the problem to begin with:

a boys club that more or less is the equivalent of "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" and is why these recent 'movements' have come up in the video gaming community in the first place. It's desperate grabs at a false narrative that games are a straight white male country club, when it in fact is not, and has never been.

Again, I really could care less about the shame and hurt fee fees of people who enjoyed the status quo for so long now, with little to no regard as to how it affected large parts of the community.

Modern feminism teaches that women need to stop being nice and stop apologizing ostensibly because men are rude and do not apologize.

Do you disagree with the first part? Do you think women need to start being nice and start apologizing?

The second part is, as you admit by using the word "ostensibly,", your conjecture and not actually reality based. Women "need to" stop being nice and stop apologizing because they've spent the last thousand years being viewed as property whose voice has no place in public discourse. Ostensibly.

(I don't think feminism tells any woman what they "need to" do.) "Feminism" is like "religion." it's pretty hard to define all supernatural beliefs worldwide with one snarky soundbyte.

I really like your take on this, nel. If I weren't on mobile in 26000lbs of rolling thunder I'd say a bunch more, but suffice it to say that equality sometimes requires that some folks find their safe spaces getting smaller while other folks find theirs getting larger. It's a cost, but it's one inherent to how equality works.

nel e nel wrote:
cheeze_pavilion wrote:
nel e nel wrote:

It doesn't cost me anything to sit back and let other folks have a chance to address their grievances, especially since culture and society has been catered to the default straight white male for so long.

It costs a feeling of community with those folks. At least for some of us. Some of us just can't emotionally connect to movements that involve this much shaming and disregard for Fee Fees. We can intellectually understand why it's necessary, but it means what was once a Labor of Love is now just Shovelling sh*t: just because something is literally a matter of life-and-death doesn't mean it isn't distasteful.

Is WideAndNerdy one of those people? I don't know. Maybe he's a lot like the people he's arguing with here, and when he sees the light, he'll disavow all this and fit in well with the people he's disagreeing with right now. That's been my experience.

Except that the feeling of 'community' your talking about has been exposed to have been exclusive, not inclusive. That sense of 'community' that many folks are fighting for, is the problem to begin with:

a boys club that more or less is the equivalent of "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" and is why these recent 'movements' have come up in the video gaming community in the first place. It's desperate grabs at a false narrative that games are a straight white male country club, when it in fact is not, and has never been.

Again, I really could care less about the shame and hurt fee fees of people who enjoyed the status quo for so long now, with little to no regard as to how it affected large parts of the community.

Pfft. There have been women in each and every one of my DnD groups. Those women were able to embrace the culture. Those women will always be welcome as far as I'm concerned. The ones we have a problem with are the ones who want substantial changes, and they are the minority even among female gamers.

Now there are some jackasses who get into the sexist stuff. Irrelevant stuff like studies about reaction times, spatial awareness, passive aggressive behavior. But in my experience the women who act like other gamers get along fine. The women who expect special accommodation for being women, or the one I so fondly remember grabbing her crotch and saying "I rule all of you because of this*", are the ones who will most often encounter friction. And my gaming experience goes back 15 years. I'll admit there's a little awkwardness at first because you don't know which kind you're getting till you've played a few sessions. Some can hold up the veneer for a game or two as the crotch grabber did.

*Yes, this did happen literally and exactly as I described it and it was hilarious. Later on she ended up storming off in a huff because a guy had taken her seat when she left the room** as we often do to each other, and then didn't immediately get up when she demanded it (specifically because she demanded it, he would have gotten up after a moments teasing but she stormed off). We don't like guys who act all alpha like that either and they don't get invited back.

**We were watching movies at this point. This wasn't at the game table.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

But in my experience the women who act like other gamers get along fine.

This is part of the problem. What is 'gamer'? Is there some sort of membership card or checklist of acceptable behaviors? If there is, I sure didn't see it.

And since we have now derailed into the realm of "well, MY friends aren't like that so it must be made up", I'm going to go ahead and bow out.

I certainly commend everyone for being engaged in respectful discourse, but it's clear you're not really interested in trying to meet halfway, and are falling back on the same tired arguments and exceptions to rules that have been used since the get go.

When trying to engage in a discourse about systemic racism, LGBTQphobia, misogyny and the like, the absolute last thing people want to hear about is the hurt feelings of straight white cismales who have held the floor since forever.

Seth wrote:
Modern feminism teaches that women need to stop being nice and stop apologizing ostensibly because men are rude and do not apologize.

Do you disagree with the first part? Do you think women need to start being nice and start apologizing?

The second part is, as you admit by using the word "ostensibly,", your conjecture and not actually reality based. Women "need to" stop being nice and stop apologizing because they've spent the last thousand years being viewed as property whose voice has no place in public discourse. Ostensibly.

(I don't think feminism tells any woman what they "need to" do.) "Feminism" is like "religion." it's pretty hard to define all supernatural beliefs worldwide with one snarky soundbyte.

Am I to have my every word choice mocked? Arguing with feminists is always such a treat . . .

Yes I think women should continue apologizing in situations where its polite to do so and that if men are not apologizing in those situations then they should start. We should all be nice. An individual woman is not the sum total of human history, nor is a man the sum total of history's oppression of women. An individual woman is responsible for her individual actions so if she's rude, I'm going to react the way I do to any rude person (in my case, being around her as little as possible. )

nel e nel wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

But in my experience the women who act like other gamers get along fine.

This is part of the problem. What is 'gamer'? Is there some sort of membership card or checklist of acceptable behaviors? If there is, I sure didn't see it.

Yes because subcultures keep official lists of written rules ratified by the official subculture council and all that . . .

I'd explain what I meant but its pointless.

nel e nel wrote:

And since we have now derailed into the realm of "well, MY friends aren't like that so it must be made up", I'm going to go ahead and bow out.

You're the one who thinks I should sit in the back because of a circumstance of my birth I have no control over. I wasn't interested in a conversation with you to begin with apart from this post if thats your attitude. I am not going to sit quietly with my head down because of a bunch of BS that happened mostly in history and that I was not a part of.

nel e nel wrote:

I certainly commend everyone for being engaged in respectful discourse, but it's clear you're not really interested in trying to meet halfway, and are falling back on the same tired arguments and exceptions to rules that have been used since the get go.

I find your arguments as samey and tired as you find mine. Do you really think I haven't heard this stuff before? Many variations on it too. Its hard to keep straight.

nel e nel wrote:

When trying to engage in a discourse about systemic racism, LGBTQphobia, misogyny and the like, the absolute last thing people want to hear about is the hurt feelings of straight white cismales who have held the floor since forever.

Oh I know. And that's really tiresome. Especially when you're airing those grievances on forum where people gather to discuss video games. An escapist leisure hobby. If progressives are going to spread this mess all over gaming, they shouldn't be shocked when they get some complaining back.

We're all individuals. I have no power. I'm never in a position to stop anyone but now I'm learning even that isn't enough. I have to be an active crusader for transgender people to meet the bare minimum standards of non scumbag human being. Or was it women I need to crusade for. Or racial minorities. Or the disabled. Or the elderly. Or the poor. Or Muslims. Do I need to crusade for all these groups to not be a scumbag or just yours whichever yours is? This all really motivates me to try.

With the rabid anti-male anti-white rhetoric growing, I know I'm going to have to make sure I can end my life. I was going to at some point.

nel e nel wrote:
cheeze_pavilion wrote:
nel e nel wrote:

It doesn't cost me anything to sit back and let other folks have a chance to address their grievances, especially since culture and society has been catered to the default straight white male for so long.

It costs a feeling of community with those folks. At least for some of us. Some of us just can't emotionally connect to movements that involve this much shaming and disregard for Fee Fees. We can intellectually understand why it's necessary, but it means what was once a Labor of Love is now just Shovelling sh*t: just because something is literally a matter of life-and-death doesn't mean it isn't distasteful.

Is WideAndNerdy one of those people? I don't know. Maybe he's a lot like the people he's arguing with here, and when he sees the light, he'll disavow all this and fit in well with the people he's disagreeing with right now. That's been my experience.

Except that the feeling of 'community' your talking about has been exposed to have been exclusive, not inclusive. That sense of 'community' that many folks are fighting for, is the problem to begin with:

a boys club that more or less is the equivalent of "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" and is why these recent 'movements' have come up in the video gaming community in the first place. It's desperate grabs at a false narrative that games are a straight white male country club, when it in fact is not, and has never been.

Again, I really could care less about the shame and hurt fee fees of people who enjoyed the status quo for so long now, with little to no regard as to how it affected large parts of the community.

My bad, I should have been more clear. The feeling of 'community' I'm talking about isn't the video gaming community. I'm talking about the social justice communities themselves.

In a way, I'm glad you couldn't care less. You will be both happier and more effective than me. But I can't care less. The reason to be optimistic is that I think there are a lot more people like you than there are people like me.

We're all individuals. I have no power.

If that's what you think, then that is what is true. Change your thinking and you'll find your own power and voice.

I disagree with about everything you've said here but I commend you for trying. There's power in that effort.

Reaper81 wrote:
We're all individuals. I have no power.

If that's what you think, then that is what is true. Change your thinking and you'll find your own power and voice.

I disagree with about everything you've said here but I commend you for trying. There's power in that effort.

I have no interest in power and I am utterly disgusted by those who do. I have shed what little power I attained in the past because the practice of controlling others is filthy.

I want to live my life and I want others to be free to live theirs without interference. If I ever soil myself with power again, it will be in pursuit of that goal.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

I am not going to sit quietly with my head down because of a bunch of BS that happened mostly in history and that I was not a part of.

To paraphrase Yoda, "This is why you fail to understand". No one is saying you're responsible. They're asking you to keep the following in mind. If your ancestors had been enslaved for generations your life would likely be different today, ALSO through no fault of your. If you were born female your life would be different today. Also through no fault of your own. I'm extremely thankful to the patient and highly intelligent members of this community who have literally taken years of time on these forums to explain the concept of privilege.

It makes me a better person and, I hope, a more constructive member of society and poster in these forums to remember that I am far less likely to go to jail because I'm white. To remember that I'm infinitely less likely to be sexual harassed as a male. This is useful information so I can help lift up people from a non privileged status. The whole thing where, "I only shine if you shine". We should be trying to make the world a better, more inclusive place and starting with understanding how your race, gender, orientation play into society at large, regardless of whether it's your "fault", is important.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

We're all individuals. I have no power. I'm never in a position to stop anyone but now I'm learning even that isn't enough. I have to be an active crusader for transgender people to meet the bare minimum standards of non scumbag human being. Or was it women I need to crusade for. Or racial minorities. Or the disabled. Or the elderly. Or the poor. Or Muslims. Do I need to crusade for all these groups to not be a scumbag or just yours whichever yours is? This all really motivates me to try.

With the rabid anti-male anti-white rhetoric growing, I know I'm going to have to make sure I can end my life. I was going to at some point.

The fact that you think this is why you fail. Give other people a chance to speak. Listen to them. It sounds like you're the "default" race, gender in Western civilization. Society will make sure your needs are met unless you fall into a subgroup (gay, mentally ill) that also has a history of being mistreated. Even then your other privileges will cover for you in some ways. Understanding this in all its complexity is hard and it hurts to be told you're "lucky" when you don't feel lucky, but just try it on for size. Try listening.

I grew up an awkward kid. Mega poor. I had to scratch and claw to get to where I am. But I'm also a white, straight male and understand that by virtue of that I had certain privileges. As such it won't hurt for me to hand the microphone to someone else and listen to them with earnestness and enthusiasm. I learn something daily when I remember this. It costs nothing and it's so valuable.

DSGamer wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

I am not going to sit quietly with my head down because of a bunch of BS that happened mostly in history and that I was not a part of.

To paraphrase Yoda, "This is why you fail to understand". No one is saying you're responsible.

So I guess you'd disown the women who put up posters at Oberlin individually naming every member of the Young Republican's club a rape apologist? Each name being given its own poster?

If I'd gone to Oberlin, my name would have ended up on one of those posters. I was a Republican in my college days (libertarian now). So I think at least some people would charge me directly with the crimes of my gender and my race.

See I do get how privilege works. Maybe not as fully as you like (there's only so much writhing in shame I can stomach at any one time and as nel demonstrated, they could care less about making it any less painful for us because we are the very symbol of the monster to them) but I've encountered the idea enough times to have the gist.

But I am not going to let people drown me out because of it. I'm not going to hand the megaphone to the guy who wants to aim it at my ear and inflict his pain on me. I've had girls disgusted at the sight of me without a shirt. I've been shamed for being awkward. I've been penalized for not following arbitrary rules. I've been mocked for being lacking in a great many ways. I've been sent the message again and again that I'm unworthy from one person or another. I've been condemned because a man's couch couldn't bear my weight. I endure indignities every time I go to a theater and try to squeeze into a seat made for normal decent people. I've shuffled awkwardly about in clothing sized for me by not truly designed with me in mind. I've had strangers think its ok to pat my belly because its so visible.

So I'm sure people have endured far worse than me but I've endured enough. I don't leave my house anymore than I have to anymore (my stories above are mostly from the past). I leave people alone and if the world will not leave me alone, I'll end it. Anybody can be disgusting to anybody else for any reason.

And that, is why you fail. You're too concerned with specific categories in ignorance of the reality of basic human ugliness. Once you've succeeded in making it politically incorrect to be racist or sexist, people will find something else, and will seek a justification that is more palatable. We already see it with fat shaming. People even claim that fat shaming is for your own good (when really its just an excuse to dump the ugliness on an acceptable target). See also daytime talkshows.

WideAndNerdy wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

I am not going to sit quietly with my head down because of a bunch of BS that happened mostly in history and that I was not a part of.

To paraphrase Yoda, "This is why you fail to understand". No one is saying you're responsible.

So I guess you'd disown the women who put up posters at Oberlin individually naming every member of the Young Republican's club a rape apologist? Each name being given its own poster?

If I'd gone to Oberlin, my name would have ended up on one of those posters. I was a Republican in my college days (libertarian now). So I think at least some people would charge me directly with the crimes of my gender and my race.

Do you think dsgamer meant her? If he's not speaking according to your point of view, perhaps he has one of his own to take into account. It might be worth trying to understand the message within its context instead of applying your own.

LouZiffer wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

I am not going to sit quietly with my head down because of a bunch of BS that happened mostly in history and that I was not a part of.

To paraphrase Yoda, "This is why you fail to understand". No one is saying you're responsible.

So I guess you'd disown the women who put up posters at Oberlin individually naming every member of the Young Republican's club a rape apologist? Each name being given its own poster?

If I'd gone to Oberlin, my name would have ended up on one of those posters. I was a Republican in my college days (libertarian now). So I think at least some people would charge me directly with the crimes of my gender and my race.

Do you think dsgamer meant her? If he's not speaking according to your point of view, perhaps he has one of his own to take into account. It might be worth trying to understand the message within its context instead of applying your own.

Will you afford the same consideration to individual members of GamerGate? People here seem inclined to write off the entirety of the movement on the basis of the ugliness of some. Why is it unacceptable when I do it?

That movement, just like the Republican party, has been co-opted by an undesirable element. What you're choosing to associate with and what you think it should mean have become two separate things.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

So I guess you'd disown the women who put up posters at Oberlin individually naming every member of the Young Republican's club a rape apologist? Each name being given its own poster?

So I guess you'd disown the Oberlin College Young Republicans and Libertarians who kicked off the protests by paying $5,000 to have a controversial speaker come to campus, one who specifically denied that rapes happen as frequently as the statistics say, during the midst of Sexual Assault Awareness Month?

Never mind that they didn't know who the speaker was until one of their donors told them they should bring her on campus.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

If I'd gone to Oberlin, my name would have ended up on one of those posters. I was a Republican in my college days (libertarian now). So I think at least some people would charge me directly with the crimes of my gender and my race.

The Young Republicans were targeted because of their actions not because they were cis white males.

And you would have only been targeted if you had decided to go along with your conservative buddies and bring a controversial speaker on campus for the sole purpose of pissing off everyone else.

Are there examples of reasonable gators? I've seen countless examples of unreasonable ones (in the three threads devoted to it on this forum), yet not a single iota of evidence that any part of GG is reasonable.

This isn't me being snarky. This is my experience.

WideAndNerdy wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

I am not going to sit quietly with my head down because of a bunch of BS that happened mostly in history and that I was not a part of.

To paraphrase Yoda, "This is why you fail to understand". No one is saying you're responsible.

So I guess you'd disown the women who put up posters at Oberlin individually naming every member of the Young Republican's club a rape apologist? Each name being given its own poster?

If I'd gone to Oberlin, my name would have ended up on one of those posters. I was a Republican in my college days (libertarian now). So I think at least some people would charge me directly with the crimes of my gender and my race.

I'm not even sure what "disown" means, practically speaking. And I don't know what happened in that case. I feel like part of changing how you react to this stuff is, once again, to listen. It's okay to not take action. It doesn't sound like there's any action that needs to take place. Just listen and discuss if it comes up and move on with my life, I guess?

I was never a member of a club like Young Republican, in part because I feel like facts and personal growth trump adherence to an ideology. However, I was, in the 90s, a college football player. And our dorms were protested as we were potential rapists. Not supporters of rape culture, but actual potential rapists. It hurt, but even at 18 I didn't fight back. I knew I wasn't a potential rapist. Or assumed I wasn't. It made me extra vigilant about consent, which turns out to be healthy.

OG_slinger wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

So I guess you'd disown the women who put up posters at Oberlin individually naming every member of the Young Republican's club a rape apologist? Each name being given its own poster?

So I guess you'd disown the Oberlin College Young Republicans and Libertarians who kicked off the protests by paying $5,000 to have a controversial speaker come to campus, one who specifically denied that rapes happen as frequently as the statistics say, during the midst of Sexual Assault Awareness Month?

Never mind that they didn't know who the speaker was until one of their donors told them they should bring her on campus.

No I wouldn't disown them. So I guess you'd better go ahead and try to destroy my life since that is an acceptable and proportional response in the instance of having a difference of view.

CHS was saying that the statistics didn't match up between two sets of numbers being touted. She also took issue with some of the surveys behind the 1 in 4 statistic and what constitutes "rape" (such as a man and a woman having sex when both were drunk, that counts as a man raping a woman) And she did say that even 1 in 40 is a problem.

But if you're on board with demonizing them and causing damage and disruption to bar them from even speaking, then thank you for making that clear. We have nothing more to discuss.

OG_slinger wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

If I'd gone to Oberlin, my name would have ended up on one of those posters. I was a Republican in my college days (libertarian now). So I think at least some people would charge me directly with the crimes of my gender and my race.

The Young Republicans were targeted because of their actions not because they were cis white males.

And you would have only been targeted if you had decided to go along with your conservative buddies and bring a controversial speaker on campus for the sole purpose of pissing off everyone else.

They wrote up the entire roster. It wouldn't matter if I did object to the actions of the larger body, I'd have my own poster with my own name on it because my name would have been on the roster for the club. Though I wouldn't have objected to the act of daring to allow this woman on campus to speak. So hate me if that is what you deem a reasonable and measured response.

Seth wrote:

Are there examples of reasonable gators? I've seen countless examples of unreasonable ones (in the three threads devoted to it on this forum), yet not a single iota of evidence that any part of GG is reasonable.

This isn't me being snarky. This is my experience.

I wouldn't say there are a lot of examples of completely reasonable GGers. I will say there are plenty who are really just in it for GG's stated purpose of ethics in games journalism. Any time I've checked in on r/KotakuInaction that's what I've seen. And I'm more interested in addressing that wing of GG because the other wing is trolls and trolls only thrive on attention.

But Erik Kain of Forbes is right, they're too focused on individuals and dirty tactics* and too unfocused on the system as a whole, even throwing aside the haters and misogynists. This is something Liana K is trying to explain to them.

*Primitive Alinsky style I'd say. Progressives invented and have perfected this kind of dirty fighting after all. Complete with moral justifications for doing so. Say hi to your children. This is what happens when those same tactics fall into the hands of a group you don't like. And they're not even halfway through learning that playbook yet.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

But I am not going to let people drown me out because of it. I'm not going to hand the megaphone to the guy who wants to aim it at my ear and inflict his pain on me. I've had girls disgusted at the sight of me without a shirt. I've been shamed for being awkward. I've been penalized for not following arbitrary rules. I've been mocked for being lacking in a great many ways. I've been sent the message again and again that I'm unworthy from one person or another.

I am sorry you have been hurt.

You understand that the folks in this thread are not the people who have hurt you though, right?

I ask because you seem to keep reacting to things which nobody here is saying.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

I also don't think that a movement that characterizes the source of all our problems as "patriarchy" (male) and the solution to all our problems as "feminism" (female) is ever going to have my best interest anywhere in mind. You talk about coding and social programming and subtle effects when its baked into so much of the terminology feminists use. Surely it must affect their thinking as much as all those less than ideal male heroes in video games supposedly affect men.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

A man can't have an opinion because he is not a woman.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

With the rabid anti-male anti-white rhetoric growing

WideAndNerdy wrote:

So I guess you'd better go ahead and try to destroy my life since that is an acceptable and proportional response in the instance of having a difference of view.

In terms of actual conversation folks are trying to have in this thread, I thought Wembley's post on the first page was an interesting question that deserved a response.

Seth wrote:

Are there examples of reasonable gators? I've seen countless examples of unreasonable ones (in the three threads devoted to it on this forum), yet not a single iota of evidence that any part of GG is reasonable.

This isn't me being snarky. This is my experience.

There are some, but you have to look hard.

I know a couple that really disown and disclaim the harassment, anti-feminism, anti -"SJW"'ness, and anti-progressivism that is rampant in places like KiA and twitter. They truly think that there is problems in gaming journalism in the press being too close to devs (indies most of the time) and too beholden to the producers/devs (AAAs) the rest of the time.

However, they are few and far in between.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

And there's no way I'm going near the rape culture thread. Even I have too much of a life to want to give it up arguing there for however many years.

But by all means if you guys want to cross post there and start beating up on my posts there without telling me as you've already done once, I certainly cannot stop you.

I just went to the Rape Culture thread and don't see where anybody has done this. I also looked at the Koolaid Point and Feminism thread.

Am I missing something?

Dimmerswitch wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

But I am not going to let people drown me out because of it. I'm not going to hand the megaphone to the guy who wants to aim it at my ear and inflict his pain on me. I've had girls disgusted at the sight of me without a shirt. I've been shamed for being awkward. I've been penalized for not following arbitrary rules. I've been mocked for being lacking in a great many ways. I've been sent the message again and again that I'm unworthy from one person or another.

I am sorry you have been hurt.

You understand that the folks in this thread are not the people who have hurt you though, right?

I ask because you seem to keep reacting to things which nobody here is saying.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

I also don't think that a movement that characterizes the source of all our problems as "patriarchy" (male) and the solution to all our problems as "feminism" (female) is ever going to have my best interest anywhere in mind. You talk about coding and social programming and subtle effects when its baked into so much of the terminology feminists use. Surely it must affect their thinking as much as all those less than ideal male heroes in video games supposedly affect men.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

A man can't have an opinion because he is not a woman.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

With the rabid anti-male anti-white rhetoric growing

WideAndNerdy wrote:

So I guess you'd better go ahead and try to destroy my life since that is an acceptable and proportional response in the instance of having a difference of view.

In terms of actual conversation folks are trying to have in this thread, I thought Wembley's post on the first page was an interesting question that deserved a response.

It did get a response. Anita's work shows multiple examples. There was also that attorney. And the APA

Dimmerswitch wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

And there's no way I'm going near the rape culture thread. Even I have too much of a life to want to give it up arguing there for however many years.

But by all means if you guys want to cross post there and start beating up on my posts there without telling me as you've already done once, I certainly cannot stop you.

I just went to the Rape Culture thread and don't see where anybody has done this. I also looked at the Koolaid Point and Feminism thread.

Am I missing something?

The totally totalbistcuit thread was started that way.

WideAndNerdy wrote:

But I am not going to let people drown me out because of it. I'm not going to hand the megaphone to the guy who wants to aim it at my ear and inflict his pain on me. I've had girls disgusted at the sight of me without a shirt. I've been shamed for being awkward. I've been penalized for not following arbitrary rules. I've been mocked for being lacking in a great many ways. I've been sent the message again and again that I'm unworthy from one person or another. I've been condemned because a man's couch couldn't bear my weight. I endure indignities every time I go to a theater and try to squeeze into a seat made for normal decent people. I've shuffled awkwardly about in clothing sized for me by not truly designed with me in mind. I've had strangers think its ok to pat my belly because its so visible.

.....

And that, is why you fail. You're too concerned with specific categories in ignorance of the reality of basic human ugliness. Once you've succeeded in making it politically incorrect to be racist or sexist, people will find something else, and will seek a justification that is more palatable. We already see it with fat shaming. People even claim that fat shaming is for your own good (when really its just an excuse to dump the ugliness on an acceptable target). See also daytime talkshows.

Nice try. I know how that feels. I'm over 350lbs. College football players don't always do so well after college when they keep eating a lineman diet. I also had to work 60+ hours a week my first few years out of college. Survived a horrendous car crash as well as a host of medical issues resulting from taking medicine for anxiety. So you're not talking to someone without issues. I know what all of the above feels like and still I don't lash out at the world because they don't understand I'm the way I am partly for reasons beyond my control. And I definitely don't lash out at women because I might have confidence issues taking my shirt off in public.

I'm typing this from Greece, on vacation with my lovely wife. I spent most of they day in the ocean (wearing a swimming shirt because I am sensitive to ridicule), but I have a good life. Partly because I don't let my weight define me, even if it's a real issue.

If you would like to talk about weight and body image as a male I'd be happy to have that discussion. But don't assume so much. If you listen you might be surprised at the complexity of the human who's on the receiving end of your posts.

Dimmerswitch wrote:

I just went to the Rape Culture thread and don't see where anybody has done this. I also looked at the Koolaid Point and Feminism thread.

Am I missing something?

Only place I've seen posts by WideAndNerdy discussed are the CC thread, the TotalBiscuit thread, and this thread, all of which pretty directly chain into each other.

mudbunny wrote:

I know a couple that really disown and disclaim the harassment, anti-feminism, anti -"SJW"'ness, and anti-progressivism that is rampant in places like KiA and twitter. They truly think that there is problems in gaming journalism in the press being too close to devs (indies most of the time) and too beholden to the producers/devs (AAAs) the rest of the time.

See, I'd be willing to have this discussion, if any one was willing to have it. I'd also still disagree with them, because the evidence I've seen for problems in game journalism that that it's about on par with other forms of enthusiast press and the worst elements of it are exactly the kinds of things directly promoted (begged for, even) by GamerGate.

EDIT:

WideAndNerdy wrote:

It did get a response. Anita's work shows multiple examples. There was also that attorney. And the APA

Wait, you mean Jack Thompson? Most recently seen as the darling of GamerGate?

WideAndNerdy wrote:
Dimmerswitch wrote:
WideAndNerdy wrote:

And there's no way I'm going near the rape culture thread. Even I have too much of a life to want to give it up arguing there for however many years.

But by all means if you guys want to cross post there and start beating up on my posts there without telling me as you've already done once, I certainly cannot stop you.

I just went to the Rape Culture thread and don't see where anybody has done this. I also looked at the Koolaid Point and Feminism thread.

Am I missing something?

The totally totalbistcuit thread was started that way.

You mean the one that was started at Certis' request to stop the derail in the conference call thread, and was explicitly linked from the conference call thread so that everyone could continue the conversation in the new thread?

[edit: on my phone and autocorrect does not like the word "derail"]