Conference Call

GWJ Conference Call Episode 457

Rocket League, WWE 2K15, Fallout Shelter (The End), Terra Nova, Couch Coop Games, Your Emails and More!

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This week Cory, Sean and Julian get back to normal and talk about couch coop games!

To contact us, email [email protected]! Send us your thoughts on the show, pressing issues you want to talk about or whatever else is on your mind.

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Show credits

Music credits: 

Late Night Thoughts - Echoside - http://echosidetracks.bandcamp.com/ - 34:48

No Regard - Echoside - http://echosidetracks.bandcamp.com/ - 51:51

Comments

Just downloading the show now, but before I hit play let me just say this: Rocket League is incredible!

It devoured my Saturday night/Sunday morning and is absolutely the most fun I've had in an online game for many years. Easy to learn mechanics, but super difficult to master. Runs beautifully too and I think online matchmaking has been stable for the most part (although increasing popularity has put servers under strain in the last 24 hours or so). You should absolutely take a look on PS4 or PC.

So I'm still listening to the GWJCC, not finished yet, but I really want to thank Julian for raising the issues I've also been concerned about regarding Fallout Shelter. It's not just the women being completely apathetic as they walk out immediately pregnant and visibly miserable. It's not just that they fail their arms about useless as they run out of a room panicked when radroaches attack. I can understand that they have a policy of having children be "invincible" as we've seen in Fallout and Elder Scrolls games, and by extension unborn fetuses. (still, they didn't need to have the women look so stupid when fleeing)
It's also that the really good gear can be gender specific. I've run across multiple instances of gear, such as the sports fan outfit, the professor outfit and the horror fan outfit that could only be equipped by men. And that, above all, really rankles. Because we have enough issues with getting women into STEM fields without dealing with this kind of thing in our games.

Edit: The main topic was very much a propos for me since I just spent a good chunk of yesterday with my BFF playing games in "couch co-op" mode. He brought his own XBox One controller, we hooked it up, and played some games. The plan was initially to play The Cave, but it quickly became very chaotic. I think it's best played either alone, or with three players, one per character. With two players, we just kept switching to the same character and bumping the other off them, and it got messy. Shame, because I loved that game, I remember immediately jumping into a second playthrough when I played it a few years back. So we jumped over to Expendabros, which was okay and fun enough, a co-operative platformer (except you can die if your buddy causes an explosion and you're right behind him ). That was about wrapped up in 90 minutes, I think. And interestingly enough, we switched over to some Portal 2 after that, even though we'd already done the co-op courses together a few years ago. Guess portals age well and are always fun. I'd forgotten about the "edgeless companion cube."

Couch Coop Games

talk about couch coop games

"couch coop" mode

IMAGE(http://41.media.tumblr.com/169f8b2ed29b605239318bc5153faa4f/tumblr_nc2sx4Vm9o1rjgdu6o3_500.jpg)

Spoiler:

Every time I see someone type "coop" as short for co-operative, that's how I hear it in my brain.

Absolutely, MeatMan, you're in the right on that one. I shall endeavor not to relapse.

00:01:48 Rocket League
00:10:24 WWE 2K15
00:17:16 The Golf Club
00:19:08 Fallout Shelter
00:29:25 Terra Nova
00:35:14 Couch Co-op
00:52:25 Emails

I don't know about the actual business stuff, but a buddy of mine made a story in a prior WWE game involving Albert Wesker making a deal with Vince McMahon to have Umbrella engineer a super wrestler and Chris Redfield had to try and stop it. At one point Wesker ambushed Redfield backstage with a friggin' car before starting an impromptu match in the parking garage.

It was pretty awesome.

Most of my favorite couch co-op games are also memorable due to the bonds and memories built as a result. Contra as something my brother and I played as children. Halo for returning us to that time after we grew apart when he left for College. But Castle Crashers had something special. My roommates and friends and I lobed playing it, but at one point I was playing it with friends while my roommate hosted a party. So many folks left the party and just watched us play. We offered people a chance to try it, but they just loved the animation, characters, and sense of humor. It's something special when gamer and non-gamer alike can enjoy watching someone play.

The Mario games it depends on everyone's mentality. If everyone just wants to mess around, or if everyone wants to make progress, find secrets, etc, then it's great. If the groups intermingle, tempers will rise.

And sometimes, your co-op partner thinks it's fine, they were awesome at Mario64 back in the day. Guess what chump? Mario 3D World is not Mario64. Now would you please stop jumping, causing the colored panels to swap and dropping me to yet another death because you won't let me explain how all the new sh*t works?

Calming? Golf?!

Eleima wrote:

So I'm still listening to the GWJCC, not finished yet, but I really want to thank Julian for raising the issues I've also been concerned about regarding Fallout Shelter.

Me, too!

I haven't played Fallout Shelter, but I'm getting the impression that it takes something the series satirized and plays it straight. The Vaults are dystopias that claim to be utopias, critiquing the cultural narratives of the '50s and the many ways in which post-WWII America justified various kinds of oppression.

Maybe it'd have worked better if you got to choose which horrific social "experiment" your Vault was supposed to be about, rather than everybody getting the same patriarchal model.

Regarding the Fallout Shelter stuff, I actually found it frustrating for a different reason. I thought it mirrored a little too well how society currently treats motherhood.

My wife is a stay-at-home mom, and is homeschooling our kids, and every time she comes up in conversation it's always "so, does your wife work or just stay at home with the kids."

To which I reply with a silent "Eff you."

She gets that attitude a lot too. Doctors, hairdressers, receptionists, it's always "oh, do you work?" As if she's not busting her butt raising two special needs kids.

Shelter kind of takes that attitude about motherhood and makes it a game mechanic. It's very much "oh, sure, kids are necessary and all, but a woman who is being a mother (represented as being pregnant in the game) is basically useless to society until she drops the kid and gets back to work in the power plant."

Again, silent "Eff you."

Then I realized I was playing a free iOS game and that nobody was thinking that hard about it when they made it (they certainly didn't think hard enough about it to make it a stable freaking experience!) and why should I think so hard about it than the developers didn't?

Just listened today while working. I had a huge nostalgia cheer on the email and discussion about the first video game completed. My first (remembered) was Ultima IV on my Commodore 128. Mine worked though. First arcade game was X-Men with sister and two of my brothers. Collectively, we probably broke $100.

My first video victory was actually Superman on the Atari 2600.

Then ET.

Then Hudson Hawk for the NES.

I come by my reputation honest.

Hm. I think the first game I saw beaten was Mario 2. The first game I beat would be either Mario 1 or 2. Pretty sure on that. Like... 85%.

Console I remember for sure because it made a huge impact. It was Megaman 2 in 1990. I never had consoles until I got old enough to work and buy one with my own money.

I cannot fathom "You're not firing weapons" in Rocket League as a good thing. When has not shooting missiles from a car ever been a positive (he asked rhetorically)?

Still, I do wonder if it might scratch an itch in Twisted Metal's neighborhood.

Great podcast.
My fave couch co-op have always been Halo splitscreen. Playing that, one on the turret of the Warthog, the other driving.... heaven !
The first game I ever completed was Harrier Attack on Amstrad 464. A friend and I also completed Michael Jackson's Moonwalker on the arcade. I also completed Get Dexter on the Amstrad which was my all time no.1 achievement for years.

I want to say my first "beaten" game was Duck Tales on the NES, followed closely by Mario Brothers and Legend of Zelda.

I do recall having one stand-up arcade game that I played all the way through - Punisher (as Nick Fury). I was at a birthday party at an arcade, and had $20 in tokens in my pocket, and had no problem pushing quarter after quarter into that machine until I got to the end.

My best guess for the first game I beat/finished would be Adventure for the Atari 2600.

IMAGE(https://what.thedailywtf.com/uploads/default/19185/775690d84ef58ce4.png)

Ha ha! That's three weeks in a row that there's been pro wrestling discussion. My work here is done. Well, until GenCon: WWE Superstar Showdown

On the topic of couch co-op and pro wrestling, however, I think one large reason I haven't enjoyed any of the games since N64 is because I haven't had anyone to play them with. Why spend an entire day in the character creator if there's no one to show off to? Online play is an option but it's not the same. I prefer multiplayer in person, whether it's board or video games. I had way more fun playing Pyroman in Hearthstone on the same couch than if we played each other online.

McChuck wrote:

Ha ha! That's three weeks in a row that there's been pro wrestling discussion. My work here is done. Well, until GenCon: WWE Superstar Showdown

On the topic of couch co-op and pro wrestling, however, I think one large reason I haven't enjoyed any of the games since N64 is because I haven't had anyone to play them with. Why spend an entire day in the character creator if there's no one to show off to? Online play is an option but it's not the same. I prefer multiplayer in person, whether it's board or video games. I had way more fun playing Pyroman in Hearthstone on the same couch than if we played each other online.

Holy crap that board game.

Best Fallout Shelter moment: My designated breeder Larry escorts a lady friend into the back room to do what he does best as a fire breaks out in the room next door. Pandemonium breaks out sending a panic stricken child into to the next room and then into the back room where I can only imagine he got an eye full. It's small unintentional moments like these that have made this game so enjoyable.

Interesting points around Fallout Shelter. I struggled to get a game going because I kept doing too much, then on my last try I managed to get a sustainable shelter going. I played this shelter for two weeks. It took a couple of days for it to sink in how problematic the game's base mechanics are, but by then I wanted to see how it would play out.

I understand not wanting to kill pregnant women, but the whole 'panic' aspect was pretty troubling. My level 26 Dweller who has had several 11-12 hour trips into the Wasteland suddenly becomes a hysterical mess because of a stupid radroach? Ugh!

Then the other day, with all rooms available and in use and 153 dwellers, I got the second 7 day lunchbox, opened it to find a pile of nothing, closed the game down and deleted it.

doubtingthomas396 wrote:

Shelter kind of takes that attitude about motherhood and makes it a game mechanic. It's very much "oh, sure, kids are necessary and all, but a woman who is being a mother (represented as being pregnant in the game) is basically useless to society until she drops the kid and gets back to work in the power plant."

At the risk of pulling a "well, actually..." pregnant women can still work, but they are useless in an event. Overall you make a good point though.

doubtingthomas396 wrote:

Then I realized I was playing a free iOS game and that nobody was thinking that hard about it when they made it (they certainly didn't think hard enough about it to make it a stable freaking experience!) and why should I think so hard about it than the developers didn't?

I don't know if you were being ironic or not, but in my book, they should care and they should think about it. They don't think about it too hard in games, usually because they don't think about it too hard in real life. And that kind of line of thinking is going to tick off a substantial portion of their player base, as you pointed out. (and I'm in full agreement with you: why do people think a woman suddenly turns off her brain because she's pregnant?... *sigh* )

Also, I stand corrected. There is a female equivalent to the Professor's Outfit which gives +4 in Intelligence. It's called the Librarian's Outfit.

Regarding pregnant women in Fallout Shelter…for a game series partially built on 50s stereotypes, I’m not sure exactly what you were expecting. But let’s look at this rationally:

A) You can put women right back to work after getting pregnant - not a very "patriarchal" notion.

B) “Protect the baby at all costs” is a deep-seated biological imperative of women. The easiest way to do so (particularly when surrounded by other armed individuals) is to get the hell out of Dodge. That is a realistic response.

C) Other characters will run away hysterically when an event happens - it’s not limited to pregnant women.

RicoSuaveGuapo wrote:

But let’s look at this rationally:

No reason a pregnant woman can't fight it out a bit and then run. They could have designed it a different way, but they didn't. Same with the weird, gender-specific outfits. If rationality was a the reason not to do something half the game would be out the window.

Oh man, lovely shout out to Terra Nova. It's much less a Mechwarrior clone and much more an exo-suit-based action game. More toward the Heavy Gear side of things, but even more nimble. AND SO GOOD. I just played through maybe six missions and they are so fun. Really requires tactics and forethought. Seriously, if y'all have an interest in anything mecha related, check it out.

Certis wrote:
RicoSuaveGuapo wrote:

But let’s look at this rationally:

No reason a pregnant woman can't fight it out a bit and then run. They could have designed it a different way, but they didn't. Same with the weird, gender-specific outfits. If rationality was a the reason not to do something half the game would be out the window.

Or even just make a dignified withdrawal. Running around all over the base in a panic is ridiculous.

RicoSuaveGuapo wrote:

B) “Protect the baby at all costs” is a deep-seated biological imperative of women. The easiest way to do so (particularly when surrounded by other armed individuals) is to get the hell out of Dodge. That is a realistic response.

Thanks a bunch, but I've already done it twice, so I kinda know what it's like, and I don't buy it. That "deep-seated biological imperative"? Um nope. That's pretty much anyone's response, it's the fight or flight response, and most of the time when you aren't equipped to deal with a situation (and most people aren't), they flee. Pregnancy or no.
And as Certis pointed out, and as I had explained, it's not so much the mechanic (like I said, Bethesda has a long history of making children "immortal"), it's the manner in which it's done. You didn't have to have them running around looking so ridiculous.

Eleima wrote:

Also, I stand corrected. There is a female equivalent to the Professor's Outfit which gives +4 in Intelligence. It's called the Librarian's Outfit.

... .... Really? I tried not to be offended by the game primarily because I lost interest in it after about five minutes but that is like they are just rubbing it in. I guess I better put my future plans in check. I will never be a professor; have to settle as a librarian and sit around pregnant. Sigh.

I play couch two player coop or not games with my son, my favorites are Castle Crashers (but I was really disappointed with Battleblock Theater) and Broforce. I like too Towerfall Ascension, I heard about it here one or two rabbitcon's ago and it's great, and up to four players (if you have enough gamepads). Trine 1 and 2 are very good, and so pretty to look at

Some others that are ok, the new Gauntlet, Hammerwatch, Monaco and Nidhogg

kabutor wrote:

I play couch two player coop or not games with my son, my favorites are Castle Crashers (but I was really disappointed with Battleblock Theater) and Broforce.

I was super disappointed with Battleblock. The two player mode is fine, but if I want to play with four (which I did quite often when I bought the game) it's just arena mode. Pretty much the whole selling point of Castle Crashers was that I could play WITH my friends instead of AGAINST them. I was kind of led to believe that Battleblock would have more of the same, so I was inevitably let down by it.