True Detective Catch-All (Education, Semantics, and SPOILERS)

Yeah, I just figured the SUV had been following him the whole way. Like I said, it makes the most sense that they staked out the school, it just would have been a way cooler ending if doing the 'dumb' thing actually made things turn out better.

edit: I guess it was to parallel Vaughn's character's fate, where if he'd just walked away emotionally and literally instead of burning the clubs down, the gang that killed him wouldn't have been looking for him? Did I miss something about how they found Vaughn, or just, 'reasons?' The irony being those clubs weren't his anymore anyway, and those gangsters would have had to renegotiate with the Russians even if they were still standing?

Yeah all I can figure is the Mexicans followed him after he met up with the other guys to get his passport? Not much way out for Frank. He had to get the diamonds and had to get his passport to get out of the country. Maybe burning down the clubs was a big FU, but still, if those guys were reasonable businessmen, they would have taken his million to wait a few weeks to rebuild the club (they didn't know the new owners were dead). Clearly they were not reasonable though, the way they killed that female witness a couple weeks ago.

Oh gods people, can we please stop abusing the word trope? Tropes are not bad, at least not intrinsically. Saying something is trope-y is kind of meaningless, it's like saying a house is super bricky. I get what you all mean, but I've noticed a lot of people are doing this lately and I feel like it's a bad habit to get into.

Stele wrote:

Yeah all I can figure is the Mexicans followed him after he met up with the other guys to get his passport? Not much way out for Frank. He had to get the diamonds and had to get his passport to get out of the country. Maybe burning down the clubs was a big FU, but still, if those guys were reasonable businessmen, they would have taken his million to wait a few weeks to rebuild the club (they didn't know the new owners were dead). Clearly they were not reasonable though, the way they killed that female witness a couple weeks ago.

That's what makes me scratch my head so much. Okay, so there's a way to interpret what we saw as a series of events behind why Ray got caught because he went back to the school and that's where they put the tracker on him, but he notices it because something is punctured and leaking, and so he leads them away to give everyone else the best chance to get away.

The Mexicans were able to find Frank and wedge him in at a chokepoint because...it makes for a better ending?

I still liked it. I just like it better when Ray getting caught is as much an "okay sure I'll buy it" as Frank.

Frank getting caught doesn't make sense. The Mexicans wouldn't know he was getting a passport. They wouldn't know what his car looked like. There wasn't anyone that could have tipped them off. His capture was completely random.

I read it as the guys at the cake/coffee shop tipped the Mexicans off.

I didn't think that would work because why not just hand him over at the cake/coffee shop?

mwdowns wrote:

I read it as the guys at the cake/coffee shop tipped the Mexicans off.

Me too. They gave each other a look after Vince walked away. Gave me a sense of foreboding.

Wasn't Frank driving the same Audi all the time?

Not really a far stretch that the Mexicans were looking for him and someone spotted his car between all the stops he had to make.

If anything the ridiculous part is he bought all those things he needed but.... No unmarked car.

He and Ray got into identical cars and burned the SUV they did the robbery in. Sure seemed like they were dumping it for two clean cars to escape in.

What a disappointment overall. It felt to me like Pizzolatto just threw every cop show cliche into a blender. So plot heavy. Ugh.

I wonder if Fukunaga's direction in season one is what made the show work. Pizzolatto notably clashed with him back then, and maybe it's the absence of a strong directorial vision that lead to this season's problems.

gore wrote:

What a disappointment overall. It felt to me like Pizzolatto just threw every cop show cliche into a blender. So plot heavy. Ugh.

I wonder if Fukunaga's direction in season one is what made the show work. Pizzolatto notably clashed with him back then, and maybe it's the absence of a strong directorial vision that lead to this season's problems.

And yet everything that this season got wrong was ultimately the issue with Season 1, albeit to a much more pronounced degree. I agree; Season 1 despite its flaws worked because of Cary Joji Fukunaga and worked in spite of Nic Pizzolatto. Pizzolatto's a creative force akin to Gene Roddenberry or Frank Miller; he brings good ideas to the table but they work better when they're tempered by another voice. Compare Star Trek: The Next Generation's early years or even The Original Series' "The Omega Glory" to other seasons of TOS, TNG, and the arcs of DS9 or Batman: Year One and The Dark Knight Returns versus The Dark Knight Returns 2 or All Star Batman & Robin. Sometimes there needs to be someone in the room to tell the creator, "No."

Or Empire Strikes Back to the prequels. Kirshner and Kasdan are responsible for the best Star Wars film so far.

The show ended just as poorly as it had rambled along. The endings for Ray and Frank were stupid, and really disappointing. The Mexicans.. really? They were just a waste of screen time and they off a major character, though I guess there was a good bit of that nonsense. I'm sure there will be a S3 but I think I'll hold off and get a read on opinions before I waste any time. I was excited enough for S2 that I subbed to HBO just for that, so I guess I'm part of the problem.

gore wrote:

What a disappointment overall. It felt to me like Pizzolatto just threw every cop show cliche into a blender. So plot heavy. Ugh.

I wonder if Fukunaga's direction in season one is what made the show work. Pizzolatto notably clashed with him back then, and maybe it's the absence of a strong directorial vision that lead to this season's problems.

The direction and the performances definitely sold Season 1. The direction here was... adequate, and the performances were spotty. McAdams and Farrell were phenomenal, and at least acted like they were in the same show. The big problem this show exhibited was that there were a lot of actors giving it a lot of different styles and that never comes off well. That's almost entirely down to the director. If they don't get everyone singing from the same hymn sheet the whole thing never comes together.

Stele wrote:

He and Ray got into identical cars and burned the SUV they did the robbery in. Sure seemed like they were dumping it for two clean cars to escape in.

Ray had been driving the same charger? the entire season which was a tad ridiculous considering at the train station he was aware he was a state/country? wide wanted man.

Frank didn't do too much driving but pre heist they show him in the Audi. So he has the smarts to buy a Landrover (nice expensive very obvious car) to do the heist in but then jumps into the Audi that if it is his personal car everyone knows he drives?

Regardless its not that large a stretch that the Mexicans found him considering either of the two groups people he met post heist could of tipped them off.

Redwing wrote:

Oh gods people, can we please stop abusing the word trope? Tropes are not bad, at least not intrinsically. Saying something is trope-y is kind of meaningless, it's like saying a house is super bricky. I get what you all mean, but I've noticed a lot of people are doing this lately and I feel like it's a bad habit to get into.

I think people are mixing together tropes with outright cheesiness.

And oh boy that last episode was full of cheesewiz.

Casper is the father of the Daughter + Son who killed him and they never knew? That entire train station scene went from HBO quality to what I would see in something like Criminal Minds. Which is fine if I'm watching CBS.

Ray stops to see his son? That alone is so cheesy cliche but his son also carries around his grandfathers badge? They then do a little salute? Really!?!?
Ok so we are at that level of silly but then he calls to say he wont make it and that hes going to lose his tail... By driving into the forest? while trying to record a message to his son?
So instead like he says over the phone he doesn't try to to lose them in a parking garage and swap cars? Cause you know that might work versus driving into the forest to try and go 1 v 4-5.

Back to Frank besides all the silliness with his wife and I'll meet you wearing a white suit with a red rose. He's in the desert. They are not going to kill him. He's about to lose his suit. He never 'lays down' whatever that exactly entails so lets punch one of the gangsters in the nose. I'm only outnumbered 10? to 1 this will obviously work.

and the final cherry on top we get the shot that Ray is the true father.... But! Not only that theres a new baby? I guess they wanted to use that to help us put together the timeline of how long it took for Bezzerides to meet with a journalist? The assumption here is its her baby from Ray also because she then carries it?

On that finale alone I would advise friends who haven't seen it to not bother. Thats a 7 hour investment to just get slapped around at the end for 1.5 hours.

I'm pretty sure Ray and Frank both knew they weren't going to survive, hence why Ray drove out to the woods to give Ani time to escape. Frank knew he wasn't coming back from the desert. The Mexicans had already dug his grave, so you might as well keep your suit.

jowner wrote:
Stele wrote:

He and Ray got into identical cars and burned the SUV they did the robbery in. Sure seemed like they were dumping it for two clean cars to escape in.

Ray had been driving the same charger? the entire season which was a tad ridiculous considering at the train station he was aware he was a state/country? wide wanted man.

Frank didn't do too much driving but pre heist they show him in the Audi. So he has the smarts to buy a Landrover (nice expensive very obvious car) to do the heist in but then jumps into the Audi that if it is his personal car everyone knows he drives?

Regardless its not that large a stretch that the Mexicans found him considering either of the two groups people he met post heist could of tipped them off.

Redwing wrote:

Oh gods people, can we please stop abusing the word trope? Tropes are not bad, at least not intrinsically. Saying something is trope-y is kind of meaningless, it's like saying a house is super bricky. I get what you all mean, but I've noticed a lot of people are doing this lately and I feel like it's a bad habit to get into.

I think people are mixing together tropes with outright cheesiness.

And oh boy that last episode was full of cheesewiz.

Casper is the father of the Daughter + Son who killed him and they never knew? That entire train station scene went from HBO quality to what I would see in something like Criminal Minds. Which is fine if I'm watching CBS.

Ray stops to see his son? That alone is so cheesy cliche but his son also carries around his grandfathers badge? They then do a little salute? Really!?!?
Ok so we are at that level of silly but then he calls to say he wont make it and that hes going to lose his tail... By driving into the forest? while trying to record a message to his son?
So instead like he says over the phone he doesn't try to to lose them in a parking garage and swap cars? Cause you know that might work versus driving into the forest to try and go 1 v 4-5.

Back to Frank besides all the silliness with his wife and I'll meet you wearing a white suit with a red rose. He's in the desert. They are not going to kill him. He's about to lose his suit. He never 'lays down' whatever that exactly entails so lets punch one of the gangsters in the nose. I'm only outnumbered 10? to 1 this will obviously work.

and the final cherry on top we get the shot that Ray is the true father.... But! Not only that theres a new baby? I guess they wanted to use that to help us put together the timeline of how long it took for Bezzerides to meet with a journalist? The assumption here is its her baby from Ray also because she then carries it?

On that finale alone I would advise friends who haven't seen it to not bother. Thats a 7 hour investment to just get slapped around at the end for 1.5 hours.

+1 Except for the highlighted. Diamonds and passport were in the suit. It was less the humiliation and more the loss of everything he had.

Was Frank ambushed in the same underpass where he had someone else beaten up? Maybe they all look the same, maybe it was meant as karmic retribution.

jowner wrote:

Casper is the father of the Daughter + Son who killed him and they never knew? That entire train station scene went from HBO quality to what I would see in something like Criminal Minds. Which is fine if I'm watching CBS.

Only the father of the daughter, I think.

Ok so we are at that level of silly but then he calls to say he wont make it and that hes going to lose his tail... By driving into the forest? while trying to record a message to his son?
So instead like he says over the phone he doesn't try to to lose them in a parking garage and swap cars? Cause you know that might work versus driving into the forest to try and go 1 v 4-5.

And then he hurls himself from his cover when up until then he'd been doing a fine job of ambush and fade.

Back to Frank besides all the silliness with his wife and I'll meet you wearing a white suit with a red rose. He's in the desert. They are not going to kill him. He's about to lose his suit. He never 'lays down' whatever that exactly entails so lets punch one of the gangsters in the nose. I'm only outnumbered 10? to 1 this will obviously work.

Oh they were definitely going to kill him and he knew it.

At the time I simply assumed the shopkeepers sold Frank out to the Mexicans. They exchanged a knowing glance there as he drove off.

gore wrote:

At the time I simply assumed the shopkeepers sold Frank out to the Mexicans. They exchanged a knowing glance there as he drove off.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. At one point they showed a close up of the bartender and I thought she may have been compromised also.

I actually went into the finale thinking all 4 main characters would die due to the criticism season 1 received for it's "happy" ending. I also saw somewhere that the stuff Ray's dad says to him in the dream was pretty much exactly what happened to him. I don't recall the episode well enough to confirm.

I can't say I hated this season, I was there every week, but way too much of it felt silly. So many things just seem ... ridiculous. Just the finale alone had a lot of headscratchers - letting Lenny listen in to Ray and Holloway's conversation, the Mexican's, the odd way in which Caspere's body was left (for no reason at all) as explained by Erica, the list goes on.

Hopefully Pizzalotto learns something here and season 3 (has it been announced?) is an improvement - maybe less charcters? maybe a story a bit more mysterious? Doesn't sound like there's any chance of Fukunaga coming back so there's no point in hoping for that.

Shifter wrote:
gore wrote:

At the time I simply assumed the shopkeepers sold Frank out to the Mexicans. They exchanged a knowing glance there as he drove off.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. At one point they showed a close up of the bartender and I thought she may have been compromised also.

Yeah it seemed like she was in love with Ray all season, and I thought jealousy was going to rear it's ugly head and she was going to take out Bezzerides.

Trophy Husband wrote:
jowner wrote:
Stele wrote:

He and Ray got into identical cars and burned the SUV they did the robbery in. Sure seemed like they were dumping it for two clean cars to escape in.

Ray had been driving the same charger? the entire season which was a tad ridiculous considering at the train station he was aware he was a state/country? wide wanted man.

Frank didn't do too much driving but pre heist they show him in the Audi. So he has the smarts to buy a Landrover (nice expensive very obvious car) to do the heist in but then jumps into the Audi that if it is his personal car everyone knows he drives?

Regardless its not that large a stretch that the Mexicans found him considering either of the two groups people he met post heist could of tipped them off.

Redwing wrote:

Oh gods people, can we please stop abusing the word trope? Tropes are not bad, at least not intrinsically. Saying something is trope-y is kind of meaningless, it's like saying a house is super bricky. I get what you all mean, but I've noticed a lot of people are doing this lately and I feel like it's a bad habit to get into.

I think people are mixing together tropes with outright cheesiness.

And oh boy that last episode was full of cheesewiz.

Casper is the father of the Daughter + Son who killed him and they never knew? That entire train station scene went from HBO quality to what I would see in something like Criminal Minds. Which is fine if I'm watching CBS.

Ray stops to see his son? That alone is so cheesy cliche but his son also carries around his grandfathers badge? They then do a little salute? Really!?!?
Ok so we are at that level of silly but then he calls to say he wont make it and that hes going to lose his tail... By driving into the forest? while trying to record a message to his son?
So instead like he says over the phone he doesn't try to to lose them in a parking garage and swap cars? Cause you know that might work versus driving into the forest to try and go 1 v 4-5.

Back to Frank besides all the silliness with his wife and I'll meet you wearing a white suit with a red rose. He's in the desert. They are not going to kill him. He's about to lose his suit. He never 'lays down' whatever that exactly entails so lets punch one of the gangsters in the nose. I'm only outnumbered 10? to 1 this will obviously work.

and the final cherry on top we get the shot that Ray is the true father.... But! Not only that theres a new baby? I guess they wanted to use that to help us put together the timeline of how long it took for Bezzerides to meet with a journalist? The assumption here is its her baby from Ray also because she then carries it?

On that finale alone I would advise friends who haven't seen it to not bother. Thats a 7 hour investment to just get slapped around at the end for 1.5 hours.

+1 Except for the highlighted. Diamonds and passport were in the suit. It was less the humiliation and more the loss of everything he had.

Fair enough on the diamonds and passport part.

As to the other post about how he knew the Mexicans were going to kill him anyways they seemed to only stop and turn as he made his last comment. I think they were content with leaving him in the desert which was already most likely a death sentence.

Regardless the show had a chance to reign in the ridiculous parts and give us a believable reasonable ending and instead they double downed and just embraced it all.

jowner wrote:

they double downed

Heh.

My two cents: This year was some great content with sloppy execution. The outline of the plot (rich guys manipulating land deals around railroad construction) is the plot of roughly 1/3 of Westerns, so I'm in on that. And I think that they had some great performances this year--including Vince Vaughn, at times. But honestly, so many of the scenes, plot turns, and dialogue felt like a first draft:

Spoiler:

All that stuff with Frank, the shot of the phone as Ray died, the dialogue between the V Vaughn character and his girlfriend, the scene where they raid the rich people's orgy-land deal thing, the 'big reveal' scene of the Birdman in the train station.

And the list could go on and on.

Season 1 had some problems too, but (imo) it was redeemed by great execution. Didn't have enough of that this year. I saw somewhere the creator spent 2 years putting together season 1 and one year on season 2, and I think you can see the effects of that.

But this year had one of my favorite title sequences ever.

Polygon bids adieu to Season 2 with a really, really long article that puts all the pieces together and points out some details you might have missed, such as...

Spoiler:

...the two guys from the Santa Muertes present at Tony Chessani's inauguration as mayor. Maybe if Cisco Kid had worn the hat, he'd be easier to spot.

Arise thread with news of Season 3. Mahershala Ali nearing deal to star in said Season 3.

Really enjoyed the previous seasons. Nice casting pick, now we just need a hint at the story and setting

Arise thread:

Looking forward to it. I've done my best to avoid reviews and spoilers. I was one of the few didn't completely hate season 2.