Drivers of Manual Transmissions, Let's Chat

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If you don't follow the Silly Purchase of the Month thread, I bought a new car a few days ago - specifically a Mustang. Naturally, buying a car like that, I went with a manual transmission. In my 17 years of driving, I've never learned to drive a stick. The salesman who sold me the car taught me how to on the test drive. Naturally, it was... Not the smoothest test drive I could ask for.

I've had the car for four days, and I'm sure I'm still learning, but I want to get bad habits weeded out as soon as possible, so I don't end up having to get the clutch replaced any time soon. So, I'm looking for advice from experienced manual drivers.

So, my first questions:

- Second gear. It seems like, if I accelerate, and shift into second, and go anywhere above 1700 RPM, or don't let the RPMs come down to about that, the shift is rough. Is this normal (mostly asking for the sake of determining if there's a problem with my car) ? Should I just shift into second really early? Should I just come off the clutch more slowly?

- Slowing down is the thing where I am most at a loss for exactly what to do and what is best. I have thus far followed some advice I found from the Magliozzi Bros (Car Talk), which is, slow down to about 20-15 MPH, then come to a stop in neutral. Brakes are cheaper and easier to replace than a clutch - don't downshift as much, and don't use the clutch to slow down.

- Starting out faster. I read somewhere that when you're getting ready to go, you can keep the clutch closer to the bite point and get moving a little bit sooner than you would otherwise. But I'm curious exactly how, for example, drag racers, driving a manual transmission, get such a fast start off the line. I am driving a Mustang, but when starting out, I feel like I'm pulling a tractor trailer. Any advice, or do I just have to get a feel for it?

Edit to add pictures in case anyone wants to see*

*because I want to show off

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/23X8vAL.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/Lfaseph.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/egu3ckp.jpg)

IMAGE(http://www.imgur.com/lt1wnFO.jpeg)

Thin_J wrote:
Starting out faster. I read somewhere that when you're getting ready to go, you can keep the clutch closer to the bite point and get moving a little bit sooner than you would otherwise. But I'm curious exactly how, for example, drag racers, driving a manual transmission, get such a fast start off the line. I am driving a Mustang, but when starting out, I feel like I'm pulling a tractor trailer. Any advice, or do I just have to get a feel for it

It sounds like you're not using enough gas when starting. Don't overcompensate now that someone's told you this, just try easing into it a little sooner. Like I said, your car's powerband starts closer to 3000rpm. If you're trying to get moving or to accelerate down at 1700rpm it's going to feel slow. I've driven go-karts with more horsepower than that 4 cylinder throws out at 1700 rpm.

Yup, you need more gas, it'll rev back down when it gets into gear so don't worry too much if you're above 4000 rpm before engaging the clutch.

If you're starting out and it feels like you have a trailer you're likely fairly close to stalling it. Starting out that slow is what it should feel like in 2nd gear from a dead stop (assuming you don't stall out).

Trick for getting into gear on a hill:

http://www.wikihow.com/Get-Started-o...

Very helpful in snow though you got a Mustang so have fun with that around here. You will need snow tires. Fo sho

NSMike wrote:

Second gear. It seems like, if I accelerate, and shift into second, and go anywhere above 1700 RPM, or don't let the RPMs come down to about that, the shift is rough. Is this normal (mostly asking for the sake of determining if there's a problem with my car) ? Should I just shift into second really early? Should I just come off the clutch more slowly?

So... I'll give this a whirl. Your car's power band really kind of starts at around 2800 rpm. And even then it's low. Like you're putting 50 horsepower to the wheels at that point, and barely over 100 lb-ft of torque. At 3200rpm those numbers go up to 150 and 250, respectively. My mustang was notably different with the old V8, but even in that I didn't generally shift soon enough to drop it anywhere below 2000.

It sounds to me like you're either lugging the engine or bordering on it by shifting into second too soon.

But this one I can't be sure on. Are you saying no matter where you shift in first, the only way to get a smooth shift into second is at 1700rpm? That sounds really weird. The smoothest shift into second should be dependent on how high you go on the tach in first, not a static number.

Slowing down is the thing where I am most at a loss for exactly what to do and what is best. I have thus far followed some advice I found from the Magliozzi Bros (Car Talk), which is, slow down to about 20-15 MPH, then come to a stop in neutral. Brakes are cheaper and easier to replace than a clutch - don't downshift as much, and don't use the clutch to slow down.

The Magliozzi Bros are right. Brake pads are cheap, even rotors aren't expensive, and it's an easy job to do on your own. Shops can do it quickly because it's so relatively easy so labor costs aren't insane. The only time in all the years I had manuals that I bothered downshifting was when I knew I needed to accelerate again soon but had to slow down enough that I'd be lugging the engine if I stayed in my current gear.

Starting out faster. I read somewhere that when you're getting ready to go, you can keep the clutch closer to the bite point and get moving a little bit sooner than you would otherwise. But I'm curious exactly how, for example, drag racers, driving a manual transmission, get such a fast start off the line. I am driving a Mustang, but when starting out, I feel like I'm pulling a tractor trailer. Any advice, or do I just have to get a feel for it

It sounds like you're not using enough gas when starting. Don't overcompensate now that someone's told you this, just try easing into it a little sooner. Like I said, your car's powerband starts closer to 3000rpm. If you're trying to get moving or to accelerate down at 1700rpm it's going to feel slow. I've driven go-karts with more horsepower than that 4 cylinder throws out at 1700 rpm.

I don't think I understand your answer to my question about shifting into second. I think I may have explained it poorly, so I'll give it another go.

Scenario 1:

- Start out in first. Accelerate until the RPMs are at about +/- 3000.
- Clutch in. Shift to second.
- Clutch out, foot on gas - jerky shift.

Scenario 2:

- Start out in first. Accelerate until the RPMs are at about +/- 3000.
- Clutch in. Shift to second.
- Clutch out, foot off gas for a second or so - still a jerky shift, but much less pronounced.

Scenario 3:

- Start out in first. Accelerate until the RPMs are at about +/- 3000.
- Clutch in. Shift to second.
- Wait until RPMs hit 2000 or a little lower, clutch out, foot off gas for a second or so - smooth shift.

Also, hill starts are pretty easy in this car. It has a "hill assist" feature - the computer detects when you're on an incline, and will hold the brakes for 2.5 seconds when you take your foot off of it. The brakes immediately let go when you start revving the engine enough to engage the transmission, so you still need to engage it correctly, but it helps. I've also read that using the clutch like that to hold position on a hill is really bad for it.

All I've ever driven have been manuals, and I can tell you all of them are a bit different in how they perform. I can hop into someone else's manual to drive and it takes me some time to acclimate to driving their car, even after 20 years of this. Of course, I have a Jeep Wrangler now and that's a totally different beast than your Mustang -- I can be comfortably in third gear shortly after clearing a stoplight in which I was at a dead stop.

My advice is that it could be that you're really overfocused on getting around to 3k rpms every time. Maybe try shifting when you hear that the car needs it into second and just find the sweet spot. You shouldn't really need to leave your foot off the gas for a second to make it work properly.

That number is just an example to show that I'm getting it above the point where it feel like shifting into second isn't as rough. I'm not really focusing on that RPM.

Mike, on the second thing, without actually being in the car or seeing/feeling it I'm not sure I can help anymore. It shouldn't be any different than shifting into any other gear, so if you do it one way shifting from second into third and farther up but have to do something different for second, I don't know. That sounds really weird.

When you say jerky shift, does the jerk come when you engage the clutch or after you hit the gas? If you've let completely off the clutch then the transmission is engaged. If you're getting a sudden surge after hitting the gas it may just be a little bit of turbo lag, which is just part of life (the fun part...) with a turbocharged car

NSMike wrote:

I've also read that using the clutch like that to hold position on a hill is really bad for it.

You're not using the clutch to hold position, you're using the e-brake to free up your left foot so you can treat the clutch just like you do in a normal start. You heard correct though, never ride the clutch near the point where it engages to hold the car in position. It will cause premature wear on the clutch plates.

NSMike wrote:

I don't think I understand your answer to my question about shifting into second. I think I may have explained it poorly, so I'll give it another go.

Scenario 1:

- Start out in first. Accelerate until the RPMs are at about +/- 3000.
- Clutch in. Shift to second.
- Clutch out, foot on gas - jerky shift.

Scenario 2:

- Start out in first. Accelerate until the RPMs are at about +/- 3000.
- Clutch in. Shift to second.
- Clutch out, foot off gas for a second or so - still a jerky shift, but much less pronounced.

Scenario 3:

- Start out in first. Accelerate until the RPMs are at about +/- 3000.
- Clutch in. Shift to second.
- Wait until RPMs hit 2000 or a little lower, clutch out, foot off gas for a second or so - smooth shift.

Sounds like you're popping the clutch on the upshift. Shifting to second is no different than starting in first; smooth clutch and gas movements should give you smooth starts and shifts.

The jerks seem to happen right when I let off the clutch. I can't make sounds in a thread, obviously, but it jerks noticeably, and the RPM vary a bit like 2 or 3 times, like RRRrrrRRRrrrRRRR before it starts driving normally. It could be that I'm letting off the clutch too fast. I'll go a bit slower on the way home today and see if that makes a difference.

It sounds like Chumpy's right and you're popping the clutch. Your descriptions do read that way, now that I look again. Smooth but inverse almost simultaneous movements with each foot, just like when starting from a stop. As you let out on the clutch ease back into the gas. Don't do one and then the other.

I'd say taking up Oily on his offer from the other thread to drive around with him along would be a solid bet. It's a lot easier to work these things out in person, especially if you have someone else to watch drive the car smoothly

FWIW, it took me a solid week, give or take a couple days, when I first started driving a manual before I smoothed most of my various issues, of which there were many. And I had a people to ride along several times and help me figure out what all I was doing wrong at various points.

NSMike wrote:

The jerks seem to happen right when I let off the clutch. I can't make sounds in a thread, obviously, but it jerks noticeably, and the RPM vary a bit like 2 or 3 times, like RRRrrrRRRrrrRRRR before it starts driving normally. It could be that I'm letting off the clutch too fast. I'll go a bit slower on the way home today and see if that makes a difference.

Sounds like that to me. "Clutch feel" takes a little while to bed in, and after 17 years of driving automatics, you probably have a case of what I like to call "digital foot" - it's either down or it's up, instead of working through the length of the pedal throw.

The solution is pretty simple - drive more. You'll get it. Particularly because you're paying attention to it happening.

Gotta give it gas while letting out the clutch.

A lot of the learning curve is just getting the feel of where the friction point is, how much further until the clutch is fully engaged, and how much gas to give it during that to achieve a smooth shift. That can differ a lot with different cars. My first car was this. It had a few millimeters after the friction point to get it fully in gear, a massive turbo, and was extremely unforgiving. It took a long time to learn how to smoothly shift it as it was tuned to be driven as if it was on a race track. After driving it for several years I bought a little Toyota pickup which was about as forgiving as you can get. They were worlds apart as far as how easy it was to drive them.

I think it's more that I'm letting out the clutch too fast. I've definitely been giving it gas most of the time. The scenarios where I indicated I stayed off the gas was just testing to see if I could find a solution. It's not how I've been doing it regularly.

To me, it sounds like you need more gas as you're letting out the clutch. On my little Fiesta, it really wants to engage the transmission at around 2000 RPM to be happiest. If you put the clutch in when it's at around 3500, depending on how fast you shift, the revs may have dropped below the best shifting threshold. If that happens, you'll want to rev the engine a bit more than you are to get a smooth shift.

In my experience, the shift from dead stop to first gear is the trickiest shift to get smooth, and then from first to second is almost as tricky. Usually, it's better to give it a bit more gas than you think it needs than too little. But I've never driven a big mean Mustang before, so I dunno.

NSMike wrote:

I think it's more that I'm letting out the clutch too fast. I've definitely been giving it gas most of the time. The scenarios where I indicated I stayed off the gas was just testing to see if I could find a solution. It's not how I've been doing it regularly.

I probably wasn't too clear because that first sentence wasn't everything: It's how much gas to give it combined with how fast to travel from the friction point to where the clutch is fully engaged.

AKA - What you're thinking. I had read what came before and understand you were giving it gas. It doesn't sound like enough, and that you're letting the clutch out too fast.

Those are variable things depending on how fast you're going, what gear, how far you've revved up the previous gear, whether you're on a grade, etc. It's something you build up a feel for over time, and it's different between vehicles.

1 piece of advice: Don't "ride" the clutch, they are a little pricey to replace. I had to learn that the hard way as a teenager and getting one replaced in a Toyota Celica GT on a part-time stocking shelves paycheck was not fun in the least.

NSMike wrote:

I think it's more that I'm letting out the clutch too fast. I've definitely been giving it gas most of the time. The scenarios where I indicated I stayed off the gas was just testing to see if I could find a solution. It's not how I've been doing it regularly.

Most assuredly. The jerky clunkyness is everything trying to suddenly get working together. Driving a manual is all about getting a feel for the clutch and where the sweet spot is.

Generally it just takes time with the car to find it. Until then, slow down on the clutch as riding it a little is better than popping it as fast as humanly possible.

Maybe go to a parking lot and practice so you aren't worried about hitting someone or someone hitting you.

Just wanted to say have fun!

garion333 wrote:
NSMike wrote:

I think it's more that I'm letting out the clutch too fast. I've definitely been giving it gas most of the time. The scenarios where I indicated I stayed off the gas was just testing to see if I could find a solution. It's not how I've been doing it regularly.

Most assuredly. The jerky clunkyness is everything trying to suddenly get working together. Driving a manual is all about getting a feel for the clutch and where the sweet spot is.

Generally it just takes time with the car to find it. Until then, slow down on the clutch as riding it a little is better than popping it as fast as humanly possible.

Maybe go to a parking lot and practice so you aren't worried about hitting someone or someone hitting you.

Yeah! Eventually you can gradually release the clutch at a somewhat linear rate. To learn where the sweet spot is, though, I'd let out on the clutch until you start moving and then back off a lot releasing it until you start moving a bit before finally fully releasing it. Just let the clutch sit in the sweet spot for a little bit. That's my two cents in terms of learning. Once you practice that and get it figured out, you'll be able to release the clutch at a much more linear rate. That's mostly for first gear which is the main hurdle when learning.

I think there may be some crossover between two of the questions you had which may be confusing. I'll address them separately.

Starting from a stop

  • Depress the clutch past the friction point. If in doubt, just depress it fully, finding and getting used to the friction point just takes practice and is different from vehicle to vehicle.
  • Shift into first gear.
  • Give it some gas. The appropriate amount varies by vehicle. You'll want enough RPMs to get a smooth start with no stuttering but not so much that you spin the tires... unless you're trying to spin the tires of course. My Focus likes around 2000 RPM, experiment with your car to find the proper point.
  • Release the clutch while adding gas to keep the RPMs steady. As you get more experienced you'll be able to release the clutch faster and get going quicker.

The key to fast starts is to learn the balance between releasing the clutch and adding gas while maintaining your desired RPMs. Just takes practice.

Up-shifting

  • Depress the clutch past the friction point while at the same time fully releasing the gas pedal.
  • Shift the car into the next highest gear.
  • Release the clutch without adding any gas*. You want to be dropping RPMs while shifting. The amount you need to drop for a smooth shift will vary depending on your transmission, but it's not uncommon to drop 750-1000 RPMs on an up-shift.
  • Once the transmission is engaged, apply gas to maintain speed or to continue acceleration.

Key differences between starting out and up-shifting is you don't need to add gas while up-shifting. A smooth shift is one in which the engine is outputting the same amount of power immediately before and after the shift, which is a matter of finesse and balance. Pre shift you want low gear + high RPMs, post shift you want higher gear + lower RPMs. The RPMs you shift at don't matter when it comes to smoothness of shifting. You can up-shift at 3000 RPMs or at 6000 RPMs, the key is the RPM delta between pre and post shift.

Does that make sense?

[size=10]*Putting this here because otherwise someone is going to call me on it. Yes, you can give the car gas while up-shifting once you're more comfortable with the shift points for faster acceleration, but for now just practice without using the gas to learn the technique. There's very few situations in road driving where you'll need to be giving her gas during an up-shift.[/size]

The RPMs you shift at don't matter when it comes to smoothness of shifting. You can up-shift at 3000 RPMs or at 6000 RPMs, the key is the RPM delta between pre and post shift.

This is what I understood was the case, hence my confusion / worry over the jerky shift into 2nd. I am almost positive I'm just letting out the clutch too fast.

My starts from a standstill are pretty much 90% not jerky at this point. Occasionally I'll get a little excited and let out the clutch too fast and either stall or rock back and forth a bit. But I've pretty much got starting out down, to the point where I know immediately what I did wrong when it goes wrong. It just feels slow - and I guess caution isn't bad at this early point. I am just trying to make sure I'm not doing anything terribly damaging, which means I really need to correct my tendency to pop the clutch while up-shifting.

You can definitely not let out the clutch at a linear rate when shifting into second too when learning. Just let it out linearly until you get to the sweet spot and back off just a bit on how fast you are letting it out for a second or two and then go back to the initial rate.

If you are revving the engine high and upshift quickly, you are indeed going to get a jerk unless you really ride the clutch through the shift (not recommended). With the clutch locked, your transmission input and output shaft are turning together, at a ratio controlled by the gear you're in. When you clutch in and rapidly switch gears and clutch out, your output shaft is still turning at the same speed it was before, but the input shaft needs to turn much more slowly in order to match it. Hence you get a big jerk as the clutch lurches into lock. Gear ratio step jumps are biggest in the lowest gears, and those are also where you commonly accelerate hard, so you're noticing it most in 1st gear. Note that drivers who shift very early or very slowly will experience a similar problem (they have let the revs fall below the natural shift point, and need to bring them back up).

So yes, if you're at high RPM and wish to spare your clutch and passengers, it's best to let your engine revs drop a bit. I'm unfamiliar with Mustang flywheel weight and shift points. In some cars and situations it's enough to simply shift more slowly and clutch in smoothly and you'll have matched things up, in others you have to pause with the clutch in to let the engine dump revs before re-engaging. Naturally this {ableist slur}s your acceleration, and if you clutch in too quickly you'll get a lurch there too. The best way is to simply drive your car enough to get your shift points and engine sounds firmly ingrained in the lizard brain, and you'll find yourself staying right in the power band and shifting smoothly without thinking about it when trying to go fast.

If you try to get around this problem by shifting very quickly but letting the clutch out very slowly, you're causing a great deal of wear with that slippage. If you're leasing and plan to bring 'er back in 3 years, have fun. If not, don't do this.

I miss driving a manual. I wanted a manual for my Focus, but the used market for that when I purchased mine a couple years ago was basically only automatics.

The RPMs you shift at don't matter when it comes to smoothness of shifting. You can up-shift at 3000 RPMs or at 6000 RPMs, the key is the RPM delta between pre and post shift.

I think this is a bit misleading. Yes, it is the delta, but unless you're driving down a very steep hill you're going to have a larger delta when you're shifting near redline, and your shift behavior needs to change accordingly.

OK now I'm confused again.

Mainly by the idea of "shifting faster." Do you mean how quickly I physically move the stick from first to second? I didn't think that made much difference, and regardless, I'm not rushing through that anyway.

How soon in my acceleration in first I shift? I mean, I have no problem letting the RPMs come down after shifting before letting out the clutch, especially if that means slipping the clutch less... I'm just confused, I guess.

Did you have to pass a test to drive a manual? I'm surprised you're allowed to buy one if you can't drive it properly (yet). I think over here if you do your test in an automatic, you're only licenced to drive an automatic.

1Dgaf wrote:

Did you have to pass a test to drive a manual? I'm surprised you're allowed to buy one if you can't drive it properly (yet). I think over here if you do your test in an automatic, you're only licenced to drive an automatic.

Nope. No testing required.

Go drive alone someplace uncomplicated. Accelerate and shift quickly at something like 2500 RPM, letting the clutch out fast. Do not accelerate. Watch the tach as you do this and see how it blips down during the lurch. Let's hypothesize it drops to 2000 RPM in the lurch and then continues to descend as you're not giving it gas.

Now get back into first gear and then accelerate to redline, shifting at the same speed you did before. Again, do not accelerate after clutching in. You'll feel a much harder lurch and see the tach blip from 6000 to 4000 (higher than our previous scenario, because you're obviously going faster by the time you hit redline).

In one case, the input shaft had to drop 500 RPM in order to sync up, in the other, it had to drop 2000. That increased differential is why it lurched harder. You can go do math on gear ratios and various speeds and inclines, but it's simpler to remember that in the general case, the higher you rev, the more the engine is going to have to slow down in order to grab the next gear.

This works in the other direction too (where you need to pick up revs when downshifting), and the true joy of driving manual is learning to double clutch to get your input shaft turning more quickly while downshifting during turns, which we won't get into here.

NSMike wrote:

Do you mean how quickly I physically move the stick from first to second? I didn't think that made much difference

No, I mean the time it takes from clutch in to clutch out. You could clutch in, twiddle your thumbs, then move the stick and clutch out. Or you could clutch in, move the stick, twiddle your thumbs, and clutch out. It won't affect this scenario.

In the post immediately above, I'm saying no thumb twiddling during the test. Do the whole thing quickly.

Jonman wrote:

Nope. No testing required.

This thread suggests that isn't a good idea. THough if I was NSMike's neighbour, and could not afford a Mustang, I think I'd quite enjoy the sight of him lurching down the road.

Welcome to the club. Our days are numbered. It seems there are fewer and fewer manual options, and they're now more expensive than automatic. But it may all be moot when we transition to the self driving future.

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