iaintgotnopants wrote:If they aren't going to generate revenue from these subs, isn't Reddit essentially paying out of it's own pocket to host them?
My guess is that the Reddit admins understand that statistically, if they ban the "problem subs", they would actually end up alienating a large amount of their active users. I'd like to see the Venn diagram of "most active users overall" and "active users on problem subs". I don't imagine it'd be a perfect circle, but I think there's a large overlap.
It's not quite that, but someone did an analysis of the users on a particular, about to be banned hate subreddit.
Don't read the comments unless you want an acute illustration of why Reddit has an image problem.
Bloo Driver wrote:My guess is that the Reddit admins understand that statistically, if they ban the "problem subs", they would actually end up alienating a large amount of their active users. I'd like to see the Venn diagram of "most active users overall" and "active users on problem subs". I don't imagine it'd be a perfect circle, but I think there's a large overlap.
Why would they care about those users, especially if they've already decided to wall off the problem subs and not monetize them?
I doubt there's very many users who are going to leave Reddit forever because they shut down some of the skeezier as well as outright offensive subs. They'll Female Doggo and moan for a while and then completely forget about it.
I don't think you're grasping what I mean, here. If they ban the problem subs, the people who participate in those problem subs are very likely to just leave or boycott or at least come to the site much, much less. This includes visiting other subs that are less controversial but probably frequently visited by these folks - /gadgets, /gaming, and whatever else.
Now, if that slice of the Reddit demographic (people who participate in crappy subs that get banned) represents a large enough chunk of the overall active Reddit userbase, Reddit has now shot their attempt to monetize the site in the foot.
I don't think you're grasping what I mean, here. If they ban the problem subs, the people who participate in those problem subs are very likely to just leave or boycott or at least come to the site much, much less. This includes visiting other subs that are less controversial but probably frequently visited by these folks - /gadgets, /gaming, and whatever else.
Now, if that slice of the Reddit demographic (people who participate in crappy subs that get banned) represents a large enough chunk of the overall active Reddit userbase, Reddit has now shot their attempt to monetize the site in the foot.
No, I get what you're saying. But Reddit's management team has to decide if they want to build their community (and their business) on the backs of terribly hateful and disturbing people who just so happen to post outside of their normal troll hole.
I don't think that Reddit will really be able to grow if it's advertising demographics are basically racists who get tired of talking about white power and want to look at cat pictures.
In the real world I would compare this to the gentrification of a really terrible neighborhood. The developer, Reddit (and its owners) want to attract more people and more businesses (advertisers). That's not going to happen when the headquarters of the KKK, NAMBLA, and Misogyny and Hate, Inc. are on the same block. Those tenants have to go before the neighborhood can grow.
SixteenBlue wrote:BadKen wrote:Spez has not answered very many questions in his AMA.
BTW, one of the best messages I've read in response to the post QStone linked above:
/u/str1cken wrote:I'm crestfallen.
It really seemed like you were going to do the right thing here.
White supremacy, as an ideology, has been one of the most destructive, ugly forces for evil in the history of the human race. Two of the worst atrocities in human history -- the holocaust and slavery -- are a direct result of ideologies of white supremacy, to say nothing of lynchings, disenfranchisement, and the exclusion of nonwhites in general and African-Americans specifically at every level of public and private life in America.
And atrocities abound globally and throughout history as a direct result of ideologies of racial superiority.
Reddit has become one of the #1 hubs for white supremacists on the internet. Continuing to host white supremacist communities in light of everything we know about white supremacy is not only a tacit endorsement of white supremacy but a violation of your own policies against inciting harm or violence.
You want to read subs like /r/coontown as somehow existing outside of the world, outside of the context of the very, very long history of white supremacy. To do so is irresponsible, willfully ignorant, and destructive and hurtful not just to redditors of color and white anti-racist redditors, but to every person of color who encounters members of your white supremacist community on the streets, in offices, at parties and concerts.
You have an opportunity here to fix something terrible inside reddit, to begin healing a very ugly wound that festers inside the heart of your site. And you're choosing not to for reasons I don't and cannot understand.
By standing by and allowing this community and their ideology to flourish on your site, you as a company and as individuals are culpable and stakeholders in white supremacist action, behavior, discrimination, and violence that takes place in the world.
You should be ashamed.This this this this this this this this this this so much this.
All of this is exactly why I really hate reddit and it says it in a way that I could never really put into words.
Edit: This is also why the "it's a platform, there's lots of good subs, you have to opt-in, etc" just don't matter to me. That's all well and good for how you choose to interact with Reddit, I don't hold that against you, but none of that changes what Reddit, as a company, is responsible for. None of that absolves Reddit.
They don't need absolving.
Great response. Real deep conversation.
Couldn't figure out which thread to put this in, but since this is the trendy one, now Gawker's in a kerfuffle.
Well, if you want to connect it to reddit directly, there's this thread, where I stepped in it, and fortunately, most of the users came out on my side. Just look for a highly downvoted comment at the bottom of the thread by the original submitter of the post.
Man, someone even linked bombsfall's "But I'm a Nice Guy" video in that comment thread.
SECRET GOODJER CONSPIRACY
They turned me into a newt!
Couldn't figure out which thread to put this in, but since this is the trendy one, now Gawker's in a kerfuffle.
Even Perez Hilton is telling Gawker they f*cked up.
When the king sleaze of all online media tells you maybe you should back off the sleaziness, it's time to pay attention.
Gawker Media editorial staff have issued a statement. Does it apologize for publishing the appalling article outing an executive of a competing media company and abetting an extortionist? No, it whines about how the article was taken down by Gawker executives instead of editorial.
As one commenter put it:
"The partners who voted to remove the post were Heather Dietrick, who serves as president and chief legal counsel; Andrew Gorenstein, who serves as the president of advertising and partnerships; chief operating officer Scott Kidder; chief strategy officer Erin Pettigrew; and chief executive officer Nick Denton, who founded Gawker Media in 2002."
...
Dudes, when your CHIEF FREAKIN LEGAL COUNSEL is telling you to pull a post, it’s time to STFU and listen.
Normally I'd ignore this as a bunch of online media internal politics BS, but Gawker may have done significant damage to this Geithner fellow's life. What they posted was rumor mongering of the worst sort - the kind of thing that destroys careers and ruins marriages even if it turns out to be false.
As an aside, I really like Patrick Klepek and the stuff he does, but moves like this from Gawker are what made me nervous when he went to Kotaku.
I suppose Hulk Hogan's lawyers have been taking copious notes today in his lawsuit against Gawker.
RolandofGilead wrote:SixteenBlue wrote:BadKen wrote:Spez has not answered very many questions in his AMA.
BTW, one of the best messages I've read in response to the post QStone linked above:
/u/str1cken wrote:I'm crestfallen.
It really seemed like you were going to do the right thing here.
White supremacy, as an ideology, has been one of the most destructive, ugly forces for evil in the history of the human race. Two of the worst atrocities in human history -- the holocaust and slavery -- are a direct result of ideologies of white supremacy, to say nothing of lynchings, disenfranchisement, and the exclusion of nonwhites in general and African-Americans specifically at every level of public and private life in America.
And atrocities abound globally and throughout history as a direct result of ideologies of racial superiority.
Reddit has become one of the #1 hubs for white supremacists on the internet. Continuing to host white supremacist communities in light of everything we know about white supremacy is not only a tacit endorsement of white supremacy but a violation of your own policies against inciting harm or violence.
You want to read subs like /r/coontown as somehow existing outside of the world, outside of the context of the very, very long history of white supremacy. To do so is irresponsible, willfully ignorant, and destructive and hurtful not just to redditors of color and white anti-racist redditors, but to every person of color who encounters members of your white supremacist community on the streets, in offices, at parties and concerts.
You have an opportunity here to fix something terrible inside reddit, to begin healing a very ugly wound that festers inside the heart of your site. And you're choosing not to for reasons I don't and cannot understand.
By standing by and allowing this community and their ideology to flourish on your site, you as a company and as individuals are culpable and stakeholders in white supremacist action, behavior, discrimination, and violence that takes place in the world.
You should be ashamed.This this this this this this this this this this so much this.
All of this is exactly why I really hate reddit and it says it in a way that I could never really put into words.
Edit: This is also why the "it's a platform, there's lots of good subs, you have to opt-in, etc" just don't matter to me. That's all well and good for how you choose to interact with Reddit, I don't hold that against you, but none of that changes what Reddit, as a company, is responsible for. None of that absolves Reddit.
They don't need absolving.
Great response. Real deep conversation.
For what are they responsible?
Hosting and promoting havens for hate speech.
Passive acceptance is endorsement. They provide a platform to the worst kinds of scum.
That's what they're responsible for.
SixteenBlue wrote:RolandofGilead wrote:SixteenBlue wrote:BadKen wrote:Spez has not answered very many questions in his AMA.
BTW, one of the best messages I've read in response to the post QStone linked above:
/u/str1cken wrote:I'm crestfallen.
It really seemed like you were going to do the right thing here.
White supremacy, as an ideology, has been one of the most destructive, ugly forces for evil in the history of the human race. Two of the worst atrocities in human history -- the holocaust and slavery -- are a direct result of ideologies of white supremacy, to say nothing of lynchings, disenfranchisement, and the exclusion of nonwhites in general and African-Americans specifically at every level of public and private life in America.
And atrocities abound globally and throughout history as a direct result of ideologies of racial superiority.
Reddit has become one of the #1 hubs for white supremacists on the internet. Continuing to host white supremacist communities in light of everything we know about white supremacy is not only a tacit endorsement of white supremacy but a violation of your own policies against inciting harm or violence.
You want to read subs like /r/coontown as somehow existing outside of the world, outside of the context of the very, very long history of white supremacy. To do so is irresponsible, willfully ignorant, and destructive and hurtful not just to redditors of color and white anti-racist redditors, but to every person of color who encounters members of your white supremacist community on the streets, in offices, at parties and concerts.
You have an opportunity here to fix something terrible inside reddit, to begin healing a very ugly wound that festers inside the heart of your site. And you're choosing not to for reasons I don't and cannot understand.
By standing by and allowing this community and their ideology to flourish on your site, you as a company and as individuals are culpable and stakeholders in white supremacist action, behavior, discrimination, and violence that takes place in the world.
You should be ashamed.This this this this this this this this this this so much this.
All of this is exactly why I really hate reddit and it says it in a way that I could never really put into words.
Edit: This is also why the "it's a platform, there's lots of good subs, you have to opt-in, etc" just don't matter to me. That's all well and good for how you choose to interact with Reddit, I don't hold that against you, but none of that changes what Reddit, as a company, is responsible for. None of that absolves Reddit.
They don't need absolving.
Great response. Real deep conversation.
For what are they responsible?
I bolded the relevant part.
Looks like "Reddit goes crazy" still applies though, based on the comments.
What gets me is that as Reddit is clearly saying "Some speech is awful and will not be supported" the response is "Why are you not treating all speech equally?"
The people jumping up to defend /r/lolicon are a little disturbing, too.
They refuse to recognize Reddit's right to not support animated CP because it's not the kind of community Reddit wants around. Everyone becomes a goddamn lawyer when this sort of thing happens. Reddit is not Japan - that sort of content is just not culturally appropriate.
The slippery-slopists are having a field day, too. Sigh.
They came for /r/fatpeoplehate and I said nothing, because I am not a hatemonger.
They came for /r/coontown, and I said nothing, because I am not a racist.
They came for /r/lolicon, and I said nothing because I am not a pedophile.
...then they came for /r/AdviceAnimals...
...then they came for /r/AdviceAnimals...
still not seeing a downside here
I think my favorite attack on this so far has been the guy saying banning CP and loli was "just policing badthink".
Badthink.
At the very least it should be "ungoodthink". Somebody needs to brush up on their Newspeak.
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