Let's talk about Bloodborne, difficulty, and accessibility

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Would optional difficulty tweaks for newer players, or for players looking to simply experience the world and lore, be a welcome change to Dark Souls/Bloodborne-style games, or would they fundamentally undermine the ethos of that series? What if those options were disabled by default or could be universally disabled before the game was started?

I'm sure those tweaks would be a welcome change for some. The question is whether that "some" would translate into enough dollars to make it worth the developer's time. I very highly doubt that is the case. IMO, they would probably have a better chance at selling more games by saying, "now even more difficult!" than saying, "now with an even less difficult option!"

I also, unsurprisingly, take issue with this recent fad of calling difficult games inaccessible. They're not inaccessible, they're just not in your desired market.

Edit because English is tuff.

I love that this thread has been created! I don't have time for the post I want to make right now, but tagging for later. I think there is a very interesting and healthy discussion to be had on this topic. Thanks Clocky!

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Would optional difficulty tweaks for newer players, or for players looking to simply experience the world and lore, be a welcome change to Dark Souls/Bloodborne-style games, or would they fundamentally undermine the ethos of that series? What if those options were disabled by default or could be universally disabled before the game was started?

Players in general are scared of difficulty options, because other people might actually use them and that somehow effects their own experience/sense of self worth somehow, and someone else using an optional thing that makes the game easier is a personal affront to everyone who isn't playing the game "right".

Which is silly, for a wide variety of reasons.

But it's the view of a lot of players, especially the large, very vocal, minority of people who live on MMO forums. So that perception becomes the reality, because those people seem to enjoy patching drywall. Probably because they've never experienced the content, and likely never will.

Which is also silly. I don't enjoy patching drywall. I would rather spend the time, effort, and money doing anything else.

I'm all for Tourist Mode implementation in game design.

We've already go Difficulty selection in most titles, but I'd take it a step further and allow accessibility to players who would like to experience a game with major assists for systems they're simply not interested in learning or mastering.

A couple titles that come immediately to mind are XCOM and Europa Universalis/Crusader Kings. For the former, I have absolutely no interest in base management or the idea of killing my game save half-way through a campaign if nations drop support. I'd like to have that management aspect automated so I can enjoy boots-on-the-ground strategy gameplay with the maps.

For Paradox titles, I'd enjoy some AI assistance with a variety of game systems until I come online with how everything works together. I imagine boxes that I could toggle on and off as seen in Simulation Racers like Forza, where I'd toggle assists off as I got better with the game to the point where I was racing with zero assists. Allowing me to get there in my own time, turning the assists off one by one. I'd like to see something like that with the Paradox games. Seems like it would make total assimilation to the game world far easier to learn and digest, to the point where I'd eventually be flying solo with all the assists turned off.

Aaron D. wrote:

For Paradox titles, I'd enjoy some AI assistance with a variety of game systems until I come online with how everything works together. I imagine boxes that I could toggle on and off as seen in Simulation Racers like Forza, where I'd toggle assists off as I got better with the game to the point where I was racing with zero assists. Allowing me to get there in my own time, turning the assists off one by one. I'd like to see something like that with the Paradox games. Seems like it would make total assimilation to the game world far easier to learn and digest, to the point where I'd eventually be flying solo with all the assists turned off.

The main problem with Paradox titles generally isn't all the systems. It's the way that the systems are exposed to the user. Most of the learning curve for CK2 isn't really figuring out when you want to murder your 3rd cousin on your sister's husband's uncle's side, it's finding the specific set of commands you need to do to start the stabbing.

EU4 had few hugely radical changes from the traditional Paradox grand strategy formula in terms of pure mechanics that made it easier to play(trade and the monarch point system). The major change in accessibility was simply adding a "Deal with it" button to the UI panels. In previous games, you had to find information in one place, then you had to remember what you needed to do on a totally different panel to deal with the problem. That's the simplest thing you can ask for, and it had a tremendous effect on playability. I bounced hard off of EU3 because of how opaque a lot of things were in the UI. EU4's UI, while not hugely different from EU3, just had the extra buttons.

I'll just repost what I had said in the bloodborne thread where this discussion seemed to be taking place.

"I have not played bloodborne but have played the other 3 titles, and for me giving a difficulty slider for example would lessen my enjoyment of the game.

For me the series has always been a water cooler game, something I enjoy discovering and discussing with other people. There are many environmental secrets and puzzles to figure out, each enemy encounter is almost puzzle like. If the difficulty could be modified like a slider this would take away the "risk" of trying something new, there is no punishment for thinking outside of the box and failing. It fosters discussion and strategy that might be missed or easily discovered by making it easier.

If someone can take away the challenge or punishment for testing things in game, the content and secrets would be drained out in days. I believe that because there is a risk reward system in place for testing new paths or tricks it actually slows down progress and therefore lengthen the discussion.

I could point out examples in the past games where this comes into play, but I'm posting from my phone so I will end this here."

I'll also just say in a way these games are very similar to an mmo and Pvp driven to some extent. I can surely imagine design choices that would disallow or fragment the people who play on difficulties that aren't the default, I just think it takes away one of the more interesting aspects of this series.

Difficulty seems so core to this game, I love the idea of fighting games but I have never been able to play them would giving me options to pull off combos with a single button push destroy what makes those games so interesting for me and other people?

I'm not saying a game can't exist like this series that does have sliders or tourist mode, for me at that point it's just no longer what makes it fundamentally a souls game.

Edited--sorry posting from my phone this post is a mess!!

I'll also just say the way these games are very similar to an mmo and Pvp driven to some extent. I can surely imagine design choices that would disallow or fragment the people who play on difficulties that aren't the default, I just think it takes away one of the more interesting aspects of this series.

Pretty much every modern MMO has difficulty settings that are user controlled.

The problem of accessibility as a concept is that it pre-assumes that all games are for everyone.

And they're not.

Doesn't matter how accessible you make Pickleball Manager 2014, I'm not playing the damn thing.

Maybe "difficult" games aren't your thing. The solution there is not to make Bloodborne easier, it's for you to go find one of the many, many other games that are your thing.

Jonman wrote:

The problem of accessibility as a concept is that it pre-assumes that all games are for everyone.

And they're not.

Doesn't matter how accessible you make Pickleball Manager 2014, I'm not playing the damn thing.

Maybe "difficult" games aren't your thing. The solution there is not to make Bloodborne easier, it's for you to go find one of the many, many other games that are your thing.

That's just goddamn crazy talk.

cube wrote:
I'll also just say the way these games are very similar to an mmo and Pvp driven to some extent. I can surely imagine design choices that would disallow or fragment the people who play on difficulties that aren't the default, I just think it takes away one of the more interesting aspects of this series.

Pretty much every modern MMO has difficulty settings that are user controlled.

I don't play a lot of MMO's but how do they handle Pvp? The item structure is set up in such a way in the game better weapons are reward through the environmental exploration or boss battles. If I can plop my game down to easy and power to the best weapon at a low soul level, I could bump it back up and destroy players that have not done that.

The way online is handled in this does somewhat bring out the worst in people (I personally loves this atmosphere of hostility) people would do this to ruin other people's progress.

It just seems like a lot of the people that want the game to be easier are almost asking for another game. These are core concepts that have been with the game since demons souls, the online remains relatively unchanged (I know there have been balances to soul levels and other things).

I'd love to try Bloodborne but I've reached a point where I don't really enjoy being challenged all that much. I'll never play a game, "because it's hard," and that means I'll probably never play Bloodborne.

If only there were some sort of easter egg we could use, like a series of keypresses that gave us infinite health and ammo. A mode such as that would make us nigh unto gods in these digital realms... I know, I know, it's a silly idea.

Rave wrote:
cube wrote:
I'll also just say the way these games are very similar to an mmo and Pvp driven to some extent. I can surely imagine design choices that would disallow or fragment the people who play on difficulties that aren't the default, I just think it takes away one of the more interesting aspects of this series.

Pretty much every modern MMO has difficulty settings that are user controlled.

I don't play a lot of MMO's but how do they handle Pvp? The item structure is set up in such a way in the game better weapons are reward through the environmental exploration or boss battles. If I can plop my game down to easy and power to the best weapon at a low soul level, I could bump it back up and destroy players that have not done that.

Most MMO's actively try to balance out player power(by level boosting, providing baseline stats, etc.) in instanced PvP. Player skill and coordination tends to matter much more than gear. And when you're looking at the top level PvP, everyone's generally in the same gear and specs, so it's not really an issue at all.

Bloodborne isn't hard if you move through the levels at a methodical fearless pace. The biggest issue I see people having is that when facing off with an enemy, the player backs off or dodges away. Don't do that, charge in, dodge toward your enemy, stop being a mamby pamby hunter and stop worrying about dying.

Should Cormac McCarthy include a pared down version of Blood Meridian for people who want the story but find the text impenetrable? And would that still be Blood Meridian? With certain artistic endeavors, you can't separate the form from the expression.

There other games you can play if you don't like what Bloodborne is doing, just like there are other books to read and movies to watch. On the other hand, do you really think this series would have gotten nearly the attention, accolades and water cooler talk it has if you could slide the difficulty down? Part of the draw of the game is that everyone is facing the same odds, and those odds inform every single element of the game design. That is what separates it from all these other games that have a "nightmare" setting on a slider.

People talk about a "right" way to play things with some disdain, and that is understandable--You can play a game however you want within the context of the tools and options that are available to you. If you want to sit in the Hunter's Dream and do fist pumps for 40 hours, then that's the "right" way to play for you. However, wishing you could beat Bloodborne by sailing through Yarhnam on a jetpack and dropping napalm on the werewolves isn't right or wrong--it just isn't an option within the toolset the developers have given to you, and in this case that choice of tools is very deliberate in creating a specific experience.

Rave wrote:
cube wrote:
I'll also just say the way these games are very similar to an mmo and Pvp driven to some extent. I can surely imagine design choices that would disallow or fragment the people who play on difficulties that aren't the default, I just think it takes away one of the more interesting aspects of this series.

Pretty much every modern MMO has difficulty settings that are user controlled.

I don't play a lot of MMO's but how do they handle Pvp? The item structure is set up in such a way in the game better weapons are reward through the environmental exploration or boss battles. If I can plop my game down to easy and power to the best weapon at a low soul level, I could bump it back up and destroy players that have not done that.

The way online is handled in this does somewhat bring out the worst in people (I personally loves this atmosphere of hostility) people would do this to ruin other people's progress.

It just seems like a lot of the people that want the game to be easier are almost asking for another game. These are core concepts that have been with the game since demons souls, the online remains relatively unchanged (I know there have been balances to soul levels and other things).

I'm not an expert and even I can figure out a technical solution to just about any issue a difficulty slider might have to the "core" experience for those that did not want to experience the game any differently than how the designers intended. I hate to say this but most of the arguments "against" this sound more like elitism.

Warriorpoet897 wrote:

There other games you can play if you don't like what Bloodborne is doing, just like there are other books to read and movies to watch. On the other hand, do you really think this series would have gotten nearly the attention, accolades and water cooler talk it has if you could slide the difficulty down? Part of the draw of the game is that everyone is facing the same odds, and those odds inform every single element of the game design. That is what separates it from all these other games that have a "nightmare" setting on a slider.

In a single player game, what does anyone else's experience have to do with yours? Even with the shared experience that's the notes and multiplayer(ish), how does someone else's difficulty choice have any effect on your own?

You say that you can play a game however you want... so why is difficulty not in that context?

Warriorpoet897 wrote:

in this case that choice of tools is very deliberate in creating a specific experience.

I think this is the crux of the matter. In Bloodborne's case, the difficulty itself is a core part of the game design, and has been tuned to be just this way and have an affect on the player. This certainly isn't true of every game, but in this case asking for a difficulty slider is simply asking for a different game entirely.

Warriorpoet897 wrote:

That is what separates it from all these other games that have a "nightmare" setting on a slider.

Like the difference between a dish designed from inception to be a certain level of spicyness balanced against all the other ingredients, as opposed to just dumping hot sauce on something?

Maybe "difficult" games aren't your thing. The solution there is not to make Bloodborne easier, it's for you to go find one of the many, many other games that are your thing.

So if the style, the characters, environment appeal to you but the difficulty does not, then the game isn't for you?

I mean we aren't talking about a sim or europa universalis style tactical game. We are talking about an action/adventure/rpg. These games were created to be accessible if not that being core to their definition. And inaccessible action rpg sounds like a oxymoron.

I don't think I'd have a problem with a difficult slider in Souls (or any other game) if they made it clear that the game was designed from the ground up to be played at the hardest setting. I get a little annoyed at games that add difficulty by just increasing enemy hit points, lowering player health, or weakening your attacks, as those things feel arbitrary. If I know the game was designed to be played at the hardest setting, then I feel assured that all of the mechanics and other design choices are optimized for that difficulty level, and that the game isn't taking cheap shots at me as a substitute for increase difficulty.

Rave wrote:

Gear and characters also don't scale the same as an mmo, it's skill and build based. You can come up with creative and unique builds that play differently from everything else. Applying an mmo scaling model would break this.

There are levels. You upgrade your gear. Which also has levels. So your character absolutely scales. And your gear scales.

This isn't Monster Hunter, where everything you just said is true.

fangblackbone wrote:
Maybe "difficult" games aren't your thing. The solution there is not to make Bloodborne easier, it's for you to go find one of the many, many other games that are your thing.

So if the style, the characters, environment appeal to you but the difficulty does not, then the game isn't for you?

I mean we aren't talking about a sim or europa universalis style tactical game. We are talking about an action/adventure/rpg. These games were created to be accessible if not that being core to their definition. And inaccessible action rpg sounds like a oxymoron.

That's like saying "Infinite Jest is fiction, therefore meant to be accessible.
It's not like its non-fiction!

An inaccessible fiction story sounds like an oxymoron. "

TheGameguru wrote:

I'm not an expert and even I can figure out a technical solution to just about any issue a difficulty slider might have to the "core" experience for those that did not want to experience the game any differently than how the designers intended. I hate to say this but most of the arguments "against" this sound more like elitism.

The rest of us are talking on the pros and cons of this, you continue to make judgments about the opinions of people that don't agree with you.

cube wrote:

In a single player game, what does anyone else's experience have to do with yours? Even with the shared experience that's the notes and multiplayer(ish), how does someone else's difficulty choice have any effect on your own?

I said that was part of the draw. The effects of the design choices affect you just as much in other ways in single player.

cube wrote:

You say that you can play a game however you want... so why is difficulty not in that context?

I said You can play however you want within the context of the toolset the developers give you. See my jetpack comment.

cheeze_pavilion wrote:
Warriorpoet897 wrote:

That is what separates it from all these other games that have a "nightmare" setting on a slider.

Like the difference between a dish designed from inception to be a certain level of spicyness balanced against all the other ingredients, as opposed to just dumping hot sauce on something?

Great. Now I'm hungry.

Thegameguru I never said it couldn't be done, in fact I said the opposite. I can easily see how it could be done. My question (which is why I compared to a fighting game) is why? It is changing what is core to the series, what makes it unique.
Why not go at skyrim or any other fantasy rpg if that's what people are looking for?

Difficulty, unique multilayer, abstract and confusing items. They all play into the lore and world building significantly.

To say the game is a single player game is selling it a bit short, the game has been crafted with multiplayer at the forefront. It can be played offline but it's lacking (they even added invasions so offline players still have it happen, there is an offline only invasion that makes fun of offline players calling them cowards essentially). Even shooters can be played with bots but it's an experience that is lacking.

Gear and characters also don't scale the same as an mmo, it's skill and build based. You can come up with creative and unique builds that play differently from everything else. Applying an mmo scaling model would break this.

I'm not trying to be elitist I just agree with the sentiment that not every game has to be for everyone. Design by committee is the worst.

Warriorpoet897 wrote:
cheeze_pavilion wrote:
Warriorpoet897 wrote:

That is what separates it from all these other games that have a "nightmare" setting on a slider.

Like the difference between a dish designed from inception to be a certain level of spicyness balanced against all the other ingredients, as opposed to just dumping hot sauce on something?

Great. Now I'm hungry.

I feel like people are confused why the meat lovers pizza doesn't have a vegan option.

That's like saying "Infinite Jest is fiction, therefore meant to be accessible.
It's not like its non-fiction!

No, fiction wasn't by its definition meant to be accessible. Or at least there are many other differences between fiction and non fiction. Fiction can be more accessible by creating allegories for taboo or too complex topics. Or they can stretch reality to expand perceptions/tropes. Or fiction can lampoon or make something serious funny or something funny serious.

Action rpg's are different from rpgs because they reduced the scale and the timing so that you didn't have to dedication hours/days/weeks to get the outcome of a single battle. Hence they are more accessible at their core.

Warriorpoet897 wrote:
cube wrote:

In a single player game, what does anyone else's experience have to do with yours? Even with the shared experience that's the notes and multiplayer(ish), how does someone else's difficulty choice have any effect on your own?

I said that was part of the draw. The effects of the design choices affect you just as much in other ways in single player.

So if someone else turned on the mode to do twice as much damage for their game(which has no effect on yours), your experience is cheapened? How does someone else's choice effect yours?

Warriorpoet897 wrote:
cube wrote:

You say that you can play a game however you want... so why is difficulty not in that context?

I said You can play however you want within the context of the toolset the developers give you. See my jetpack comment.

You're arguing against the developers adding a difficulty setting. Which would be a part of their toolset. I'm not even going to respond to the jetpack comment, because it's so far outside the scope of this discussion that it's laughable(now, if you want to start a DLC thread, go ahead, it would be perfect there).

I feel like people are confused why the meat lovers pizza doesn't have a vegan option.

That would be more profound if there actually was a vegan option for Bloodborne.

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