Google is about to walk into the Republican chainsaw...

LarryC wrote:

Even when speaking verbally, I do not find sarcasm terribly clever.

Sarcasm is one of the tools of satire, which is a very relevant technique of argument or comedy. That it is not to your tastes is irrelevant.

Kurrelgyre wrote:
LarryC wrote:

Even when speaking verbally, I do not find sarcasm terribly clever.

Sarcasm is one of the tools of satire, which is a very relevant technique of argument or comedy. That it is not to your tastes is irrelevant.

It is not, however, a good technique for having a friendly conversation unless you know the other person will laugh along with you. If your sarcasm will sting the other person you can't then go on to claim it's just a friendly conversation.

Satire is a form of attack. That can be good comedy, but I suggest only being sarcastic with your partner if you intentionally want to live in a bad relationship.

A lot of sarcasm is pretty neutral.

A: Our cars are covered in snow.
B: Great, I'm really looking forward to digging that out.

It isn't an attack on anything in particular. A complaint, sure.

From Hell's heart Demyx stabs at me.

If it's not a funny attack, it just falls back to being unnecessarily obscure. Coulda just said, "Well, that sucks." Zero chance of miscommunication.

Don't feed the animals people.

LarryC wrote:

Filipinos do not, as a rule, use sarcasm. We think it's unnecessarily passive aggressive, and usually is also disrespectful. Therefore, it's viewed as a way to negatively impact community and family life - with virtually no upsides. Anything you want to say sarcastically can be said straightforwardly, and often at advantage. I really don't understand why so many of you seem unable to communicate without it.

And no, none of this is sarcastic. It's a mark of how broken down communications can be in the presence of sarcasm that I even have to say that.

I find this fascinating. I had forgotten that whatever is true is also untrue somewhere else. I don't actually have anything useful to contribute here. Just, y'know, thanks for that.

Zudz, our Filipino sample size for this study, however, is exactly one. So Larry saying Filipino's don't use sarcasm could just as easily be just Larry doesn't use sarcasm, right?

http://liveinthephilippines.com/content/filipino-humor/

"Filipinos do not use sarcasm or irony in their humor. Americans (and probably Brits) use a lot of sarcasm and irony, and it is not understood or well received here. When we make comments like, “Oh, right! I’d love that!” when we mean the exact opposite, it doesn’t fly. Or when we say of a bad experience, “I’d love to do that every day of the week!” it makes no sense. Sarcastic remarks come across as negative and maybe even a little mean. Jokes that have ironic or sarcastic punch lines fall flat."

Maybe you'll believe the American. I'll try to dig up a white guy. Maybe you'll find that more authoritative.

Once again, not sarcastic.

LarryC wrote:

http://liveinthephilippines.com/content/filipino-humor/

"Filipinos do not use sarcasm or irony in their humor. Americans (and probably Brits) use a lot of sarcasm and irony, and it is not understood or well received here. When we make comments like, “Oh, right! I’d love that!” when we mean the exact opposite, it doesn’t fly. Or when we say of a bad experience, “I’d love to do that every day of the week!” it makes no sense. Sarcastic remarks come across as negative and maybe even a little mean. Jokes that have ironic or sarcastic punch lines fall flat."

Maybe you'll believe the American. I'll try to dig up a white guy. Maybe you'll find that more authoritative.

Once again, not sarcastic.

Yes Larry, please find a college educated white guy to explain this to me. Preferably Christian and one who owns land.

Sarcasm is also a way to vent frustration when it is something you just have to deal with. A lot of times when you deal with all walks of life you make concessions to get along. And in a way, it is admitting that while you may not condone the behavior, you may not have all the answers and it may not be that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

Sarcasm is just another freedom they hate us for.

SallyNasty wrote:
LarryC wrote:

http://liveinthephilippines.com/content/filipino-humor/

"Filipinos do not use sarcasm or irony in their humor. Americans (and probably Brits) use a lot of sarcasm and irony, and it is not understood or well received here. When we make comments like, “Oh, right! I’d love that!” when we mean the exact opposite, it doesn’t fly. Or when we say of a bad experience, “I’d love to do that every day of the week!” it makes no sense. Sarcastic remarks come across as negative and maybe even a little mean. Jokes that have ironic or sarcastic punch lines fall flat."

Maybe you'll believe the American. I'll try to dig up a white guy. Maybe you'll find that more authoritative.

Once again, not sarcastic.

Yes Larry, please find a college educated white guy to explain this to me. Preferably Christian and one who owns land.

OK I laughed out loud at this.

LeapingGnome wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:
LarryC wrote:

http://liveinthephilippines.com/content/filipino-humor/

"Filipinos do not use sarcasm or irony in their humor. Americans (and probably Brits) use a lot of sarcasm and irony, and it is not understood or well received here. When we make comments like, “Oh, right! I’d love that!” when we mean the exact opposite, it doesn’t fly. Or when we say of a bad experience, “I’d love to do that every day of the week!” it makes no sense. Sarcastic remarks come across as negative and maybe even a little mean. Jokes that have ironic or sarcastic punch lines fall flat."

Maybe you'll believe the American. I'll try to dig up a white guy. Maybe you'll find that more authoritative.

Once again, not sarcastic.

Yes Larry, please find a college educated white guy to explain this to me. Preferably Christian and one who owns land.

OK I laughed out loud at this.

Do you often laugh at sincere and heartfelt requests?

SallyNasty wrote:
LarryC wrote:

http://liveinthephilippines.com/content/filipino-humor/

"Filipinos do not use sarcasm or irony in their humor. Americans (and probably Brits) use a lot of sarcasm and irony, and it is not understood or well received here. When we make comments like, “Oh, right! I’d love that!” when we mean the exact opposite, it doesn’t fly. Or when we say of a bad experience, “I’d love to do that every day of the week!” it makes no sense. Sarcastic remarks come across as negative and maybe even a little mean. Jokes that have ironic or sarcastic punch lines fall flat."

Maybe you'll believe the American. I'll try to dig up a white guy. Maybe you'll find that more authoritative.

Once again, not sarcastic.

Yes Larry, please find a college educated white guy to explain this to me. Preferably Christian and one who owns land.

http://www.academia.edu/2040341/Sarc...

Sarcasm isn't so prevalent in China, either, but I think that's more to do with my cultural revolution than any sense of decorum or etiquette. LarryC, in the US I think you'll generally find that people use the most pointed sarcasm mostly with trusted friends who understand the nature of the gibe. In our culture the comment Demyx uses as an example would have 0% chance of being misunderstood by another American.

I think the fact that you are constantly misunderstood here shows that it goes both ways, however--we've learned to expect sarcasm, so we often infer it in your posts. Your posts, written in earnest, are hard for us to understand, and come off as rude or mean at times, despite your constant reminders. Perhaps the best policy is not determined based on any one culture's understanding of sarcasm, but simply, when in Rome?

And before this goes much further

Yonder wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:
LarryC wrote:

http://liveinthephilippines.com/content/filipino-humor/

"Filipinos do not use sarcasm or irony in their humor. Americans (and probably Brits) use a lot of sarcasm and irony, and it is not understood or well received here. When we make comments like, “Oh, right! I’d love that!” when we mean the exact opposite, it doesn’t fly. Or when we say of a bad experience, “I’d love to do that every day of the week!” it makes no sense. Sarcastic remarks come across as negative and maybe even a little mean. Jokes that have ironic or sarcastic punch lines fall flat."

Maybe you'll believe the American. I'll try to dig up a white guy. Maybe you'll find that more authoritative.

Once again, not sarcastic.

Yes Larry, please find a college educated white guy to explain this to me. Preferably Christian and one who owns land.

OK I laughed out loud at this.

Do you often laugh at sincere and heartfelt requests?

This is my favourite forum exchange in ages. "Let's talk about sarcasm and the non-use of it with comments that could be taken either way."

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

This is my favourite forum exchange in ages. "Let's talk about sarcasm and the non-use of it with comments that could be taken either way." :lol:

Oh, me too. This was a much needed distraction from a boring work call.

Tanglebones wrote:

Yes Larry, please find a college educated white guy to explain this to me. Preferably Christian and one who owns land.

http://www.academia.edu/2040341/Sarc...

You promised a white guy, but the author's name is "Lablynn Yvette F. Bautista" which isn't a super common white guy name. Also, the paper starts out "We Filipinos love jokes." which is another hint that the author may not actually be a white guy.

Hilariously though, Lablynn continues on to say

We laugh at jokes even if it is full of sarcasm and criticism.

Another good quote

However, it feels good to know that with our friends, we can exchange these kinds of jokes without being onion-skinned for the sake of fun

It sounds like Larry just needs to stop being so onion-skinned.

Chairman_Mao wrote:

I think the fact that you are constantly misunderstood here shows that it goes both ways, however--we've learned to expect sarcasm, so we often infer it in your posts. Your posts, written in earnest, are hard for us to understand, and come off as rude or mean at times, despite your constant reminders.

Yonder wrote:

Another good quote

However, it feels good to know that with our friends, we can exchange these kinds of jokes without being onion-skinned for the sake of fun

It sounds like Larry just needs to stop being so onion-skinned.

This I think is the issue: when (hypothetical) I use sarcasm and others complain, they're onion-skinned; when other people use sarcasm against me, I'm complaining because they're being mean and rude. We expect it, we just act as if that goose sauce isn't good enough for ganders.

Yonder wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Yes Larry, please find a college educated white guy to explain this to me. Preferably Christian and one who owns land.

http://www.academia.edu/2040341/Sarc...

You promised a white guy, but the author's name is "Lablynn Yvette F. Bautista" which isn't a super common white guy name. Also, the paper starts out "We Filipinos love jokes." which is another hint that the author may not actually be a white guy.

Hilariously though, Lablynn continues on to say

We laugh at jokes even if it is full of sarcasm and criticism.

Another good quote

However, it feels good to know that with our friends, we can exchange these kinds of jokes without being onion-skinned for the sake of fun

It sounds like Larry just needs to stop being so onion-skinned.

I don't think he needs to change--it's more just that we all need to empathize with whom we're speaking. If LarryC finds sarcasm inappropriate, I would try to stop using it when speaking to him. And I would expect that to go both ways.

Back to Google and Republicans...
This article's from January, but I think it's relevant--we all may appreciate Google's effort to deliver more trustworthy search results, but in terms of putting its money where its mouth is, it's balancing out its support of Democrat and Republican politicians, even to the point of supporting those who hold positions Google has traditionally been against--people who are anti-gay marriage and climate change deniers. This sort of pragmatism makes sense, I suppose, but it also makes me question how far they would go to keep both parties happy rather than just supporting causes its employees support.

Keep in mind that sarcasm is not a synonym for mean-ness, and not being sarcastic isn't a synonym for nice-ness.

For example, if Larry had been sarcastic when he said this:

LarryC wrote:

Maybe you'll believe the American. I'll try to dig up a white guy. Maybe you'll find that more authoritative.

It would have been a humorous statement on cultural biases and infantilization of minorities. Simultaneously a combination of a joke on general tendencies that no one in the conversation actually has, and a cushioned warning that just maybe that is actually happening to the other party. The vagary keeps it from being accusatory. There is no offense intended because the statement doesn't need bad behavior on the part of the other party to be relevant.

When Larry clarified that he wasn't being sarcastic, that recalibrated the statement to say "SallyNasty, this isn't a joke, I think there is a really good chance that you are so hugely racist that anything that comes from a non-white guy is meaningless to you. This is obviously a condition that you can't recover from, so I'm going to go out of my way to see if I can possibly support you with this disability of yours."

That's not "nicer" than sarcasm, not by a long shot.

It's especially barbed and mean when you see that the statement that led to this was basically Sally pointing out that "anecdotes aren't data", and usually Larry is super happy to tell you eleventeen million times about how you're using anecdotes and being a bad scientist etc etc etc.

Yonder wrote:

Keep in mind that sarcasm is not a synonym for mean-ness, and not being sarcastic isn't a synonym for nice-ness.

For example, if Larry had been sarcastic when he said this:

LarryC wrote:

Maybe you'll believe the American. I'll try to dig up a white guy. Maybe you'll find that more authoritative.

It would have been a humorous statement on cultural biases and infantilization of minorities. Simultaneously a combination of a joke on general tendencies that no one in the conversation actually has, and a cushioned warning that just maybe that is actually happening to the other party. The vagary keeps it from being accusatory. There is no offense intended because the statement doesn't need bad behavior on the part of the other party to be relevant.

When Larry clarified that he wasn't being sarcastic, that recalibrated the statement to say "SallyNasty, this isn't a joke, I think there is a really good chance that you are so hugely racist that anything that comes from a non-white guy is meaningless to you. This is obviously a condition that you can't recover from, so I'm going to go out of my way to see if I can possibly support you with this disability of yours."

That's not "nicer" than sarcasm, not by a long shot.

It's especially barbed and mean when you see that the statement that led to this was basically Sally pointing out that "anecdotes aren't data", and usually Larry is super happy to tell you eleventeen million times about how you're using anecdotes and being a bad scientist etc etc etc.

I had similar thoughts. Yonder, get out of my head!

somewhat ironic that two of the most sarcastic people I know are Filipino.

Granted American Filipino's...though their parents were not.

Yonder wrote:

Keep in mind that sarcasm is not a synonym for mean-ness, and not being sarcastic isn't a synonym for nice-ness.

I thought this whole post was very well-written.

Nomad wrote:
Yonder wrote:

Keep in mind that sarcasm is not a synonym for mean-ness, and not being sarcastic isn't a synonym for nice-ness.

For example, if Larry had been sarcastic when he said this:

LarryC wrote:

Maybe you'll believe the American. I'll try to dig up a white guy. Maybe you'll find that more authoritative.

It would have been a humorous statement on cultural biases and infantilization of minorities. Simultaneously a combination of a joke on general tendencies that no one in the conversation actually has, and a cushioned warning that just maybe that is actually happening to the other party. The vagary keeps it from being accusatory. There is no offense intended because the statement doesn't need bad behavior on the part of the other party to be relevant.

When Larry clarified that he wasn't being sarcastic, that recalibrated the statement to say "SallyNasty, this isn't a joke, I think there is a really good chance that you are so hugely racist that anything that comes from a non-white guy is meaningless to you. This is obviously a condition that you can't recover from, so I'm going to go out of my way to see if I can possibly support you with this disability of yours."

That's not "nicer" than sarcasm, not by a long shot.

It's especially barbed and mean when you see that the statement that led to this was basically Sally pointing out that "anecdotes aren't data", and usually Larry is super happy to tell you eleventeen million times about how you're using anecdotes and being a bad scientist etc etc etc.

I had similar thoughts. Yonder, get out of my head! :)

That's a pretty ridiculous and hyperbolic interpretation.

Wow, you guys are gonna get this thread shut down too? Please don't. I want to be able to track how my prediction turns out.