SOE has been sold off, renamed Daybreak

Interesting news, it appears Sony sold off SOE. It's now been renamed Daybreak studios. Supposedly nothing will change , but time will tell I suppose:

http://www.polygon.com/2015/2/2/7963...

Sounds like the parent company is an investment firm. So be warned the honeymoon could only last so long as Daybreak isn't a too good or too poor investment.

Things like this will give an awesome initial push to the development of H1Z1, PS2, EQN and EQL but the long term risks are that numbers and charts and projections could kill those games when they would have survived/thrived under a games or media parent company. (or Sony even)

What?! Bodes poorly long term. I sense a terrible f2p monetization incoming. Yes, even more than now...

Oh man, this is bad news, IMO.

SOE has long been one of the most stable houses in the MMO space, this is a disappointing day for me.

There's some rumors that they may now bring some of the properties that are releasing on the PS4, to Xbox One as well now.

Came to post in the Game Industry thread, but this works too.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...
I am, not excited. Of course, there's been, a bit of a higher drain on resources than I would have thought given the ps4 work going on.
So the question is this, is this because SOE is doing poorly or is Sony doing really poorly? It's hard to imagine all this..SOE is a fairly large part of Sony's games, or so I thought.
Well, let's all go check out Line of Defense if they bust!

Now to cross-post in the Planetside 2 thread!

RolandofGilead wrote:

Came to post in the Game Industry thread, but this works too.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...
I am, not excited. Of course, there's been, a bit of a higher drain on resources than I would have thought given the ps4 work going on.
So the question is this, is this because SOE is doing poorly or is Sony doing really poorly? It's hard to imagine all this..SOE is a fairly large part of Sony's games, or so I thought.
Well, let's all go check out Line of Defense if they bust!

Now to cross-post in the Planetside 2 thread!

Lots of forum posters that are clueless how PE shops really work. This can be either a boon or a bust but its not really the PE shop that will determine that. Free of being either a drain on a larger corporate parent OR potentially worth more as a standalone is largely dependent on Daybreak. Now they will have the opportunity to shine on their own and deserve the level of capital investment that ensures their success. Provided of course they are producing something the consumer wants and can show a measure of profit on the capital investment. Pretty much nobody just pours money into a losing investment.. what sense would that make?

Fear that the PE shop will shut it down quickly to make a quick profit makes zero sense.. how would that exactly work? If you shut something down why would anyone buy it? You could see a quick sale if there is a quick boost in operating cash flow that proves attractive to a different buyer that has a potentially longer term plan for the products but I can't see a shutdown unless of course the products don't return any profit.

I think this sale speaks more to how Sony is doing overall than it says about SOE. My understanding is that SOE has always been modestly but not spectacularly profitable. Given the overall health of Sony Corp(bad is my understanding) it makes sense for them to unload SOE, making a profit and narrowing their business focus some. My take anyway.

Agent 86 wrote:

I think this sale speaks more to how Sony is doing overall than it says about SOE. My understanding is that SOE has always been modestly but not spectacularly profitable. Given the overall health of Sony Corp(bad is my understanding) it makes sense for them to unload SOE, making a profit and narrowing their business focus some. My take anyway.

Would agree with that assessment.. SOE has always been run pretty well from a cost perspective but it will be interesting to see if this PE shop has some aspirations to make this into a more profitable venture since "modest" doesn't really work for most PE shops.

That is the concern. That they would try to push Daybreak into a too big for their britches situation and either burn the honeymoon capital or kill the studio.

fangblackbone wrote:

That is the concern. That they would try to push Daybreak into a too big for their britches situation and either burn the honeymoon capital or kill the studio.

Yeah I'm scratching my head here.. none of their existing IP's exactly scream "big money" to me.. maybe this H1Z1 game?

I think you are on the right track GG, but perhaps Landmark is still pulling a lot of interest? I know Landmark flew out of the gates during the SOE event but it seems to me that zeal has tapered off. If it hasn't, then it could be looked at with the same eyes as a Minecraft cash cow. (...which would be a mistake in my eyes. Landmark is nowhere near as accessible as Minecraft)

TheGameguru wrote:
fangblackbone wrote:

That is the concern. That they would try to push Daybreak into a too big for their britches situation and either burn the honeymoon capital or kill the studio.

Yeah I'm scratching my head here.. none of their existing IP's exactly scream "big money" to me.. maybe this H1Z1 game?

Oh boy do I hope that's not it. Either it goes poorly and it all gets thrown out or it goes well and there's another f*cking zombie game, well, actually that could be okay, it could fund development for PS2 and DCUO (cause technically I do have a character on there), or it could take away funds for PS2.

Landmark and more importantly EQN have the potential to be huge, but if they're going to be hamstrung by finances we may never see EQN or if we do it'll be in a fashion that wont live up to the hype.

Big Layoffs at Daybreak today. A huge percentage of the EQ2 staff is gone as well as producer Dave Georgeson.

My wife and I play EQ2 like once a week, given this news I wonder how much longer that is going to last.

Wow! Holy crap really?
Dave Georgeson? Really?

How do they expect to have any good will or positive hopes for future products at Daybreak at all?

I mean I hate to be the sky is falling type of guy but that is a big blow.

Of course you guys already got this info:) I just got home and was reading up on today's news.

Really sad. H1Z1 is looking more and more like it was just thrown out the door in it's sad state for a quick cash grab. Today we already know they lost two guys from the H1Z1 team and who knows how many more along with the news about Dave from the EQ front.

My allaccess is now officlaly cancelled after reading this news, just got done doin that,...i've lost confidence in the future of the everquest games and H1Z1 for now.

This is lookin to me, from the disparity between their constant PR bullsh*t and what's actually happening with layoffs/firings that this is the worst of mad or stupid capitalism going on here. Between the just had cash grab of H1Z1 initial sales and the layoffs now right after the purchase of so many major names already known today including members of the H1Z1 team needed now more than ever to bring H1Z1 up to par since it's been released with it's early access promises....zero confidence in this new company. Daybreak can go break wind...and sit in it's own stench after this.

Serious "what the f*ck are they thinking" moment here to me.

I was back into EQ1 and EQ2 a bit over the last 4 months along with a very reluctant H1Z1 puchase since i had several friends who bought all the hype and wanted me in there....but i'm just putting it down and goin ahead and movin on to greener pastures now.

Was about to post the news as well. It's sad to me , Everquest was responsible for my love of online gaming. Heck I have some lifelong friends that I met in that game. Hope they aren't totally sinking , but it doesn't look good

From what I'm reading it looks like they primarily gutted the EQ1&2 folks. Most other games seem to have come out mostly unscathed.

In case there was any doubt that the people in charge are pretty clueless when it comes to who their customers are, I'll paste the response that Daybreak sent to Kotaku:

CluelessPRHack wrote:

As part of a strategic decision to rationalize the business, Daybreak Game Company announced today that it will eliminate positions in both its San Diego and Austin studios. This alignment of resources better positions the newly independent studio for future growth opportunities and developments, including delivering on its legacy of making top online games and establishing a solid foundation for future multi-platform success. These reductions will not affect the operation of current games and the company will continue on its mission to partner with its player community to drive the future and push the boundaries of online gaming.

Yah I saw that. Note the opportune choice of word "operation". Except that with mmo's operation requires continued development so much more than other types of games. The phrase "if you are standing still you are losing ground" applies so much more to mmo's. Maintenance mode equals death.

PR using the word "rationalize" as a euphemism for laying people off always rubs me the wrong way. This won't end well.

All I can say is:

It's a puzzling development. Maybe they are prepping the titles for sale? Everquest has to be worth a lot of money as a brand...surely NCSoft, or another MMO developer, would love to take that over.

The direction of development of Everquest Next would seem to fit a company like NCSoft well.

That said, i was primarily into SoE these days for the previous games. My interest in EQNext has been cautious as the art direction seems to be moving more towards NCSoft's way. That's a direction that doesn't appeal to me much. I like the Everquest and Everquest 2 art styles a lot.

I also like the games since they removed the most punishing aspects of them and added the freakishly cool NPC companions to allow solo progression to quite a decent point and experiencing of content up to a great point with a small group or duo of players.

The gutting of the EQ1/2 teams thus really hits me where it hurts along with many many thousands of others who regularly play EQ1 and EQ2. It was the continued development of those games that made them retain greatness even today. Like someone said above, if that gets stale and just "maintain operation" then poof goes the community within about 8-9 months as the dedicated people will have no future expansions to look foward to ( or at least not of the same quality ).

It's really a damn shame but it feels like the new ownership has no interest in steady long term profits and investment to future rewards, they want money NOW. Feels like one of the darker side capital management companies to me that has a tendency to destroy the golden goose for quicker profits rather than invest in improving it's egg laying capability down the road while making smaller profits in the near term.

My bet is they're looking firmly at EQNext and Landmark right now and thinking they want their shot at unseating WoW by going multiplatform PS4 and Xbox1 with EQNext as fast as possible and that we'll simultaniously see the cash shops start selling power like crazy in PS2, H1Z1, and landmark to drive cash profits as high as possible while destroying those brands credibility on the way to a multi platform EQNext release as a $15 a month MMO they hope to compete with WoW with.

I could be totally wrong, but that's what i see here, and that's why i believe top managers of the direction of EQnext had to go. Because they're going to butcher those guy's vision.

The most disturbing part of what's happened is all we as gamer's know is that a company we loved is being gutted and we can't trust a damn word of Daybreak's PR bullsh*t because they're already basically proven liars and full of sh*t.

sh*t like this really gives capital management companies a bad name, because many of them DONT operate like this. Many of them buy companies and actually take them and built something bigger and cooler out of them and bring new opportunity and investment to the table.

In this case, i think we can all see their actions speaking louder than their words by far that they're not interested in being the nurturing, growing, kind of ownership.

Fuzzballx wrote:

The direction of development of Everquest Next would seem to fit a company like NCSoft well.

That said, i was primarily into SoE these days for the previous games. My interest in EQNext has been cautious as the art direction seems to be moving more towards NCSoft's way. That's a direction that doesn't appeal to me much. I like the Everquest and Everquest 2 art styles a lot.

I also like the games since they removed the most punishing aspects of them and added the freakishly cool NPC companions to allow solo progression to quite a decent point and experiencing of content up to a great point with a small group or duo of players.

The gutting of the EQ1/2 teams thus really hits me where it hurts along with many many thousands of others who regularly play EQ1 and EQ2. It was the continued development of those games that made them retain greatness even today. Like someone said above, if that gets stale and just "maintain operation" then poof goes the community within about 8-9 months as the dedicated people will have no future expansions to look foward to ( or at least not of the same quality ).

It's really a damn shame but it feels like the new ownership has no interest in steady long term profits and investment to future rewards, they want money NOW. Feels like one of the darker side capital management companies to me that has a tendency to destroy the golden goose for quicker profits rather than invest in improving it's egg laying capability down the road while making smaller profits in the near term.

My bet is they're looking firmly at EQNext and Landmark right now and thinking they want their shot at unseating WoW by going multiplatform PS4 and Xbox1 with EQNext as fast as possible and that we'll simultaniously see the cash shops start selling power like crazy in PS2, H1Z1, and landmark to drive cash profits as high as possible while destroying those brands credibility on the way to a multi platform EQNext release as a $15 a month MMO they hope to compete with WoW with.

I could be totally wrong, but that's what i see here, and that's why i believe top managers of the direction of EQnext had to go. Because they're going to butcher those guy's vision.

The most disturbing part of what's happened is all we as gamer's know is that a company we loved is being gutted and we can't trust a damn word of Daybreak's PR bullsh*t because they're already basically proven liars and full of sh*t.

sh*t like this really gives capital management companies a bad name, because many of them DONT operate like this. Many of them buy companies and actually take them and built something bigger and cooler out of them and bring new opportunity and investment to the table.

In this case, i think we can all see their actions speaking louder than their words by far that they're not interested in being the nurturing, growing, kind of ownership.

You are making a whole lot of sweeping generalizations about future products based on layoffs that happened in the last 48 hours by a ownership group that hasn't had that much time to own the company to build that sort of negative track record you've already applied to them. Interesting.

Given EQ and EQ2's subscription numbers and player base I dont think anyone should be surprised that those products are being put on maintenance mode. It's always hard to put to pasture MMOGs that have been around a good long time since there will always be faithful fans that continue to play despite a downward trajectory in profit.

But those implications are farther reaching considering the All Access Pass. Or is that pass not available, being discontinued, or being neutered or "restructured"?

I am fully aware of the fact that I can be wrong, but gutting small profit EQ and EQ2 for the unproven H1Z1 seems like a bad business decision.

fangblackbone wrote:

But those implications are farther reaching considering the All Access Pass. Or is that pass not available, being discontinued, or being neutered or "restructured"?

I am fully aware of the fact that I can be wrong, but gutting small profit EQ and EQ2 for the unproven H1Z1 seems like a bad business decision.

Without having full access to the financials its basically a guess but the only logical reason to do it is that profits are largely flat and despite continued ROI into EQ and EQ2 (I heard that it was the EQ2 team that got hit hardest) the returns were just not being achieved. So if you look at that as an outsider it no longer makes sense to continue to invest into a product line that won't meet your internal hurdle for ROI.. it's better to take that money into a venture where you believe you will get better returns. It's not like EQ and EQ2 are suddenly going to start doubling profit. It sucks that people have to lose their jobs but at the end of the day someone is footing the bill for their salary and those people tend to not to like to lose money.

It might be that H1Z1 and EQ Next end up disasters but at this point anyone is investing in potential (and its likely anyone with money would do the same) and not something that earns you a few %.

TheGameguru wrote:
fangblackbone wrote:

But those implications are farther reaching considering the All Access Pass. Or is that pass not available, being discontinued, or being neutered or "restructured"?

I am fully aware of the fact that I can be wrong, but gutting small profit EQ and EQ2 for the unproven H1Z1 seems like a bad business decision.

Without having full access to the financials its basically a guess but the only logical reason to do it is that profits are largely flat and despite continued ROI into EQ and EQ2 (I heard that it was the EQ2 team that got hit hardest) the returns were just not being achieved. So if you look at that as an outsider it no longer makes sense to continue to invest into a product line that won't meet your internal hurdle for ROI.. it's better to take that money into a venture where you believe you will get better returns. It's not like EQ and EQ2 are suddenly going to start doubling profit. It sucks that people have to lose their jobs but at the end of the day someone is footing the bill for their salary and those people tend to not to like to lose money.

It might be that H1Z1 and EQ Next end up disasters but at this point anyone is investing in potential (and its likely anyone with money would do the same) and not something that earns you a few %.

Yeah. And it's worth pointing out that EQ and EQ2 will immediately become much more profitable, since presumably almost all of the expenditures on those products are in the form of labor. A few expensive staff out the door, and suddenly those formerly modestly profitable divisions start looking pretty kickass.

Remember, these games will continue to exist, and they're already known to have incredibly long tails thanks to rabidly loyal fans. It may take months or even years for revenues to be substantially impacted by the reduced pace of further development.

TheGameguru wrote:

It sucks that people have to lose their jobs but at the end of the day someone is footing the bill for their salary and those people tend to not to like to lose money.

Since we don't have access to their financials we don't know, but I would assume that the games weren't losing money or they would've been shuttered before now.

It annoys me when businesspeople refer to "losing money" when the accurate statement would be "making a lower profit than desired".

http://massivelyop.net/2015/02/12/fo...

Says the guy who got to keep his job...
This sort of stuff I find extremely tasteless. Like high turnover is just a natural consequence of the industry.
There is no hidden bylaw that dictates the necessity for that in any industry.