Windows 10

Malor wrote:
And with that, will they enforce an account with email in order to even use windows.

Probably the subscription version, but I imagine you'll still be able to outright buy it.

However, they *really* want you on a subscription, because it gives them all kinds of data about you, which they can then link to the specific machine you're running. This could be an advertising goldmine. Purchased copies of Windows may get quite expensive.

Also, it makes them ALOT of money. I seem to remember that Office 365 and other cloud based subscription services are super profitable for Microsoft.

My guess is that after the upgrade period on W10 expires you will be able to buy boxed copies for the normal Windows price or a Windows 365 that comes bundled with Office 365, 2-5TB of OneDrive Storage, and free upgrades to large yearly Windows updates (think OS X model).

As for them trying to get all kinds of data about people, eh, they probably already have that anyway

TheGameguru wrote:

More options are not doom and gloom

I agree that new options are potentially a good thing, if the existing option(s) is not removed. Also, "concerning" does not equal "doom and gloom".

Kamakazi010654 wrote:

My guess is that after the upgrade period on W10 expires you will be able to buy boxed copies for the normal Windows price or a Windows 365 that comes bundled with Office 365, 2-5TB of OneDrive Storage, and free upgrades to large yearly Windows updates (think OS X model).

The thing I'm concerned about is exactly what will happen at the end of that first year for anyone who chooses the free upgrade. As the saying goes, "if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

Kamakazi010654 wrote:

ALOT

IMAGE(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S8TRIo4br3I/AAAAAAAACv4/Zh7_GcMlRKo/s400/ALOT.png)

I find a good deal of similarities between those that fear Obama is going to take away their guns or implement death panels or all sorts of nonsense. When in fact they just don't like him for whatever reason. Pretty much the same with Microsoft. Despite never actually doing anything that people are afraid of or concerned many people are still talking about it despite zero if any evidence. In fact the only evidence that exists is in fact contrary to their fears (concerns). Look at Office 365 for example. Several years into the program lifetime one time purchases of individual Office licenses still exist and are priced historically the same.

It's a forgone conclusion Microsoft will offer a subscription version of their desktop operating system it's also a forgone conclusion that it will be entirely optional to purchase.

There appears to be zero conversation similar to this for Apple who in fact has become very similar to what many fear Microsoft will become. But there no discussion at all...zip. Look at the Market capitalization between the two companies and the power the currently wield relative to consumer behavior.

TheGameguru wrote:

I find a good deal of similarities between those that fear Obama is going to take away their guns or implement death panels or all sorts of nonsense. When in fact they just don't like him for whatever reason. Pretty much the same with Microsoft. Despite never actually doing anything that people are afraid of or concerned many people are still talking about it despite zero if any evidence. In fact the only evidence that exists is in fact contrary to their fears (concerns). Look at Office 365 for example. Several years into the program lifetime one time purchases of individual Office licenses still exist and are priced historically the same.

It's a forgone conclusion Microsoft will offer a subscription version of their desktop operating system it's also a forgone conclusion that it will be entirely optional to purchase.

There appears to be zero conversation similar to this for Apple who in fact has become very similar to what many fear Microsoft will become. But there no discussion at all...zip. Look at the Market capitalization between the two companies and the power the currently wield relative to consumer behavior.

Agreed 100%.

It is actually completely possible that Windows 365 has nothing to do with the operating systems licensing, maybe that is free from here on out for non-enterprise customers. Maybe instead, it is just a 365 subscription bundle similar to Office, but with more of MS's applications and services bundled in.

I will keep my concerns as they always have been. Checked MS' website. I cannot just buy Office 365. Only a subscription for 99 euros per year. If I want to buy it, I can only get Office 2013.
Using Libre Office now. Works fine as well.
Not to far fetched to think Win10 will be the latest Windows that you can buy, and the 365 will be just subscription. Something I will not go for.
So, I disagree with the thoughts that things will be just fine and time will tell

Sparhawk wrote:

I will keep my concerns as they always have been. Checked MS' website. I cannot just buy Office 365. Only a subscription for 99 euros per year. If I want to buy it, I can only get Office 2013.
Using Libre Office now. Works fine as well.
Not to far fetched to think Win10 will be the latest Windows that you can buy, and the 365 will be just subscription. Something I will not go for.
So, I disagree with the thoughts that things will be just fine and time will tell :)

Uh, Office 2013 and Office 365 are identical feature-wise, and if you get Office Professional 2013 the products included are identical too. Only difference is that Office 365 will keep getting new features added, whereas Office 2013 won't. You'd just have to buy Office 2016 or whatever it is when that comes out.

Sparhawk wrote:

I will keep my concerns as they always have been. Checked MS' website. I cannot just buy Office 365. Only a subscription for 99 euros per year. If I want to buy it, I can only get Office 2013.
Using Libre Office now. Works fine as well.
Not to far fetched to think Win10 will be the latest Windows that you can buy, and the 365 will be just subscription. Something I will not go for.
So, I disagree with the thoughts that things will be just fine and time will tell :)

/facepalm

You must have some fundamental misunderstanding here. Office 365 was born a subscription service from the beginning. Do you always expect that subscription based services to also have a one time purchase option? How would that work exactly? Office 365 offers a suite of services for a monthly or annual fee from simple email hosting to a full blown Enterprise level selection of services (Lync, Sharepoint etc.). As well options for local installs of Office, Exchange etc.

There were all sorts of fears that Office 365 would end the ability to purchase just a single lifetime copy of whatever current version of Office was available. That didn't happen and hasn't happened. In fact Office 2016 has already shown up on my Enterprise agreement for license purchase.

The thing I'm concerned about is exactly what will happen at the end of that first year for anyone who chooses the free upgrade. As the saying goes, "if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

True, but remember they did do Windows 8 upgrades for $30 when it first shipped, and then raised the price later. They try to trick you into setting up a Microsoft account when you first set up the machine, and of course you've got the walled garden Microsoft tollbooth DRM bullsh*t going on, but you can avoid those, with some effort.

I suspect that probably won't change, but my question is: in the future, how much effort will it take to avoid the stuff that's there for Microsoft's benefit, not mine?

That I did have a fundamental misunderstanding on the 365 thing. I thought they would drop fully paid for versions totally.
Leaving 2013 behind in the dust with features only for 365. So I guess not. That's good to know.

TheGameguru wrote:

/facepalm

Nice....

Double post

Chairman_Mao wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

I will keep my concerns as they always have been. Checked MS' website. I cannot just buy Office 365. Only a subscription for 99 euros per year. If I want to buy it, I can only get Office 2013.
Using Libre Office now. Works fine as well.
Not to far fetched to think Win10 will be the latest Windows that you can buy, and the 365 will be just subscription. Something I will not go for.
So, I disagree with the thoughts that things will be just fine and time will tell :)

Uh, Office 2013 and Office 365 are identical feature-wise, and if you get Office Professional 2013 the products included are identical too. Only difference is that Office 365 will keep getting new features added, whereas Office 2013 won't. You'd just have to buy Office 2016 or whatever it is when that comes out.

Yep, when my work switched over to 365 there is a link on the login website page that allows you to download the 2013 clients too.

Having recently setup a Macbook Air and a Windows 8.1 machine I would say that Apple does far more to get you to setup an "itunes" account than Microsoft does to setup a "live" account.

Edit

I will add that many Enterprise customers have been doing a "subscription" like service with Microsoft for years now.. its called Software Assurance.

TheGameguru wrote:

Having recently setup a Macbook Air and a Windows 8.1 machine I would say that Apple does far more to get you to setup an "itunes" account than Microsoft does to setup a "live" account.

Edit

I will add that many Enterprise customers have been doing a "subscription" like service with Microsoft for years now.. its called Software Assurance.

And holy crap on iOS the cloud login box never stops reappearing if you don't want to use it unless you manually disable it in settings. That is extremely off-putting to me.

Malor, maybe, who knows wrote:

They try to trick you into setting up a Microsoft account when you first set up the machine, and of course you've got the walled garden Microsoft tollbooth DRM bullsh*t going on, but you can avoid those, with some effort.

Have you actually set up an 8.1 machine? It's a bit less insidious than you portray it as.

Kurrelgyre wrote:
Malor, maybe, who knows wrote:

They try to trick you into setting up a Microsoft account when you first set up the machine, and of course you've got the walled garden Microsoft tollbooth DRM bullsh*t going on, but you can avoid those, with some effort.

Have you actually set up an 8.1 machine? It's a bit less insidious than you portray it as.

maybe, but they do try really hard to get you to connect to a MS account by kind of making it hard to see how to create a local account.

Kurrelgyre wrote:
Malor, maybe, who knows wrote:

They try to trick you into setting up a Microsoft account when you first set up the machine, and of course you've got the walled garden Microsoft tollbooth DRM bullsh*t going on, but you can avoid those, with some effort.

Have you actually set up an 8.1 machine? It's a bit less insidious than you portray it as.

Yes I have, and no it is not.

You basically have to hit 'cancel' on creating a new user, which looks like you're going to abort the entire process.... then, and only then, does Microsoft reluctantly admit you're allowed to use your computer without creating an account with them.

MeatMan wrote:
MannishBoy wrote:

Wow, their version numbers are escalating in a hurry. 7, 8, 10, 365, 14394938651348987,

Seriously though, trademarking Windows 365 is concerning, to say the least.

I disagree. I know back in the days of M$ we collectively used to worry about a "Microsoft tax", but I think it's safe to say those fears are fairly unfounded. We since been given more choices in terms of our operating system / computer. We've learned that companies like Apple can abuse their power just as much as Microsoft. If Microsoft charges an annual fee to stay up on (and actually does) bugs, viruses, etc. I don't see what the problem is. I've gotten used to paying $10 / mo for streaming TV and music. I think I'll be okay with an operating system subscription, honestly.

For those that are wondering and would like to see how exactly Microsoft tricks you into creating or using your Live account to sign into Windows 8.1 see the below link. Shows exactly the screens and steps during the initial Windows 8.1 setup.

http://www.hanselman.com/blog/HowToS...

I still find the indignity about the MS account option odd in a world where people don't bat an eye about the same thing on a smart phone. I'm more worried about the tracking device I carry all the time than my desktop.

MannishBoy wrote:

I still find the indignity about the MS account option odd in a world where people don't bat an eye about the same thing on a smart phone. I'm more worried about the tracking device I carry all the time than my desktop.

Yep, I carry the perfect, always connected, always on, tracking device with me everywhere I go.

MannishBoy wrote:

I still find the indignity about the MS account option odd in a world where people don't bat an eye about the same thing on a smart phone. I'm more worried about the tracking device I carry all the time than my desktop.

Yep, I carry the perfect, always connected, always on, tracking device with me everywhere I go.

MannishBoy wrote:

I still find the indignity about the MS account option odd in a world where people don't bat an eye about the same thing on a smart phone. I'm more worried about the tracking device I carry all the time than my desktop.

I think it's mostly that I don't keep any confidential information on my phone. I do on my home PC, so I'd rather have that device be as disconnected as possible.

If they were snooping on you when using a Microsoft Account to login (a login that, once the account has been added to the machine, works just fine when disconnected), it's equally as easy to snoop on you when you're using a local account.

DSGamer wrote:

I've gotten used to paying $10 / mo for streaming TV and music. I think I'll be okay with an operating system subscription, honestly.

And that TV-streaming and music-streaming service started out as a service, which you (and I) chose to sign up for. Windows has always been a product. I buy the product, and I can keep using that product for as long as I want. As I've already pointed out, upgrading from Win7 to Win10, absolutely free, sounds too good to be true. Now that I know that MS trademarked Windows 365 within the same month they made the "free upgrade" announcement, I'm concerned as a long-time customer of the Windows product. And I'm concerned (read: cautious) because there are no details/answers (that I know of) about certain questions that I now have, such as:

If I upgrade from Win7 to Win10 during that first 12 months, will my version of Win10 truly be free to use for as long as I want?

Assuming Windows 365 will be an OS service and not a product, will it be a completely separate option?

Will Windows 10 be the last Windows product (not service) that MS sells, or will they continue to develop and sell future versions of the OS as a true product?

MeatMan wrote:

If I upgrade from Win7 to Win10 during that first 12 months, will my version of Win10 truly be free to use for as long as I want?

Assuming Windows 365 will be an OS service and not a product, will it be a completely separate option?

Will Windows 10 be the last Windows product (not service) that MS sells, or will they continue to develop and sell future versions of the OS as a true product?

Presumably a Windows 365 would be sold and marketed different from Windows 10, just as Office 365 and regular old Office are now. As GameGuru mentioned, large enterprises will not buy into a system where they're forced to upgrade constantly on someone else's schedule to maintain support.

Kurrelgyre wrote:

Presumably a Windows 365 would be sold and marketed different from Windows 10, just as Office 365 and regular old Office are now.

I've never been an Office or Office 365 customer, as I've always used open-source alternatives, but now that I know the difference based on comments here, I'm hopeful that same difference will be present with Windows 10 and Windows 365.

Kurrelgyre wrote:

As GameGuru mentioned, large enterprises will not buy into a system where they're forced to upgrade constantly on someone else's schedule to maintain support.

But I'm an individual customer, not an enterprise, so here's another question: Just because enterprise won't buy into that, does that guarantee that the true product option will always be there for us individuals?

There would have to be for OEMs at least, unless you expect Dell to have to explain to every customer that all their new PCs require a subscription.

MeatMan wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

I've gotten used to paying $10 / mo for streaming TV and music. I think I'll be okay with an operating system subscription, honestly.

And that TV-streaming and music-streaming service started out as a service, which you (and I) chose to sign up for. Windows has always been a product. I buy the product, and I can keep using that product for as long as I want. As I've already pointed out, upgrading from Win7 to Win10, absolutely free, sounds too good to be true. Now that I know that MS trademarked Windows 365 within the same month they made the "free upgrade" announcement, I'm concerned as a long-time customer of the Windows product. And I'm concerned (read: cautious) because there are no details/answers (that I know of) about certain questions that I now have, such as:

If I upgrade from Win7 to Win10 during that first 12 months, will my version of Win10 truly be free to use for as long as I want?

Assuming Windows 365 will be an OS service and not a product, will it be a completely separate option?

Will Windows 10 be the last Windows product (not service) that MS sells, or will they continue to develop and sell future versions of the OS as a true product?

But why? Your only evidence you have to go on tells you the opposite of all your concerns. In fact your fear that your upgrade from Windows 7 to 10 will cease to be free makes zero sense. Do you really imagine that Microsoft would one day greet you with a screen that says please pay $10 a month from now on to use your Windows 10 PC or else. One might as well go around afraid that a satellite will fall from the sky on your head so you never leave the house. What's more likely is that the grace period for the free upgrade will expire and you will now have to pay to upgrade to Windows 10. That to me is a reasonable assumption to make given Microsoft's history.

Assuming Windows 365 will be an OS service and not a product, will it be a completely separate option?

Will Windows 10 be the last Windows product (not service) that MS sells, or will they continue to develop and sell future versions of the OS as a true product?

These two if you think about it even for a moment also don't really make sense given you know who Microsoft's main customers are.

But I'm an individual customer, not an enterprise, so here's another question: Just because enterprise won't buy into that, does that guarantee that the true product option will always be there for us individuals?

How would Microsoft know who you are purchasing a license? Anyone can go on CDW and buy pretty much what an Enterprise customer would buy (perhaps at a higher price given volume discounts etc.) Microsoft has several tiers of licensing several which have no minimum purchase requirements. Again if we look at history then we can reasonably assume that Microsoft will continue to offer stand alone single licenses of their core products at a historically average price.

If they were snooping on you when using a Microsoft Account to login (a login that, once the account has been added to the machine, works just fine when disconnected), it's equally as easy to snoop on you when you're using a local account.

Any information you volunteer is information that it would probably otherwise be illegal to take from your computer. If they were uploading your name, address, and other data without you explicitly volunteering it, they'd end up in deep sh*t. And then if you buy something from them, they know exactly who you are and can construct a very, very detailed profile on you.

If you never give them your name, they can't do that, at least not legally.

Remember: in Windows 8, they added advertising to Solitaire. If they can target those ads, they can make even more money by screwing up a simple game like that.

I think it's mostly that I don't keep any confidential information on my phone. I do on my home PC, so I'd rather have that device be as disconnected as possible.

You can also run CyanogenMod or one of the other more open firmwares. You don't have full control over the phone, still, the deep code like the baseband firmware is still under someone else's control, but it's a lot better.

edit to add:

Will Windows 10 be the last Windows product (not service) that MS sells, or will they continue to develop and sell future versions of the OS as a true product?

It sounds like Windows 10 is the last version, that there will never be another, and that if you're a normal consumer, you're probably going to get new features whether you want them or not.

Ooh, second edit to add:

I disagree. I know back in the days of M$ we collectively used to worry about a "Microsoft tax", but I think it's safe to say those fears are fairly unfounded.

You do realize that this is more true with Windows 8 than it ever has been before? They're now using the OS to advertise at you, and they've locked down the Metro mode so that you have to go through their storefront to get apps.

If you're using either of those things, you are now an ongoing revenue source for them. Welcome to the Microsoft Tax; it's not theoretical, it's here. It's not very high, and you can still avoid it, but you have to do a lot more work than you used to.