NFL 2014: Playoffs: Divisional

LeapingGnome wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I actually think it is a tough decision for Cardale.

Sure he only has three starts and most teams will likely pass on him, but in addition to what others have said about his being unlikely to start next year, there is also this to consider: This is easily the weakest QB draft class in recorded history. There are easily half a dozen teams who need qb's, the free agent market is a Third World trainwreck, and aside from the off field nightmare of Jameis Winston, there is no one left in the qb draft class that is likely to have a job with cleats in two years.

So the question is, "what choice does he have?"

I agree, I think his draft stock will never be higher and he should go if he doesn't care about finishing college right now. He'll make a million or two in the NFL instead of going undrafted if he waits.

I'm hazy on College Football transfer rules but could he go somewhere else where he could start? In lieu of that I would agree.. go now he won't get more attention next year if he isnt a starter. memories are short.

Vector wrote:

How come any offensive player can't catch the ball?

To keep the game from being perpetual trick plays, probably.

LeapingGnome wrote:

I swear I've seen some formations where the line is weighted and there are three guys on one side of the center and one on the other. Or am I crazy?

Yes (they exist, not that you're crazy). That exists because this rule allows it to. But they are employed very rarely, and my assertion here is that those formations aren't a big enough part of the game to justify keeping the overly complex rule that allows them.

When the players line up in a formation, it should be self-evident who can and cannot go out on pass patterns. It should not require special intervention with/from the referees to define that.

EDIT: I should point out that you could still have a formation where there is one guy to the left of the center, and three to the right, so long as there is someone else further down the line of scrimmage on the left (like a receiver). In that case, the receiver would be the "second to the left" guy from the center and ineligible. And the third offensive lineman to the right of the center would be eligible.

So it's not like removing the rule takes away all avenues of trickiness. But what it does is make the information required to determine who is and isn't eligible entirely on the field, not through refs.

Paleocon wrote:

I actually think it is a tough decision for Cardale.

Sure he only has three starts and most teams will likely pass on him, but in addition to what others have said about his being unlikely to start next year, there is also this to consider: This is easily the weakest QB draft class in recorded history. There are easily half a dozen teams who need qb's, the free agent market is a Third World trainwreck, and aside from the off field nightmare of Jameis Winston, there is no one left in the qb draft class that is likely to have a job with cleats in two years.

So the question is, "what choice does he have?"

I'd say it's a far better class than two years ago with EJ and Geno. It wouldn't take much to be better than that.

garion333 wrote:
Vector wrote:

How come any offensive player can't catch the ball?

To keep the game from being perpetual trick plays, probably.

Yeah, it basically changes the game entirely. It would be along the lines of the A-11 offense, but even more chaotic and less restricted.

LeapingGnome wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I actually think it is a tough decision for Cardale.

Sure he only has three starts and most teams will likely pass on him, but in addition to what others have said about his being unlikely to start next year, there is also this to consider: This is easily the weakest QB draft class in recorded history. There are easily half a dozen teams who need qb's, the free agent market is a Third World trainwreck, and aside from the off field nightmare of Jameis Winston, there is no one left in the qb draft class that is likely to have a job with cleats in two years.

So the question is, "what choice does he have?"

I agree, I think his draft stock will never be higher and he should go if he doesn't care about finishing college right now. He'll make a million or two in the NFL instead of going undrafted if he waits.

I disagree about his draft stock peak in right now. It could, but I'm hearing 4th round. A full season of production could improve that. Of course, a really good combine combined with a weak QB class and so many teams needing a QB could push him up.

Paleocon wrote:

This is easily the weakest QB draft class in recorded history.

Nonsense, this isn't even the weakest QB class of the past 3 years.

*Legion* wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:

I swear I've seen some formations where the line is weighted and there are three guys on one side of the center and one on the other. Or am I crazy?

Yes (they exist, not that you're crazy). That exists because this rule allows it to. But they are employed very rarely, and my assertion here is that those formations aren't a big enough part of the game to justify keeping the overly complex rule that allows them.

When the players line up in a formation, it should be self-evident who can and cannot go out on pass patterns. It should not require special intervention with/from the referees to define that.

EDIT: I should point out that you could still have a formation where there is one guy to the left of the center, and three to the right, so long as there is someone else further down the line of scrimmage on the left (like a receiver). In that case, the receiver would be the "second to the left" guy from the center and ineligible. And the third offensive lineman to the right of the center would be eligible.

So it's not like removing the rule takes away all avenues of trickiness. But what it does is make the information required to determine who is and isn't eligible entirely on the field, not through refs.

Aren't those the current rules? The numbers are designed to make it easier and less tricky. If you have a number in the 50s, 60s, 70s, or 90s, you are a lineman and we can assume you're ineligible without having to diagnose in real time who is and is not on the line. In a quick tempo offense, this could be difficult.

If you have a number <50 or in the 80s, you are a skill position player and are eligible.

If the refs tell the defense, "So and so is (in)eligible" they have to assess the formation and adjust coverage accordingly. The rules as they are simplify the process on 99.9% of plays.

Jayhawker wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I actually think it is a tough decision for Cardale.

Sure he only has three starts and most teams will likely pass on him, but in addition to what others have said about his being unlikely to start next year, there is also this to consider: This is easily the weakest QB draft class in recorded history. There are easily half a dozen teams who need qb's, the free agent market is a Third World trainwreck, and aside from the off field nightmare of Jameis Winston, there is no one left in the qb draft class that is likely to have a job with cleats in two years.

So the question is, "what choice does he have?"

I agree, I think his draft stock will never be higher and he should go if he doesn't care about finishing college right now. He'll make a million or two in the NFL instead of going undrafted if he waits.

I disagree about his draft stock peak in right now. It could, but I'm hearing 4th round. A full season of production could improve that. Of course, a really good combine combined with a weak QB class and so many teams needing a QB could push him up.

But I don't think he'll get a full season of production since from what people are saying he is going to return to being a backup. 4th round is pretty good for a guy who if he stays in school will be a backup and go undrafted. If you make it through camp that will still net you what, a 2-3 year contract worth a million or two?

EDIT: looking at the best chart I could quickly find, it looks like 4th round rookie contracts are worth about $2.5 million. Not bad!

http://overthecap.com/nfl-rookie-sal...

kaostheory wrote:

Aren't those the current rules? The numbers are designed to make it easier and less tricky. If you have a number in the 50s, 60s, 70s, or 90s, you are a lineman and we can assume you're ineligible without having to diagnose in real time who is and is not on the line. In a quick tempo offense, this could be difficult.

If you have a number <50 or in the 80s, you are a skill position player and are eligible.

If the refs tell the defense, "So and so is (in)eligible" they have to assess the formation and adjust coverage accordingly. The rules as they are simplify the process on 99.9% of plays.

What's simpler than taking away the possibility of ineligible receivers lining up anywhere but in pairs on each side of the center?

Defenses already align based on the offense's formation. A player with a 70s jersey lining up in the tight end position isn't confusing anyone. Except currently, the defense must wait on a ref to say if the guy is eligible, and wonder if they missed it when they don't hear it. The rule I'm proposing eradicates all ambiguity. Where you line up in a formation determines whether you are eligible or not, period, nothing else. Not your jersey number or a referee announcement or anything.

Which would be completely transparent for those same 99.9% of plays, as it's how everyone lines up on almost every play.

LeapingGnome wrote:

But I don't think he'll get a full season of production since from what people are saying he is going to return to being a backup. 4th round is pretty good for a guy who if he stays in school will be a backup and go undrafted. If you make it through camp that will still net you what, a 2-3 year contract worth a million or two?

In truth, though, that "4th round" designation is a fiction. Until he declares for the draft, no scouting department has done *any* real work on him.

I find it highly doubtful any team would spend a 4th round pick on him. That's a valuable draft pick. In all likelihood, he'd be an undrafted free agent right now. But that too is speculation.

The only thing I can say for certain is that there's no slam-dunk 4th round selection waiting for Jones to declare. He played 3 good games but scouts don't care about doing it for "THE Ohio State University" at the end of season and playoffs. It has about the same weight as a 3 game film cut-up from the Arizona regular season would. And it wasn't an earth-shattering 3 games.

Cardale might be a good project for someone who can afford to take a late-round flier on him.

He's got a big arm and a big strong body, and he showed some patience in the pocket. But last night it didn't look like he was making more than one read before he started to move around in the pocket.

That said, NFL teams have picked players who had plenty of film that definitely showed they couldn't play. Why not take someone without any film and just cross your fingers? Can't be any worse, right?

Enix wrote:

Cardale might be a good project for someone who can afford to take a late-round flier on him.

He's got a big arm and a big strong body, and he showed some patience in the pocket. But last night it didn't look like he was making more than one read before he started to move around in the pocket.

That said, NFL teams have picked players who had plenty of film that definitely showed they couldn't play. Why not take someone without any film and just cross your fingers? Can't be any worse, right?

I would take a late-round flyer on him if I had an older QB who I knew wouldn't mind mentoring a young kid. (Broncos, Pats, etc.). Clearly, Jones can sit on the bench and learn and can come in to play in high-pressure situations.

TheGameguru wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I actually think it is a tough decision for Cardale.

Sure he only has three starts and most teams will likely pass on him, but in addition to what others have said about his being unlikely to start next year, there is also this to consider: This is easily the weakest QB draft class in recorded history. There are easily half a dozen teams who need qb's, the free agent market is a Third World trainwreck, and aside from the off field nightmare of Jameis Winston, there is no one left in the qb draft class that is likely to have a job with cleats in two years.

So the question is, "what choice does he have?"

I agree, I think his draft stock will never be higher and he should go if he doesn't care about finishing college right now. He'll make a million or two in the NFL instead of going undrafted if he waits.

I'm hazy on College Football transfer rules but could he go somewhere else where he could start? In lieu of that I would agree.. go now he won't get more attention next year if he isnt a starter. memories are short.

He could transfer, but he would have to sit a year out.

Paleocon wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I actually think it is a tough decision for Cardale.

Sure he only has three starts and most teams will likely pass on him, but in addition to what others have said about his being unlikely to start next year, there is also this to consider: This is easily the weakest QB draft class in recorded history. There are easily half a dozen teams who need qb's, the free agent market is a Third World trainwreck, and aside from the off field nightmare of Jameis Winston, there is no one left in the qb draft class that is likely to have a job with cleats in two years.

So the question is, "what choice does he have?"

I agree, I think his draft stock will never be higher and he should go if he doesn't care about finishing college right now. He'll make a million or two in the NFL instead of going undrafted if he waits.

I'm hazy on College Football transfer rules but could he go somewhere else where he could start? In lieu of that I would agree.. go now he won't get more attention next year if he isnt a starter. memories are short.

He could transfer, but he would have to sit a year out.

I've heard that option floated today...to Michigan.

UpToIsomorphism wrote:
Enix wrote:

Cardale might be a good project for someone who can afford to take a late-round flier on him.

He's got a big arm and a big strong body, and he showed some patience in the pocket. But last night it didn't look like he was making more than one read before he started to move around in the pocket.

That said, NFL teams have picked players who had plenty of film that definitely showed they couldn't play. Why not take someone without any film and just cross your fingers? Can't be any worse, right?

I would take a late-round flyer on him if I had an older QB who I knew wouldn't mind mentoring a young kid. (Broncos, Pats, etc.). Clearly, Jones can sit on the bench and learn and can come in to play in high-pressure situations.

Cardale would absolutely be worth a late pick for the Browns. Manziel is a Third World trainwreck, Hoyer is not your answer, and an Ohio State national champ would absolutely pack a stadium in Cleveland.

Paleocon wrote:
UpToIsomorphism wrote:
Enix wrote:

Cardale might be a good project for someone who can afford to take a late-round flier on him.

He's got a big arm and a big strong body, and he showed some patience in the pocket. But last night it didn't look like he was making more than one read before he started to move around in the pocket.

That said, NFL teams have picked players who had plenty of film that definitely showed they couldn't play. Why not take someone without any film and just cross your fingers? Can't be any worse, right?

I would take a late-round flyer on him if I had an older QB who I knew wouldn't mind mentoring a young kid. (Broncos, Pats, etc.). Clearly, Jones can sit on the bench and learn and can come in to play in high-pressure situations.

Cardale would absolutely be worth a late pick for the Browns. Manziel is a Third World trainwreck, Hoyer is not your answer, and an Ohio State national champ would absolutely pack a stadium in Cleveland.

Very true; though a) I would still rather have Mariotta or Rakeem Kato and b) the Browns never have trouble filling the stadium--no matter how big the train-wreck is.

And if Cardale would like to transfer somewhere and not sit out a year, I think we could find room on the roster at Northern Iowa. I would even offer our spare room for him.

UpToIsomorphism wrote:

And if Cardale would like to transfer somewhere and not sit out a year, I think we could find room on the roster at Northern Iowa. I would even offer our spare room for him.

I'm pretty sure you just violated a bucket load of NCAA rules. Someone will be by to take your statement.

*Legion* wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:

But I don't think he'll get a full season of production since from what people are saying he is going to return to being a backup. 4th round is pretty good for a guy who if he stays in school will be a backup and go undrafted. If you make it through camp that will still net you what, a 2-3 year contract worth a million or two?

In truth, though, that "4th round" designation is a fiction. Until he declares for the draft, no scouting department has done *any* real work on him.

I find it highly doubtful any team would spend a 4th round pick on him. That's a valuable draft pick. In all likelihood, he'd be an undrafted free agent right now. But that too is speculation.

Someone drafted Manziel in the first round. FIRST ROUND. And they had tons of tape and scouting showing he would probably suck. If this guy declares I would be very surprised if he lasts until the 5th round. But I agree with you, it is all speculation.

LeapingGnome wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:

But I don't think he'll get a full season of production since from what people are saying he is going to return to being a backup. 4th round is pretty good for a guy who if he stays in school will be a backup and go undrafted. If you make it through camp that will still net you what, a 2-3 year contract worth a million or two?

In truth, though, that "4th round" designation is a fiction. Until he declares for the draft, no scouting department has done *any* real work on him.

I find it highly doubtful any team would spend a 4th round pick on him. That's a valuable draft pick. In all likelihood, he'd be an undrafted free agent right now. But that too is speculation.

Someone drafted Manziel in the first round. FIRST ROUND. And they had tons of tape and scouting showing he would probably suck. If this guy declares I would be very surprised if he lasts until the 5th round. But I agree with you, it is all speculation.

Even Tebow was drafted in the first round and he threw the ball even worse than Manziel. All it takes in one influential person to vouch for a player.

LeapingGnome wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:

But I don't think he'll get a full season of production since from what people are saying he is going to return to being a backup. 4th round is pretty good for a guy who if he stays in school will be a backup and go undrafted. If you make it through camp that will still net you what, a 2-3 year contract worth a million or two?

In truth, though, that "4th round" designation is a fiction. Until he declares for the draft, no scouting department has done *any* real work on him.

I find it highly doubtful any team would spend a 4th round pick on him. That's a valuable draft pick. In all likelihood, he'd be an undrafted free agent right now. But that too is speculation.

Someone drafted Manziel in the first round. FIRST ROUND. And they had tons of tape and scouting showing he would probably suck. If this guy declares I would be very surprised if he lasts until the 5th round. But I agree with you, it is all speculation.

Yes, but lots of college-famous QBs slide right into draft irrelevance. And Cardale doesn't have anything like JFF's college production. Cardale doesn't even have a 300 yard passing game to his name. A scout can talk themselves into falling in love with a JFF watching his sensational college play. Cardale doesn't have that.

I've seen Jones throw bombs, scramble, and hit some sort passes. Nothing indicates he's NFL ready in any way.

Three games. Take a breath and back away.

Vector wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:

But I don't think he'll get a full season of production since from what people are saying he is going to return to being a backup. 4th round is pretty good for a guy who if he stays in school will be a backup and go undrafted. If you make it through camp that will still net you what, a 2-3 year contract worth a million or two?

In truth, though, that "4th round" designation is a fiction. Until he declares for the draft, no scouting department has done *any* real work on him.

I find it highly doubtful any team would spend a 4th round pick on him. That's a valuable draft pick. In all likelihood, he'd be an undrafted free agent right now. But that too is speculation.

Someone drafted Manziel in the first round. FIRST ROUND. And they had tons of tape and scouting showing he would probably suck. If this guy declares I would be very surprised if he lasts until the 5th round. But I agree with you, it is all speculation.

Even Tebow was drafted in the first round and he threw the ball even worse than Manziel. All it takes in one influential person to vouch for a player.

But Legion already said no. I think that takes care of that.

Seriously, it will all come down to how he does the combine. If he skips or flubs, then he may not get drafted. If he comes in 100% prepared and says and does all the right things, he really could become a 1st round pick for a a desperate team.

That said, I think there is a greater than 50% shot he doesn't come out.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I've seen Jones throw bombs, scramble, and hit some sort passes. Nothing indicates he's NFL ready in any way.

Three games. Take a breath and back away.

It's kind of absurd. The Manziel and Tebow comparisons are nonsensical. Lots of QBs throw better than them and went low or undrafted. Winning college championships didn't help AJ McCarron either. Or Matt Flynn. Or Chris Leak. Or Jason White. (Oh wait, he lost the championships, huh Boogle?).

There's a bit too much transitive property logic going into that thought process. It's the same logic that makes the Colorado Mines a winner over this year's national champion:

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7NX67mCIAAWnIu.png)

Cardale Jones will get evaluated for Cardale Jones. And Tebow and Manziel were two of the most prolific college players in a generation. That gives scouts something to fall in love with, right or wrong. Cardale Jones and his 3 games hardly compare.

My greater point was that it takes one influential person to get a player drafted. Which is something no one here can predict.

*Legion* wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I've seen Jones throw bombs, scramble, and hit some sort passes. Nothing indicates he's NFL ready in any way.

Three games. Take a breath and back away.

It's kind of absurd. The Manziel and Tebow comparisons are nonsensical. Lots of QBs throw better than them and went low or undrafted. Winning college championships didn't help AJ McCarron either. Or Matt Flynn. Or Chris Leak. Or Jason White. (Oh wait, he lost the championships, huh Boogle?).

There's a bit too much transitive property logic going into that thought process. It's the same logic that makes the Colorado Mines a winner over this year's national champion:

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7NX67mCIAAWnIu.png)

Cardale Jones will get evaluated for Cardale Jones. And Tebow and Manziel were two of the most prolific college players in a generation. That gives scouts something to fall in love with, right or wrong. Cardale Jones and his 3 games hardly compare.

I agree with that.

All of that said, I can't imagine a scenario where either staying at OSU or sitting year out to transfer does anything to increase his draft stock. Okay, I can think of one, but it involves two quarterbacks getting suspended, convicted, or hit by a falling goalpost.

If he wants to play professional football, as sucky as it is, his best chance ever is now.

Based on what I saw (and I'm admittedly not anywhere close to an expert, I just watch a lot of football), JT Barrett is a better quarterback than Cardale Jones. Barrett is a year younger than Jones. So, if Barrett fully recovers from his injury, it's possible Jones never plays another game for Ohio State which probably won't help his draft stock that much. Sitting out a year for a transfer probably isn't an attractive option when you just had a kid. It seems to me that going into that draft is really the best option for him. That's not even factoring in that he clearly hates being in school.

Paleocon wrote:

All of that said, I can't imagine a scenario where either staying at OSU or sitting year out to transfer does anything to increase his draft stock.

I can imagine it, as it's the exact scenario that made Cam Newton a #1 overall pick.

Like Newton, Jones doesn't have to miss football entirely for a year, just transfer to a lower division, actually play some games, and then come back to the FBS as a senior and have a big year.

I do agree that going back to Ohio State and sitting down on the depth chart won't help him much. But I don't agree that the transfer path is futile. It was good for Newton to go to Blinn and play even against lesser competition, and it was huge for him to come back up and play a full season as an FBS starter. No reason why the same path couldn't benefit Jones IMO.

EDIT: Bear in mind that I currently have no opinion on Cardale Jones as an NFL prospect. Just an opinion on how he would likely be received with only 3 college games to his name, and an opinion on what would be a better way forward.

The good news is, if he does declare for the draft, he'll be the easiest player in history for me to catch up on. I could watch his entire college career in one sitting!

TheGameguru wrote:

Does anyone actually eat that garbage?? I mean I know in LA they do since there is basically no good pizza.. but god almighty that sh*t is stank.

You know, I've had better pizza. I spent a couple years in north Jersey, and there was this awesome place we went to. I've also had far worse pizza, although nowhere really comes to mind for that in the same way. But Papa John's? Yea, it's not the best, not even close. But it's reasonably cheap, and it's pretty consistent in how it's put together. Less greasy than Domino's or Pizza Hut too, which is a lot of why I still give it any stock. I pretty much order it when I'm lazy and don't want to spend the time/effort to go to one of the actual good pizza places local.

TheGameguru wrote:
Enix wrote:

Speaking of old and Papa John's ... I thought Joe Montana looked ancient. Hunched over that pizza, he was positively Gollum-like. Weird.

I had a similar reaction... the athletes that play football today are just enormous compared to the players from the 70's and 80's.

Also, Montana wasn't really that big, even for back then. There's a reason he went as far down as he did.

Paleocon wrote:

Considering all the folks that have pretty much verbally committed to staying in B-more, it looks like the team can't wait for another crack at the season. Kubiak, Steve Smith, Torrey Smith, Justin Forsett... It sounds like they know they have something special, that they are one or two pieces shy of the championship and they want to stick it out for that shot.

I honestly think that the addition of two players (a shut down corner and another receiver) could make all the difference between a team that limped into the playoffs and a team that could win it all. And more encouraging is that free agency has tons of corners and the draft class in wide receivers may be the best in decades.

Here is hoping the team regroups like the last time they lost to the Pats in the playoffs.

I don't know that we really need another receiver. Pitta should be back next year and he's got some pretty solid hands; here's hoping he stays healthy for the season. I do agree that we need some beef in the secondary though.

Even Tebow was drafted in the first round and he threw the ball even worse than Manziel. All it takes in one influential person to vouch for a player.

I'd say Tebow getting drafted high had more to do with him being a Heisman winner than anyone vouching for him in particular.

Todd Bowles to the Jets, Jack del Rio more than likely to the Raiders, and Adam Gase not to the 49ers yet.