Terrorist attack on french satirical magazine.

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http://m.france24.com/en/20150107-live-blog-gun-shots-french-paris-charlie-hebdo-satirical-magazine/

God damn it! What on earth did the killers hope to achieve with this? And unless it was to cause even more people to want to draw mohamed then they are really barking up the wrong tree.

I propose Million Muhammad Month, where everyone gets some chalk, and in a public place draws a stick figure with an arrow pointing to it saying, "Muhammad."

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

I propose Million Muhammad Month, where everyone gets some chalk, and in a public place draws a stick figure with an arrow pointing to it saying, "Muhammad."

This actually seems like the most reasonable response.

Seth wrote:
H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

I propose Million Muhammad Month, where everyone gets some chalk, and in a public place draws a stick figure with an arrow pointing to it saying, "Muhammad."

This actually seems like the most reasonable response.

It's actually been done.

I love how pundits and talk show hosts are up at arms about how Islam is so strict about this and it's so ridiculous... when for the last two years, they've been talking about how gay marriage is going to destroy this country, and feminism is going to destroy this country, and the Bible and Ten Commandments are sacred and it is a sacrilege to put anything else on the same level as them... and novelty Nativity scenes are an abomination and sacrilegious and should be taken down.

I'm gonna hotlink the image that 12 people died for, because f*ck those murderers.

IMAGE(http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/muslim.jpg)

The text says "100 lashes of the whip if you don't die laughing."

I hope billions more see this image and the people who did this realize their efforts were a disastrous failure.

So news reports are coming out that the attack was by al-Qaeda in Arabian Peninsula (Yemen), though officially they haven't claimed credit and have even said it wasn't their operation. They did say they could have inspired it.

Wow, really sad.

I bet Al-Qaeda will claim that it was all about ethics in satirical journalism.

Interesting point I saw on Twitter, painting this as a freedom of expression issue could be problematic for most Muslims who have been told their religious expression wih head scarves is illegal.

Demosthenes wrote:

Interesting point I saw on Twitter, painting this as a freedom of expression issue could be problematic for most Muslims who have been told their religious expression wih head scarves is illegal.

Yeah that's a travesty. How many murders did those problematic burqa banners commit?

Seth wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:

Interesting point I saw on Twitter, painting this as a freedom of expression issue could be problematic for most Muslims who have been told their religious expression wih head scarves is illegal.

Yeah that's a travesty. How many murders did those problematic burqa banners commit?

Anti-Muslim violence: A wakeup call for European governments
(Marwan Muhammad and Elsa Ray and Michaël Privot, EU Observer, 2014-07-30)

Several violent attacks against Muslim women preceded the riots in France. One of the most severe incidents occurred on 13 June, when two men physically abused a 21 year-old pregnant woman.

Muslim women are increasingly the victims of violence.

In France in 2012, 85 percent of anti-Muslim reported incidents targeted women, and other countries demonstrate similar figures. The UK experienced a significant increase in anti-Muslim violence after the Woolwich killing, and the NGO Tell Mama recorded 12 incidents per week on average between March 2012 and March 2013. Most of these incidents concerned Muslim women.

So, Zero.

Btw hours after a Muslim terrorist attack murders ten leftist satirists and two cops is not the best time to play the "but Muslims have it hard too" card.

Seth wrote:

Btw hours after a Muslim terrorist attack murders ten leftist satirists and two cops is not the best time to play the "but Muslims have it hard too" card.

Yeah, I'm sure all the Muslim people likely to be attacked, have their property and businesses vandalized and lots of racist sh*t thrown at them will appreciate that at least none of them have died for the sake of some random unknown other people who share a belief in the same prophet (though not likely the same belief in how they should act according to that prophet's words) and those random people's actions.

Or you could recognize there are a lot of the people criticizing Muslims today are the same people who mocked their religious expression, and they're now watching as those people are sending the message that their own expression is more important than Muslim expression.

And this was a fundamentalist terrorist attack, not a Muslim terrorist attack. All of Islam is not responsible for the actions of a few.

Demosthenes wrote:
Seth wrote:

Btw hours after a Muslim terrorist attack murders ten leftist satirists and two cops is not the best time to play the "but Muslims have it hard too" card.

Yeah, I'm sure all the Muslim people likely to be attacked, have their property and businesses vandalized and lots of racist sh*t thrown at them will appreciate that at least none of them have died for the sake of some random unknown other people who share a belief in the same prophet (though not likely the same belief in how they should act according to that prophet's words) and those random people's actions.

Or you could recognize there are a lot of the people criticizing Muslims today are the same people who mocked their religious expression, and they're now watching as those people are sending the message that their own expression is more important than Muslim expression.

And this was a fundamentalist terrorist attack, not a Muslim terrorist attack. All of Islam is not responsible for the actions of a few.

That's a really long way of writing "murder is different than not-murder."

This is my biggest f*cking problem with liberals and progressives. Every time a christian Female Doggoes about a cross being taken off taxpayer land, they are up in arms about what a terrible thing it is that a cross or nativity scene is on taxpayer land.

And they're right.

Every time a Muslim group kills a dozen people, they're whining about stuff like the nonstop false equivalence about how hard it is for the downtrodden muslim.

f*ck. That. They're wrong.

Whoa.

When Christians face unreasonable criticism, I complain. For example, I get pissed off at super anti-religious atheists. That doesn't mean that I don't also complain when Christianity is given pride-of-place by government officials. That doesn't mean I sympathize with people who feel oppressed by being forced to give up that pride-of-place, because that's not oppression. If an evangelical Christian goes and tries to blow up the NAACP, I don't say "oh, everybody who's a Christian is complicit in this." And, in fact, I stand against assholes who try to do that. I don't worry that there'll be major civic unrest due to bigotry against Christians because that's ludicrous.

When a Muslim group kills a dozen people, I complain. That doesn't mean I don't also defend the right of Muslims to express themselves, or to practice their religion. It doesn't mean that I don't sympathize with people who are singled out by laws that forbid their specific religious expression. When I hear "oh, everybody who's a Muslim is complicit in this", I stand against it--whether the assholes are atheist or Christians or whatever. I [em]do[/em] worry that there'll be major civic unrest due to bigotry against Muslims because it happens all the time.

If people marched in the streets with pitchforks and torches shouting "Christians go home", or routinely discriminated against and beat up people wearing crucifixes? You might have a point. But this doesn't happen. It [em]does[/em] happen for Muslims wearing traditionally Muslim clothing (and also clothing that's not Muslim at all but which is associated with Islam in the popular consciousness. And also people who aren't Muslim but have an ethnic background that is associated with Islam in the popular consciousness. etc.)

Seth wrote:

This is my biggest f*cking problem with liberals and progressives. Every time a christian Female Doggoes about a cross being taken off taxpayer land, they are up in arms about what a terrible thing it is that a cross or nativity scene is on taxpayer land.

And they're right.

Every time a Muslim group kills a dozen people, they're whining about stuff like the nonstop false equivalence about how hard it is for the downtrodden muslim.

f*ck. That. They're wrong.

Meanwhile, every time a Christian kills a bunch of people, it's never the Christianity's fault. But looking at news stories tonight, there is a lot of framing this as a Muslim attack and trying to make the whole religion out as responsible instead of some extremist fundamentalist nutjobs.

Charlie Hedbo will likely be looked at by those not screaming for Muslim blood later. After all, the magazine didn't care about free expression for Muslim women (NSFW).

I very much hope for the best for the family and friends of those slain today, including a Muslim police officer who was trying to stop these fundamentalists. I hope those slain find peace and heir family and friends find solace.

But I see a lot of holes in this Muslims are against free speech and the good Christians of the world need to fight back story so much of the news is trying to spin. And I suspect a lot of innocent Muslims are going to suffer at the hands of those who feel wronged in the West... and I'd like to think those who died today would not be ok with that. But something tells me, the resultant hate crimes against Musljms will recieve about as much mass media coverage as the pipe bombing of the the NAACP offices in Colorado yesterday.

Hypatian wrote:

Thoughtful Things

Well said.

Kat, when was the last time you complained about christians facing anything, let alone unreasonable criticism?

Demo, when was the last time a christian killed a bunch of people in the name of their religion? Abortion bombings count.

I've done it pretty regularly on these forums. Also on twitter. I don't feel the need very often.

You see, the thing is... "Christians" as a group? They generally don't get tarred with a single brush. The religion generally [em]does not[/em] receive any sort of universal criticism. I most commonly see it from people who believe religion in general can be nothing but bad bad bad. (And they? Generally [em]still[/em] privilege Christianity over Islam.)

No you haven't.

Edit - I follow your Twitter, too, as best as I can understand Twitter. And you don't do it there either.

Seth wrote:

Kat, when was the last time you complained about christians facing anything, let alone unreasonable criticism?

She gave a categorical example in the very first line of her post.

These forums are not the only place in the world people have discussions, anyway.

Um. So, what, do you want me to go back and find examples or something? ffs. Why don't I have a ready example to hand? Because I haven't seen it happen lately, and when I have seen it, other people were addressing it quite well enough.

Edit:

(Also because the place I see it on here is generally the atheism thread that hasn't gotten a ton of traffic lately, and I've more or less sworn off of posting there after making multiple attempts to get people to understand that universal anti-religious prejudice is just as unwarranted as other kinds. I figure my work there is as done as it's going too get.)

Perhaps if you could give an example of something I haven't spoken up about that you really think I ought to have?

clover wrote:
Seth wrote:

Kat, when was the last time you complained about christians facing anything, let alone unreasonable criticism?

She gave a categorical example in the very first line of her post.

These forums are not the only place in the world people have discussions.

She did and it was a terrible example. I am calling Kat and demo and you specifically, and everyone else generally. There is a DRASTIC lack of condemnation for violence commited by Muslims - Chechen, Arab, asian, what have you. There is a mountain of justification and a clear lack of condemnation. including this attack.

Okay, then: I condemn these murders. And I condemn the cartoonists for publishing racist bullsh*t (this doesn't make the murders OK, but the murders don't make the bigotry OK either). And I condemn the people who will react by showing bigotry towards Muslims. And I condemn the people who will react to that bigotry with more violence. Am I missing anything? Do I still need to be more clear?

Hypatian wrote:

Okay, then: I condemn this attack. And I condemn the cartoonists for publishing racist bullsh*t. And I condemn the people who will react by showing bigotry towards Muslims. And I condemn the people who will react to that bigotry with more violence. Am I missing anything?

Thank you.

Now please clarify that there's a difference in degree between condemning murder and condemning satire.

Edit: whoa you did it before I even posted.

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