I did my international relations degree in a country that counts itself as one of your staunchest allies and even there we consider you the Big Bad. I mean you did overthrow our government.
If you honestly think America isn't That Guy on the international stage you're really not paying attention.
And before you slap yourselves on the back at your openness, let's not forget this report was leaked and the only person punished for it was the guy who leaked it.
Chumpy_McChump wrote:This pretty much solidifies the US as the Bad Guys, doesn't it? Torture, invasion, government organizations acting illegally in secret, international intimidation, propping up of terrorist or terrorist-like foreign governments for political gain, aggressive crackdowns on internal civilian populations... Even American elections are becoming more and more rigged by those in power (thinking specifically of gerrymandering and "voter fraud prevention" laws). Isn't this the point where the world needs to help free the American populace?
Yeah, I don't know. Would the bad guys release a huge report documenting their own failure
in the hopes of making changes to rectify the situationat their own potential peril?
If I were a Bad Guy trying to maintain a Good Guy image, both to my populace and (possibly) to myself, I sure would. It won't matter; it'll get people riled up ("How could our own government do such horrible things? *gasp*") then they'll move on to J-Lo's comeback album ("And have you checked out her shoes? *gasp*), or the latest sportsballing event ("Did you see how many more scores the favoured team earned? *gasp*). Now not only is it forgotten, it's been acted upon, at least in the minds of the general populace.
Hell, yes. As PR goes, it's downright devious.
Nomad wrote:Chumpy_McChump wrote:This pretty much solidifies the US as the Bad Guys, doesn't it? Torture, invasion, government organizations acting illegally in secret, international intimidation, propping up of terrorist or terrorist-like foreign governments for political gain, aggressive crackdowns on internal civilian populations... Even American elections are becoming more and more rigged by those in power (thinking specifically of gerrymandering and "voter fraud prevention" laws). Isn't this the point where the world needs to help free the American populace?
Yeah, I don't know. Would the bad guys release a huge report documenting their own failure
in the hopes of making changes to rectify the situationat their own potential peril?If I were a Bad Guy trying to maintain a Good Guy image, both to my populace and (possibly) to myself, I sure would. It won't matter; it'll get people riled up ("How could our own government do such horrible things? *gasp*") then they'll move on to J-Lo's comeback album ("And have you checked out her shoes? *gasp*), or the latest sportsballing event ("Did you see how many more scores the favoured team earned? *gasp*). Now not only is it forgotten, it's been acted upon, at least in the minds of the general populace.
Hell, yes. As PR goes, it's downright devious.
I don't know... I don't think many people will feel that somehow justice has been done, or good faith has been acted upon. But there is a big undercurrent of (both learned and real) helplessness in this country, which is just fine with the established authorities. Most folks who might be outraged and will continue to be outraged don't feel that they can change such behavior in any meaningful fashion... especially when a significant & vocal portion of the constituency is willing to vigorously defend said behavior. And people can't deal with despair in their daily lives, so they will just bury it and move on. That's just self-preservation at work.
Yeah, I don't know. Would the bad guys release a huge report documenting their own failure in the hopes of making changes to rectify the situation at their own potential peril? Sure, this report is bad news, but hopefully it leads to steps in the right direction.
So, I guess the country as a whole is maybe not a "bad guy", but what about all the GOP politicians who opposed releasing this information. Would they not be considered bad guys here?
Frankly, I am ashamed by my country. Not so much because this torture happened, but because of the attempts to justify it or just plain apathy that the majority of the population seems to display.
According to reports they chained people's arms to the ceiling and held them there for 22 straight hours until their legs swelled up and they had to give them blood thinners to prevent death. That's not "enhanced interrogation"; that's downright Medievel-level torture. Pure evil in my opinion.
I think the whole Good/bad thing is a bit too simplistic for me.
I think we clearly have some VERY bad actors (e.g.: Cheney, Yoo, Rumsfeld) that would, if we were just about any country but the United States, be looking at the significant threat of charges of crimes against humanity. And nothing about the existence of this report or the reputed "openness" of our society in any way diminishes the severity of their atrocities. And the fact that we, as a country, participated in giving them the power to commit these atrocities is something we can not simply wish away because the efforts of heroic individuals, often at great personal expense, that have fought the good fight despite our own cowardice and stupidity.
We, as a country, owe a metric pantload to the folks who had the courage to stand up to this kind of venality. And THEY deserve the credit. Any tiny bit of credit we deserve as a country for mitigating our on venality belongs to the folks we despise for telling the truth.
That is a beautiful picture.
I think the whole Good/bad thing is a bit too simplistic for me.
I think we clearly have some VERY bad actors (e.g.: Cheney, Yoo, Rumsfeld) that would, if we were just about any country but the United States, be looking at the significant threat of charges of crimes against humanity. And nothing about the existence of this report or the reputed "openness" of our society in any way diminishes the severity of their atrocities. And the fact that we, as a country, participated in giving them the power to commit these atrocities is something we can not simply wish away because the efforts of heroic individuals, often at great personal expense, that have fought the good fight despite our own cowardice and stupidity.
We, as a country, owe a metric pantload to the folks who had the courage to stand up to this kind of venality. And THEY deserve the credit. Any tiny bit of credit we deserve as a country for mitigating our on venality belongs to the folks we despise for telling the truth.
The responses of the CIA bosses remind me of the Nuremburg trials. They just did as they were ordered.
It is proof enough, at least to me, of the non-existence of God that pieces of crap like Cheney will likely die peacefully in his sleep, surrounded by his loved ones, without a hint of remorse.
It is proof enough, at least to me, of the non-existence of God that pieces of crap like Cheney will likely die peacefully in his sleep, surrounded by his loved ones, without a hint of remorse.
Hell is a comforting lie.
Every person is deserving of dignity. Removing it from one lessens it for all.
Eh, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Let's say some maniac molests my child or rapes a family member, sure I don't want to see that individual tortured, but I sure as hell am not treating him/her with dignity.
LouZiffer wrote:Every person is deserving of dignity. Removing it from one lessens it for all.
Eh, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Let's say some maniac molests my child or rapes a family member, sure I don't want to see that individual tortured, but I sure as hell am not treating him/her with dignity.
Umm, by not wanting to see them tortured, you pretty much are.
Frankly, I am ashamed by my country. Not so much because this torture happened, but because of the attempts to justify it or just plain apathy that the majority of the population seems to display.
Seriously. This week is just one more big depressing "f*ck you" to those of us with a conscience.
According to reports they chained people's arms to the ceiling and held them there for 22 straight hours until their legs swelled up and they had to give them blood thinners to prevent death. That's not "enhanced interrogation"; that's downright Medievel-level torture. Pure evil in my opinion.
...I don't even...
gewy wrote:Frankly, I am ashamed by my country. Not so much because this torture happened, but because of the attempts to justify it or just plain apathy that the majority of the population seems to display.
Seriously. This week is just one more big depressing "f*ck you" to those of us with a conscience.
gewy wrote:According to reports they chained people's arms to the ceiling and held them there for 22 straight hours until their legs swelled up and they had to give them blood thinners to prevent death. That's not "enhanced interrogation"; that's downright Medievel-level torture. Pure evil in my opinion.
...I don't even... :(
Yup.
Any medical professional who participated in this series of atrocities should be prevented from ever practicing medicine again.
Every time I consider saying something else in this thread other than my initial statement, I end up shooting it down.
We have and are currently doing worse? Even without proof everyone knows this.
I'm thankful we live in a time when things like this are exposed while they're happening? Doesn't make it better, and far too little is currently being done.
It all comes down to whether we really consider human dignity to be a foundational thing. If we don't, dispense with the empty talk and pleasantries and let me know when the next boat is leaving. If we do, for f*cks sake we need some changes around here.
In other words, the CIA is lying. [The Guardian]
Redactions in US Senate's torture report block “attempts to establish a chain of responsibility” [Politico
Some of the most revealing information from the Senate Intelligence Committee report released on Tuesday is what’s not there. The 528-page summary had 7 percent of its words blacked out, obscuring...
I'm pretty worked up about this right now, so I guess I'll keep posting.
I don't buy this idea that the U.S. isn't the "bad guy" here just because this report was released. In my eyes, for this country to redeem itself there needs to be:
1. Universal condemnation of what happened
2. Punishment of those involved from the direct perpetrators all the way to the top
3. The public not electing anyone even remotely supportive or associated with this kind of behavior ever again
I don't see a single one of these happening unfortunately.
Agreed, Gewy. I think it's up to citizens to raise enough of a fuss to get something done. Or, maybe we'll get lucky and another Church Commission will address intelligence issues overall.
So, let me get this straight.
We invaded a country that was uninvolved in the cassis belli, deposed its government, started a sectarian war, and terrorized an entire population in support of a replacement despotic government.
And we wonder why they are pissed at us.
Farscry wrote:gewy wrote:Frankly, I am ashamed by my country. Not so much because this torture happened, but because of the attempts to justify it or just plain apathy that the majority of the population seems to display.
Seriously. This week is just one more big depressing "f*ck you" to those of us with a conscience.
gewy wrote:According to reports they chained people's arms to the ceiling and held them there for 22 straight hours until their legs swelled up and they had to give them blood thinners to prevent death. That's not "enhanced interrogation"; that's downright Medievel-level torture. Pure evil in my opinion.
...I don't even... :(
Yup.
Any medical professional who participated in this series of atrocities should be prevented from ever practicing medicine again.
Another compilation of these atrocities here.
It's great how they kept someone in a 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft x 21 inch box for 29 hours.
Or how they wrongfully imprisoned an intellectually disabled person just to use as leverage against his family member, another detainee.
The hardest part about reading the Torture Report is the fact that some people seem to think it's ok because they were "terrorists". Especially when you read more of the executive summary and realize that they are basically saying "We anally raped some folks with their lunches" and then go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Like, WTF?! It says it right here on page 584 "Majid Khan's "lunch tray" of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts, and raisins was "pureed" and rectally infused." 48 mentions of "rectal" in the torture report, FYI.
More choice quotes:
More from page 584. "CIA medical officers discussed rectal rehydration as a means of behavior control." "CIA detainees, particularly those subjected to standing sleep deprivation, were routinely placed in diapers"
Page 245 "the waterboard device [...] is surrounded by buckets, with a bottle of unknown pink solution (filled two thirds of the way to the top)".
Techniques "not violat[ing] prohibitions against torture found in Section 2340A of Title 18": "...insects
placed in a confinement box ..."
Page 7 "confining a detainee in a box with the dimensions of a coffin was an approved CIA enhanced interrogation technique."
Page 10 "In one case, interrogators informed a detainee that he could earn a bucket if he cooperated."
"detainees at the COBALT detention facility were kept in complete darkness and constantly shackled in isolated cells with loud noise or music and only a bucket to use for human waste."
How far have you gone to have lost your humanity this way? Seriously? "We tortured some folks" with punitive anal rape, extreme sleep deprivation, waterboarding, locking in coffins! They literally set out to disappear these people, Argentine junta style. The very first captive disappeared for a year and a half before anyone knew what happened to him and he was innocent!
Seriously, this is Gestapo level stuff (Enhanced Interrogation translates to Verschärfte Vernehmung, which is what they did). It only took 70 years to go from fighting the Nazis to becoming them in some aspects. Disgusting.
Paleocon wrote:So, let me get this straight.
We invaded a country that was uninvolved in the cassis belli, deposed its government, started a sectarian war, and terrorized an entire population in support of a replacement despotic government.
And we wonder why they are pissed at us.
You forgot the part where we setup torture camps in dictatorships (Libya, Syria, Egypt) that were later overthrown or plunged into civil war, possibly in part because we supported their government and thus their brutality.
Don't forget the other 51 countries/dictatorships that also participated like Ireland, Norway, Poland.
Former CIA Director Hayden: We Didn't Lie About Interrogation Program. Torture Report: Yeah, You Did. REPEATEDLY. [TechDirt]
President Obama says the torture program ended in 2009. That's not what I found in Somalia two years later. [The Nation]
It is very hard to listen to this without punching a hole through the wall. Fox News reacts to CIA torture report.
Frankly, I wouldn't have if I'd been in charge of making the report for fear of either...
1. Becoming a "terrorist" and being detained.
2. Wanting to murder any non-human human being who thought doing any of this was ok.
CIA hid torture memos from ACLU FOIA lawyers while selectively leaking info to reporters to try to look better. http://justsecurity.org/18242/glomar...
After the April 15, 2005 National Security Principals Committee meeting, the CIA drafted an extensive document describing the CIA’s Detention and Interrogation Program for an anticipated media campaign. CIA attorneys, discussing aspects of the campaign involving off-the-record disclosures, cautioned against attributing the information to the CIA itself. One senior attorney stated that the proposed press briefing was “minimally acceptable, but only if not attributed to a CIA official.” The CIA attorney continued: “This should be attributed to an ‘official knowledgeable’ about the program (or some similar obfuscation), but should not be attributed to a CIA or intelligence official.”Referring to CIA efforts to deny Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests for previously acknowledged information, the attorney noted that, “[o]ur Glomar fig leaf is getting pretty thin.” Another CIA attorney noted that the draft “makes the [legal] declaration I just wrote about the secrecy of the interrogation program a work of fiction.”
Dick Cheney says the CIA didn't go rogue, but that 'rectal rehydration' was not on the approved list of interrogation techniques. I swear this guy is pulling a 'you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall' like it's going to preserve his legacy.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/vice-...
He also throws Bush under the bus, which even the Democrats handling the report seemed not to want to do. So yay?
He also throws Bush under the bus, which even the Democrats handling the report seemed not to want to do. So yay?
To be fair, I assumed that was Bush's purpose from the beginning.
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