Torture (American Exceptionalism in Tatters)

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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/09/the-most-gruesome-moments-in-the-cia-torture-report.html

Not quoting any of that because it's too grotesque. Horror movie level stuff. I think we can close the book on whether the Bush era marked a low point in America's history.

Eh. I really don't care what they do to terrorists. What I do care about is possible retaliation for brutal methods that are ineffective. If the torture was effective and produced good intel, I'd almost be okay with it, these are horrible human beings after all. But since it is both ineffective and will garner ill-will, it seems stupid to continue with the practice.

Nevin73 wrote:

Eh. I really don't care what they do to terrorists. What I do care about is possible retaliation for brutal methods that are ineffective. If the torture was effective and produced good intel, I'd almost be okay with it, these are horrible human beings after all. But since it is both ineffective and will garner ill-will, it seems stupid to continue with the practice.

time for a thread name change:
American Idealism in Tatters.

I'm not surprised though, when the Snowden stuff came to light we should have been on the street by the millions, instead we got no one.
Though if you look at the police brutality protests going on now, it's clear we've had bigger problems for quite some time.
I still bristle when China claims we don't have a high moral ground, but it's becoming less of a bristle every time.

RolandofGilead wrote:

I still bristle when China claims we don't have a high moral ground, but it's becoming less of a bristle every time.

We've never had the moral high ground. That was another lie of American exceptionalism.

Nevin73 wrote:

Eh. I really don't care what they do to alleged terrorists.

Added a crucial missing word to your statement, because we've learned over the years that a LOT of the "terrorists" we unfairly detained without any appeals process were anything but.

Did this report uncover anything new? I thought the water boarding and sleep deprivation stuff was already common knowledge, not that it makes it any more palatable.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tortu...

Spoiler:

The report highlights one interrogation session with the CIA’s first detainee, Abu Zabaydah, in which he became “completely unresponsive with bubbles rising through his open full mouth.” Additionally, at least five detainees were subjected to “rectal feeding” or “rectal hydration.”

Sounds a bit worse then water boarding and sleep deprivation.

Nomad wrote:

Did this report uncover anything new? I thought the water boarding and sleep deprivation stuff was already common knowledge, not that it makes it any more palatable.

They killed a few people, tortured a fairly large number of innocent men (at least one of whom they killed), including several of their own informants, lied to just about every oversight agency involved, lied about torture leading to information about terrorist plots (this is pretty much anything the CIA said led to a terrorist plot, btw), introduced the wholey new and innovative concept of 'rectal feeding' (which, shockingly, caused a number of medical problems in the prisoners for whom it was used), put people with broken limbs into stress positions, and a whole host of other nasty details.

So yeah, while my expectations were not high for this thing, the CIA did manage to exceed them.

OG_slinger wrote:
RolandofGilead wrote:

I still bristle when China claims we don't have a high moral ground, but it's becoming less of a bristle every time.

We've never had the moral high ground. That was another lie of American exceptionalism.

And if you have the slightest doubt of this, look up the history of waterboarding. This sort of thing has been going on for well over a century now. Americans are experts at willfully ignoring the unpleasant aspects of our empire.

Nevin73 wrote:

Eh. I really don't care what they do to terrorists. What I do care about is possible retaliation for brutal methods that are ineffective. If the torture was effective and produced good intel, I'd almost be okay with it, these are horrible human beings after all. But since it is both ineffective and will garner ill-will, it seems stupid to continue with the practice.

Accused terrorists. Accused. Innocent people were tortured in that prison.

How many innocent? All of them. None of them were allowed to examine the evidence against them, and be held accountable by a jury of their peers.

Rather, a faceless spook decided they were guilty, and tortured them.... sometimes to death.

More than a few of my right wing friends have been screaming that the report does more harm to American interests than the actual torture did.

We know it's not an effective means of gaining reliable intel, irrc that's pretty well established now. So it's not about that, thus it seems more part of the whole American revenge-bent eye for an eye crap even if the individual being punished wasn't involved in what you're seeking revenge for.

these are horrible human beings after all

but still human beings. <- He says knowing a good number of torture supporters would disagree on the point as the usual tactics of making 'the enemy' into sub-human or monsters have been well employed.

Besides by those standards are those who engage in or enable needless and functionless torture not also horrible human beings? Is this really what America aspires to?

In the decades old history of the Latin American Dirty Wars, the observation that has consistently been reaffirmed regarding torture is that though it may not lead to actionable intelligence, it does a fantastic job of terrorizing a general population. Do it often enough and to enough people and people are terrified of your very presence to the point that they are incapable of even entertaining the idea of uprising.

Honestly, I think that is really what we were going for.

I don't have a working definition of "horrible human beings" but if I did, detaining people without trial and torturing them to death would be on the list.

I mean, I consider Chopper Read to have been a horrible human being and that's exactly what he did.

Paleocon wrote:

In the decades old history of the Latin American Dirty Wars, the observation that has consistently been reaffirmed regarding torture is that though it may not lead to actionable intelligence, it does a fantastic job of terrorizing a general population. Do it often enough and to enough people and people are terrified of your very presence to the point that they are incapable of even entertaining the idea of uprising.

Honestly, I think that is really what we were going for.

So the aim was to become terrorists? Which then makes you the group deserving of torture under the same reasoning?

Every person is deserving of dignity. Removing it from one lessens it for all.

krev82 wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

In the decades old history of the Latin American Dirty Wars, the observation that has consistently been reaffirmed regarding torture is that though it may not lead to actionable intelligence, it does a fantastic job of terrorizing a general population. Do it often enough and to enough people and people are terrified of your very presence to the point that they are incapable of even entertaining the idea of uprising.

Honestly, I think that is really what we were going for.

So the aim was to become terrorists? Which then makes you the group deserving of torture under the same reasoning?

It is precisely what we have taught at the School of the Americas for generations now. Terrorism on a grand scale has been an integral part of American foreign policy longer than either of us has been alive.

This pretty much solidifies the US as the Bad Guys, doesn't it? Torture, invasion, government organizations acting illegally in secret, international intimidation, propping up of terrorist or terrorist-like foreign governments for political gain, aggressive crackdowns on internal civilian populations... Even American elections are becoming more and more rigged by those in power (thinking specifically of gerrymandering and "voter fraud prevention" laws). Isn't this the point where the world needs to help free the American populace?

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

This pretty much solidifies the US as the Bad Guys, doesn't it? Torture, invasion, government organizations acting illegally in secret, international intimidation, propping up of terrorist or terrorist-like foreign governments for political gain, aggressive crackdowns on internal civilian populations... Even American elections are becoming more and more rigged by those in power (thinking specifically of gerrymandering and "voter fraud prevention" laws). Isn't this the point where the world needs to help free the American populace?

Yeah, I don't know. Would the bad guys release a huge report documenting their own failure in the hopes of making changes to rectify the situation at their own potential peril? Sure, this report is bad news, but hopefully it leads to steps in the right direction.

Paleocon wrote:

It is precisely what we have taught at the School of the Americas for generations now. Terrorism on a grand scale has been an integral part of American foreign policy longer than either of us has been alive.

This, by the way, is absolutely true.

If you want to really understand American foreign policy, our actual goals in the world, look into that.

Sure, this report is bad news, but hopefully it leads to steps in the right direction.

Admitting that there's a problem isn't exactly easy, but it's a lot easier than fixing it.

Nomad wrote:

Sure, this report is bad news, but hopefully it leads to steps in the right direction.

Amen, brother.

Nevin73 wrote:

Eh. I really don't care what they do to terrorists. What I do care about is possible retaliation for brutal methods that are ineffective. If the torture was effective and produced good intel, I'd almost be okay with it, these are horrible human beings after all. But since it is both ineffective and will garner ill-will, it seems stupid to continue with the practice.

I had naively thought we would get further into the thread before someone justified the practice. First page I expected, but not first response.

I guess my take is that the ends never really justify the means. If that is what it takes to fight terror - we have already lost.

Nomad wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

This pretty much solidifies the US as the Bad Guys, doesn't it? Torture, invasion, government organizations acting illegally in secret, international intimidation, propping up of terrorist or terrorist-like foreign governments for political gain, aggressive crackdowns on internal civilian populations... Even American elections are becoming more and more rigged by those in power (thinking specifically of gerrymandering and "voter fraud prevention" laws). Isn't this the point where the world needs to help free the American populace?

Yeah, I don't know. Would the bad guys release a huge report documenting their own failure in the hopes of making changes to rectify the situation at their own potential peril? Sure, this report is bad news, but hopefully it leads to steps in the right direction.

I hope you are right. And while I know you will vote wrong in every election I am glad we can agree about this.

Keep in mind that the whole School of the Americas thing and the constant policy of terrorizing brown people in Latin America was driven by the legit fear that giving the Soviets a base on our continent from which to toss some of their myriad thermonuclear weapons was contrary to our existential interests. Under those circumstances, though clearly terrible, our actions had *some* justification.

In sharp contrast, the fact that 19 primitives crashed some planes and have the ability to kidnap some journalists seems pretty bush league in comparison. The fact that we spent, literally, trillions of dollars, invaded an uninvolved country, tortured innocents, and murdered 3000 of our own servicemen and women in response demonstrates to me that our generation sucks ass and probably deserves to be hit by that asteroid the next time it comes around.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

This pretty much solidifies the US as the Bad Guys, doesn't it? Torture, invasion, government organizations acting illegally in secret, international intimidation, propping up of terrorist or terrorist-like foreign governments for political gain, aggressive crackdowns on internal civilian populations... Even American elections are becoming more and more rigged by those in power (thinking specifically of gerrymandering and "voter fraud prevention" laws). Isn't this the point where the world needs to help free the American populace?

As an entity on the world stage, I'd broadly say yes. As a country made up of all sorts of different people, it's a bit unfair since the information was released in some form by the "system". I don't like the comparisons between the USA and other countries under seriously awful oppressive regimes. You can draw some pretty sturdy parallels, but the scope and depth of those things aren't nearly as bad yet. Yeah: yet. I will grant that.

The fact that many people are more worried about what the report does for our image as a country rather than what those actions did for our image as a country are part of the problem. The problem is not just that this happened, it's the response by the average citizen that perpetuates it. As has been pointed out, from a reasonable perspective, the USA is very good at taking the sorts of actions we condemn and much of our population justifying it somehow. I was talking with my roommate about this last night - we just don't talk about the Japanese camps here, not really. It's a mix of thinking "it probably wasn't that bad, we're not like Nazi Germany or anything" and just wanting to pretend it didn't happen at all.

Bloo Driver wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

This pretty much solidifies the US as the Bad Guys, doesn't it? Torture, invasion, government organizations acting illegally in secret, international intimidation, propping up of terrorist or terrorist-like foreign governments for political gain, aggressive crackdowns on internal civilian populations... Even American elections are becoming more and more rigged by those in power (thinking specifically of gerrymandering and "voter fraud prevention" laws). Isn't this the point where the world needs to help free the American populace?

As an entity on the world stage, I'd broadly say yes. As a country made up of all sorts of different people, it's a bit unfair since the information was released in some form by the "system". I don't like the comparisons between the USA and other countries under seriously awful oppressive regimes. You can draw some pretty sturdy parallels, but the scope and depth of those things aren't nearly as bad yet. Yeah: yet. I will grant that.

The fact that many people are more worried about what the report does for our image as a country rather than what those actions did for our image as a country are part of the problem. The problem is not just that this happened, it's the response by the average citizen that perpetuates it. As has been pointed out, from a reasonable perspective, the USA is very good at taking the sorts of actions we condemn and much of our population justifying it somehow. I was talking with my roommate about this last night - we just don't talk about the Japanese camps here, not really. It's a mix of thinking "it probably wasn't that bad, we're not like Nazi Germany or anything" and just wanting to pretend it didn't happen at all.

Did Nazi Germany expose itself to risk and publish scathing reports on its own treatment of Jews? Did it entertain the distinct possibility that it's actions were wrong and the ends did not justify the means? Was the government in any way called to account by its people?

How we respond to this report remains to be seen, but it's far too early to Godwin the U.S. just yet.

Not entirely sure you read what I wrote there, maybe just saw "Nazi Germany" and jumped the gun some.

One could make the argument that publishing a scathing report and then having a slap fight between those who mock it and those who want to change it is actually a far more effective method of justifying our brutal behavior than the Germans or Russians or Chinese implement.

Actually South Park already did that. We're the Bad Guy that Wants To Change.

(But never does.)

Nomad wrote:

Did Nazi Germany expose itself to risk and publish scathing reports on its own treatment of Jews? Did it entertain the distinct possibility that it's actions were wrong and the ends did not justify the means? Was the government in any way called to account by its people?

Yes. Holy sh*t yes. Even when the consequences were lethal.

The comments that the ones who were tortured were "alleged" terrorists are valid.

The reality is that we (the US) have never been the "good guys" despite our national identity. We had one shining moment in the world and that was WW2. We've been riding on those laurels ever since. But anyone who knows their history will recognize that we have a long bloody history of mistreating people that don't "matter" to us. The list of peoples that we have abused is long. And we have always thought we were the "good guys" even as we follow through on our crimes against humanity.

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