Marvel Media (This is the spoiler thread, Q-Stone - You're welcome)

Just saw Captain Marvel yesterday. It was... okay?

I see a lot of critics complaining that the main character didn't have much of an arc. They're half-right. Her arc was learning not to listen to anyone. The Jude Law character who is set up to be her mentor turns out to be part of a conspiracy to gaslight her. Okay, fine. She stops listening to him and instantly becomes the most powerful force in the MCU.

It's as if the central conflict of Star Wars were between Luke and Uncle Owen, and when Luke finally got up the gumption to tell Uncle Owen to shove it, he flew straight off to defeat Darth Vader and blow up the Death Star without needing to learn the ways of the Force from Obi-Wan and Yoda first. Or as if Neo just sort of woke himself up from the Matrix without needing Morpheus to train and guide him.

I think that's a fine character arc, conceptually. The problem is that the bit where she's gaslit is just exposition, so there's no real character development or catharsis for when the showdown happens.

I dug the "I don't need to prove anything to you moment", but I never felt she needed to *before* that either. It's basically a great gif, with the same emotional impact in the context of the movie as it has removed from it.

Vargen wrote:
farley3k wrote:

No it was 2d but that gives me hope for the dvd release.

Do they have 3D shows in that auditorium? If so then somebody might have left the 3d lens on the projector.

I really enjoyed the film. I think it works better as an episode of Marvel Cinematic Universe than it does as a stand-alone work, but I mean that as an observation rather than a complaint. I'm really looking forward to seeing Carol interact with the Avengers in a few weeks.

Wow, I hadn't even thought about the potential of it being a screwup with 2D/3D settings. Fun.

Back when I was a college student I paid the bills during the summers working at the local independently owned theater, where I spent a lot of time palling around with the old school career projectionists. They took pride in the fact that our theater only employed properly trained folks to do the job, and allowed them to do their job well. But, even then they recognized that the coming wave of consolidation and corporatization of the theater industry meant their kind of professionalism was on the way out the door for good — modern technology meant that it really didn’t take much to train people on the basics anymore, and the finer details just weren’t going to be worth paying their rates, particularly for larger companies looking to squeeze every penny from their operations.

Anyway, back then one of their biggest pet peeves was when theaters would run their projection bulbs dim and/or use them past their expiration date, resulting in really disappointing viewing experiences. They predicted that it would become far more common in coming years due to a nasty combination of cost saving measures and a lack of experience on the part of barely trained projectionists not knowing any better.

And, sure enough a year or two later Regal bought that theater, and that prediction proved distressingly accurate. Very quickly it became the case that maybe 30% to 50% of the time it was clear that they were running their bulbs dim, or otherwise screwing up the projection in a way that resulted in a dark, washed out picture. So now even though it’s still the closest theater to me (by about 20 miles), as much as possible I drive to neighboring areas to watch movies at newer theaters that market themselves on providing premium audio/visual experiences (and even then I still encounter miserably sub par projection from time to time).

Anyway, for Captain Marvel I took a chance on the local theater, and paid the price with dim projection. Exciting to realize that on top of time honored projection screwups like bungling focus and using dim bulbs, the advent of 3D now gives undertrained projectionists a new way to screw up the experience, even when I go out of my way to see a traditional 2D print of a movie. Weeeee!

Oh, and on a more directly relevant note, I did still enjoy the movie and love the new character and what she brings to the world of superhero soap operas. Pretty excited at the idea of seeing her mix it up with Thor, too. In fact, my first thought leaving the movie was that she’d work wonderfully with the style of story telling and character interaction that Taika Waititi brought to the party in Thor Ragnarok (and that the Russo brothers stuck with to a certain degree during the Thor/Guardians segments of Infinity War). So I was pretty happy to see that the new trailer for Endgame, hints that we might get at least a bit of that there.

But, you know, I sure wouldn’t complain if Hemsworth extended his contract and did another movie directed by Waititi that ended up just being a Thor/Carol Danvers buddy cop movie the way Ragnarok was really a Thor/Hulk one.

zeroKFE wrote:

But, you know, I sure wouldn’t complain if Hemsworth extended his contract and did another movie directed by Waititi that ended up just being a Thor/Carol Danvers buddy cop movie the way Ragnarok was really a Thor/Hulk one.

I would be all over this!

I'm a fan of the Guardians movies, but I'm an even bigger fan of denying things to rape-enthusiast nazi-suckling trolls seeking to silence people who rightfully criticize that moron they all rallied around by stirring up flagrantly disingenuous campaigns, so I'm quite pleased that Gunn is back.

Yup.

Sometimes in war you defend a position because it's full of innocent civilians and you have to protect them.

Sometimes you defend some god-forsaken, wind-swept hill because if you hold it, you check the advance of the enemy.

zeroKFE wrote:

But, you know, I sure wouldn’t complain if Hemsworth extended his contract and did another movie directed by Waititi that ended up just being a Thor/Carol Danvers buddy cop movie the way Ragnarok was really a Thor/Hulk one.

Thor and Rocket.

MannishBoy wrote:
zeroKFE wrote:

But, you know, I sure wouldn’t complain if Hemsworth extended his contract and did another movie directed by Waititi that ended up just being a Thor/Carol Danvers buddy cop movie the way Ragnarok was really a Thor/Hulk one.

Thor and Rocket.

I had a dream last night (seriously) about seeing a Thor Ragnarok sequel. But instead of teaming up with Captain Marvel the big reveal was that Professor X was in it. So consider that a hot reveal of the next Thor movie.

DSGamer wrote:
MannishBoy wrote:
zeroKFE wrote:

But, you know, I sure wouldn’t complain if Hemsworth extended his contract and did another movie directed by Waititi that ended up just being a Thor/Carol Danvers buddy cop movie the way Ragnarok was really a Thor/Hulk one.

Thor and Rocket.

I had a dream last night (seriously) about seeing a Thor Ragnarok sequel. But instead of teaming up with Captain Marvel the big reveal was that Professor X was in it. So consider that a hot reveal of the next Thor movie.

In 5 days, Marvel gets the Xmen back when Disney closes the acquisition.

MannishBoy wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
MannishBoy wrote:
zeroKFE wrote:

But, you know, I sure wouldn’t complain if Hemsworth extended his contract and did another movie directed by Waititi that ended up just being a Thor/Carol Danvers buddy cop movie the way Ragnarok was really a Thor/Hulk one.

Thor and Rocket.

I had a dream last night (seriously) about seeing a Thor Ragnarok sequel. But instead of teaming up with Captain Marvel the big reveal was that Professor X was in it. So consider that a hot reveal of the next Thor movie.

In 5 days, Marvel gets the Xmen back when Disney closes the acquisition.

*chris_pratt_oh.gif*

Tanglebones wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:

I get the Drax/Mantis stuff is offensive, but isn't it also a bit redeeming that Gamora is the only adult in the mix?

No?

I’m pretty disappointed in Gamora’s development. For all the proclamations that she’s “the fiercest woman in the galaxy”, she’s...not. She’s mostly played up early on as a tough fighter as the setup for romantic tension. Once that’s more-or-less consummated she’s just a green woman.

Gamora has a good arc. At least I think so.

Taken from her family in her youth as her home planet suffers Thanos' population culling.

Raised by Thanos, against her will, for the singular purpose to become a fierce warrior.

Forced to do battle against her adoptive sister, Nebula, and succumbing to a desire to win at all costs. Nebula, who just wanted a sister, could never go all-out and instead suffered the consequences of defeat, over and over again.

Choosing to turn on Ronan The Accuser, Nebula, and Thanos, on her own, the very definition of overwhelming odds, knowing what the infinity stones could enable.

Knocking Quill, and Rocket with Groot, around with relative ease in an effort to acquire a stone.

Slowly forming bonds with the Guardians, especially Quill, after being arrested, detained, and escaping, as a team, before setting off on a quest of necessity. Becoming a family. Learning of music, and dancing!

Going through major turbulence with Nebula, before making peace with one another, and even working together to stop Thanos. Rekindling their relationship, slowly.

Seeing through Ego and laying the foundations of doubt for Quill to also see.

Thinking she had killed Thanos, with real emotional cost, only for it to be an illusion taken back from her. Seeing Quill keep his word, her desire, not his, and pull the trigger to end her life, only for Thanos to take that from her too. Thanos then hurls her to her presumed demise, knowing he somehow contorted his kidnapping and forced upbringing as love, granting him the stone for his sacrifice.

Gamora is arguably the most interesting Guardian. I cannot say as much about the others. And alongside Nebula has the most reason to, and perhaps the most invested support from audiences, due to storytelling, to somehow end Thanos. It means more. I'd love for Gamora and / or Nebula to be the one(s) to do it. Never mind Tony Stark, or Carol Danvers. They can provide the opening, cause distraction, run interference. I want to see Thanos' face when his daughter(s) land the blow. (Wishful fandom!)

My family and I thought Captain Marvel was great!

hbi2k wrote:

I see a lot of critics complaining that the main character didn't have much of an arc. They're half-right. Her arc was learning not to listen to anyone. The Jude Law character who is set up to be her mentor turns out to be part of a conspiracy to gaslight her. Okay, fine. She stops listening to him and instantly becomes the most powerful force in the MCU.

Yeah, I think you are really mischaracterizing here. Carol was a confident woman who had been listening to herself for years, but due to events that happened (amnesia, etc.) she lost that ability. When she regains her sense of self, she learns she has cosmic power as well. Overall, it feels very similar to many other Marvel hero arcs in the MCU.

Aristophan wrote:
hbi2k wrote:

I see a lot of critics complaining that the main character didn't have much of an arc. They're half-right. Her arc was learning not to listen to anyone. The Jude Law character who is set up to be her mentor turns out to be part of a conspiracy to gaslight her. Okay, fine. She stops listening to him and instantly becomes the most powerful force in the MCU.

Yeah, I think you are really mischaracterizing here. Carol was a confident woman who had been listening to herself for years, but due to events that happened (amnesia, etc.) she lost that ability. When she regains her sense of self, she learns she has cosmic power as well. Overall, it feels very similar to many other Marvel hero arcs in the MCU.

The script and the direction may be to blame. It wasn't the greatest of woven tales as much as it were buzzword scenes stitched together. The film did not flow too well. It did not provide enough opportunity for investment. Select moments do stand well on their own. And investment can be found with a little additional thought. Overall, though, standalone, start to finish, it felt disjointed and rushed. The fact it still came good, for so many, is truly something.

It would have helped, I think, to see more of Danvers before her powers activated, where she was overcoming different hurdles in the face of scrutiny and deterrent. Like Steve Rogers, before he became a super soldier, but instead of overcoming physical weakness and susceptibility to physical ailments, in the face of bullying and mockery, Danvers was overcoming sexist barriers in the face of misogynistic behaviour, showing she was quick enough, strong enough, smart enough. Audiences rally behind this stuff. Carol Danvers got short changed with a few lame flashback moments that had no journey, no antagonist, and no redemption.

More of Carol Danvers as an individual who stands up for and in front of those in need. Again, as with Steve Rogers, who took a beating, and threw himself on a grenade, for the benefit of others. Get that stuff out there, and early.

Also, how her memory loss and memory fragments regained was handled left little room for distress, or for grief, which is cathartic and can make audiences feel. We had nonplussed and confused which whilst sad in their own way have less impact. To keep with Steve Rogers, he had the loss of Bucky Barnes, and Peggy Carter, amongst others as he faced the end, to humanize him. To see more than just the power set.

I like the character Carol Danvers, from comics, and wish she'd been introduced with a better script, maybe with a different director. What we got was still good, though. Danvers and Fury had a good camaraderie. Her power level was introduced. Her moral compass and unyielding determination was on show. I can totally see the disconnect some have, though. I saw it as well.

I don't think Carol Danvers had much of an arc, but I don't think there's much of an arc in any of the intro movies. Tony Stark's arc in Iron Man is to be less of a dick, and realize the weapons he makes kill people. Steve Rogers' arc in his fist movie is he was a little guy who wanted to stand up to bullies, and then . . . he was a bigger guy who stood up to bullies. Thor's entire arc is "hey maybe be less of a jerk". Now, they get long, multi-movie arcs where they get loads of character development, but I didn't feel she had much less character development than pretty much everybody else.

Superheros don't need arcs. I don't necessarily want Batman to change. I want him to solve problems and overcome challenges by being Batman.

I don't know Captain Marvel well enough to hold the same opinion about her up front, but if the filmmakers can make her compelling enough that I do then she doesn't need an arc either.

Robin Laws has a whole thing about iconic heroes as opposed to dramatic heroes. I've picked up on the idea by listening to "Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff" for a few years, but I'm having trouble Googling up a good summary. This is the best I can find.

Vargen wrote:

Superheros don't need arcs. I don't necessarily want Batman to change. I want him to solve problems and overcome challenges by being Batman.

I don't know Captain Marvel well enough to hold the same opinion about her up front, but if the filmmakers can make her compelling enough that I do then she doesn't need an arc either.

Robin Laws has a whole thing about iconic heroes as opposed to dramatic heroes. I've picked up on the idea by listening to "Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff" for a few years, but I'm having trouble Googling up a good summary. This is the best I can find.

This is the one I remember.

Finally got a chance to see Captain Marvel due to a busy work schedule. Definitely one of my Top 5 MCU movies.

mudbunny wrote:

Saw it today, and something I saw (on FB I think) really resonated.

Captain America keeps getting up because it is the right thing to do.
Captain Marvel keeps getting up because "F*CK YOU!"

This is a quote by Kelly Sue DeConnick, who is basically the creator of the modern incarnation of Captain Marvel in the comics. Goose is taken directly from DeConnick’s run, though he was named Chewie in the comics and had a personal rivalry with Rocket Raccoon.
DeConnick also briefly appears in the movie, she’s the woman with maroon hair that walks past Carol on the train platform after the chase.

This was pretty interesting to watch.

The Limitations of the Marvel Cinematic Universe PART 1

Willems is great. I found myself nodding with a lot of what he has to say, and it helps that he's pretty funny.

OMG this is ADORABLE.