Rules of Defensive Driving

Nevin, you might want to consider that you are, in fact, one of the problem drivers people deal with. The nature if this thread is how to defend against people that have driving philosophies that are detrimental to the overall safety on the road, regardless of how valid they feel their philosophy is.

The best rule of thumb is whether you are trying to accommodate other drivers or affect how other drivers drive. That's why I called out the posts that supported antagonizing aggressive drivers before. If you are driving too close in order to get people to move over, which they should, you are increasing the danger to everyone.

Defensive driving, in addition to careful attentiveness to details, is about accommodating everyone you meet, drivers and pedestrians included.

Jayhawker wrote:

Nevin, you might want to consider that you are, in fact, one of the problem drivers people deal with. The nature if this thread is how to defend against people that have driving philosophies that are detrimental to the overall safety on the road, regardless of how valid they feel their philosophy is.

The best rule of thumb is whether you are trying to accommodate other drivers or affect how other drivers drive. That's why I called out the posts that supported antagonizing aggressive drivers before. If you are driving too close in order to get people to move over, which they should, you are increasing the danger to everyone.

Defensive driving, in addition to careful attentiveness to details, is about accommodating everyone you meet, drivers and pedestrians included.

You are, of course, right. I agree that my driving style may make others nervous. I am what I am and I'm probably not going to change. I was trying to point out that (most, some?) aggressive drivers are not out to be blatant assholes. Instead they just want others, for whatever reason, to get out of their way. So to stay on topic with the thread, I would suggest that a strong tenant of defensive driving should be to try to stay out of everyone else's way and move over when you can. If the flow of traffic keeps moving, everyone can relax and jam out to their radio.

Nevin73 wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

Nevin, you might want to consider that you are, in fact, one of the problem drivers people deal with. The nature if this thread is how to defend against people that have driving philosophies that are detrimental to the overall safety on the road, regardless of how valid they feel their philosophy is.

The best rule of thumb is whether you are trying to accommodate other drivers or affect how other drivers drive. That's why I called out the posts that supported antagonizing aggressive drivers before. If you are driving too close in order to get people to move over, which they should, you are increasing the danger to everyone.

Defensive driving, in addition to careful attentiveness to details, is about accommodating everyone you meet, drivers and pedestrians included.

You are, of course, right. I agree that my driving style may make others nervous. I am what I am and I'm probably not going to change. I was trying to point out that (most, some?) aggressive drivers are not out to be blatant assholes. Instead they just want others, for whatever reason, to get out of their way. So to stay on topic with the thread, I would suggest that a strong tenant of defensive driving should be to try to stay out of everyone else's way and move over when you can. If the flow of traffic keeps moving, everyone can relax and jam out to their radio.

"Staying out of someone's way" includes not tailgating them.

Very true. But then I'm not a defensive driver.

Jonman wrote:

"Staying out of someone's way" includes not tailgating them.

Or to put it into "Rules of Defensive Driving" terminology...
Always assume the person in front of you has no idea you are behind them. Maintain a safety zone and accelerate only if the lane is clear.

So I guess the next rule is...?

- Given that people are going to drive aggressively and never going to change, defend yourselves and change your driving style in whatever way makes you safer.

IMAGE(http://www.dvice.com/sites/dvice/files/styles/content_panes_media/public/images/lithuanian-mayor-tank.jpg?itok=Kwv9hvkL)

DSGamer wrote:

So I guess the next rule is...?

- Given that people are going to drive aggressively and never going to change, defend yourselves and change your driving style in whatever way makes you safer.

I thought that this really was the heart of the idea of defensive driving? To exercise precaution because of the unpredictability of the roadways.

Nevin73 wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

So I guess the next rule is...?

- Given that people are going to drive aggressively and never going to change, defend yourselves and change your driving style in whatever way makes you safer.

I thought that this really was the heart of the idea of defensive driving? To exercise precaution because of the unpredictability of the roadways.

The bolded is the key difference. I know I've been sarcastic in this thread. It's really really frustrating that there are people in this world who are literally willing to say they aren't going to change, they aren't going to adapt, they're just going to continue being dangerous and everyone else needs to adjust. It's even more frustrating if, like me, you've been in 4 collisions, including one that destroyed your life. But your last post really made me think that maybe you're doing us a service here. You're reminding us that there are people out there who refuse to drive safely and that you have to take every measure humanly possible to defend yourself. Including, but not limited to the previous recommendations others have posted as well as...

- Don't be near a street if you can help it. Car, bike, pedestrian, whatever.
- If you have to be on a street, then drive. Don't bike or walk or ride a motorcycle. Just drive.
- If you don't feel safe enough or can afford it, drive the largest vehicle legally allowed.
- Employ whatever legal countermeasures you find necessary.

Given that people are going to drive aggressively and never going to change, defend yourselves and change your driving style in whatever way makes you safer.

Wow, you've kind of gone off the rails there, DSGamer.

Among other problems, you're confusing speed with aggressive driving.

Speed is not really a problem, most of the time. Aggressive driving usually is.

They are not the same thing, and lumping them together like that merely confuses the issue. You're upset about assholes, and reacting out of anger, when we're talking about the normal people.

By definition, please note.... the 85% speed level.

after multiple edits:

It's really important to split those two things up. If you keep conflating speed with unsafe driving, you're preventing yourself from thinking about the problem in a constructive way.

Driving fast is not the same as driving recklessly.

I learned to drive and got my license at 30, somewhat reluctantly but my wife was tired of doing all the driving. Learning to drive at 30 is, I assume, a world away from learning at 16. I didn't (don't) have the inarguable belief in my invincibility that all teenagers have. Every time I get in the car, I can't help thinking, "Is this the time I crash?" Not because I'm worried about my driving, but because I'm worried about everyone else on the road. (I'm also weirdly more worried about damage to the car than injury.) I imagine anyone who starts learning to drive with that belief in their own immortality, and gradually replaces that over the years with a belief in their own expertness at driving and rationalized bad habits makes for a dangerous cocktail, i.e. the attitude of your average driver, which to the detriment of my mental (though not physical) well-being, I've missed.

So this thread, in its original intent, really interests me. I'd always thought about starting a "Come fellow adult new drivers thread, we must chat" thread but never did. Out of all the personal rules there could be, the one I'm really trying to internalize as an iron-clad law is this:

Zoso1701 wrote:

I've learned that the only person I'm in control of on the road is myself.

I'm naturally wired to enjoy following rules—it's why I love video games and board games and role-playing games, understanding and obeying rules and watching a beautiful system whirr into life—so I follow the rules of the road. My wife calls me Captain Slow (as in James May from Top Gear) because I dare to do things like not drive wildly above the limit. DSGamer's Dinosaur Comics post hits the nail on the head: following the rules (i.e. the f*cking laws) is utterly important in driving given the stakes—something I truly appreciate as an adult new driver. Or just as an adult, period.

So I have to learn not to fume about other drivers not following the rules. My wife and I hugely enjoy venting, but what's the point: it won't change how they drive, and it only makes us feel better until the next bad driver. (We're also trying to watch our mouths and attitudes now that our daughter hears and repeats everything.) They're going to do what they're going to do, and they're not going to be the last one I see in my life—so as long as I'm driving properly and keeping myself safe, that's the best I can do.

Obviously I wish there was a cop, or Lakitu, always present, but when not, just let it slide, and know that I am not a colossal asshole because I arrived at the next red light one second behind this colossal asshole.

LarryC: I've seen the Manila episode of Don't Drive Here. I can't believe defensive driving is even possible there. More power to you.

In writing that wall-o'-text, I remember another personal rule for defensive driving:

Don't worry about the car behind you.

Obviously be aware of the car behind you, brake gradually, signal early, etc; but what it means is don't let the car behind you pressure or intimidate you.

Yes, Nevin, that means you. I like you, Nevin, but this is a serious topic and there's no two ways about it: aggressive driving is being a blatant asshole, and you, in your professed driving style, are being that asshole. Contrary to your belief, you can change though.

If I'm obeying the rules of the road, I will not let the guy behind me intimidate me into doing something I don't feel is safe. I won't be intimidated into speeding up, into moving into a lane I shouldn't be in, into turning when I don't think it's safe. As far as my driving choices are concerned, the car behind me does not exist.

That cuts both ways: that also means I'm not going to deliberately slow or brake-check or otherwise antagonize someone behind me because that's distracting me from where my attention should be: in front of the car. (Actually, that cuts three ways, since I should believe that the car in front me doesn't know I'm there either—hence proper following distances, covering the brake when appropriate, etc.).

Malor wrote:
Given that people are going to drive aggressively and never going to change, defend yourselves and change your driving style in whatever way makes you safer.

Wow, you've kind of gone off the rails there, DSGamer.

I disagree. Nevin is positing that he and drivers like him will never change and will always drive aggressively. What am I missing?

Malor wrote:

Among other problems, you're confusing speed with aggressive driving.

Speed is not really a problem, most of the time. Aggressive driving usually is.

They are not the same thing, and lumping them together like that merely confuses the issue. You're upset about assholes, and reacting out of anger, when we're talking about the normal people.

By definition, please note.... the 85% speed level.

after multiple edits:

It's really important to split those two things up. If you keep conflating speed with unsafe driving, you're preventing yourself from thinking about the problem in a constructive way.

Driving fast is not the same as driving recklessly.

But Nevin has talked repeatedly about tailgating someone (i.e. driving recklessly) to get them to speed up and move over. What is the debate here? `

Nevin73 wrote:

For me, I think it is 1-3' off the other person's rear bumper. If I'm a car length behind the person (even if it does tend to be a SmartCar length), I don't see it as threatening, simply driving.

Sweet Mary Murphy! I barely park that close.

If you're a SmartCar length behind the person in front of you, what do you think you could do if anything actually happened? I don't mean that snarkily; I'm curious. At highway speeds, with 10' of space, whatever is going to happen has already happened by the time you realize it.

Malor wrote:

Driving fast is not the same as driving recklessly.

To be fair, few people drive recklessly at 10mph.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

To be fair, few people drive recklessly at 10mph. ;)

When the speedlimit is 70, doing 10 is pretty darned reckless

I thought one of the rationales behind the various speed limits (and helmet laws) was that emergency personnel got tired of scraping brains off the pavement.

clover wrote:

I thought one of the rationales behind the various speed limits (and helmet laws) was that emergency personnel got tired of scraping brains off the pavement.

Actually it's about federal tax dollars

Dr.Ghastly wrote:
clover wrote:

I thought one of the rationales behind the various speed limits (and helmet laws) was that emergency personnel got tired of scraping brains off the pavement.

Actually it's about federal tax dollars ;)

Scraping brains off pavement is expensive.

No, I am an asshole driver. Safety is not my primary concern when I drive, timeliness is. But I look at that as a product of the area I grew up in (Philly and its suburbs where aggressiveness is considered a virtue) and of my daily commute, which is about 60 miles each way. When you drive that much and actually tally up how much time you spend in a car, it gets depressing, so you want to spend as little time in the car as possible. Those aren't necessarily good reasons for my driving habits, but that's what they are.

I will say that I only get seriously aggressive when the others are (what I look on as) inconsiderate to, let's call it, society as a whole. Not just me, but to every other driver who wants to go their way at their speed. It could be 75mph or 100mph, it doesn't matter. If everyone moved over instead of just owning their lane, frustrations overall would be lessoned. I never understood people's reluctance to changing lanes.

While I've never been called sensitive, I do get that everyone's experiences color their perception on things. I have been in serious accidents, but never one in which I was driving. Hell, I haven't even gotten a ticket in years (knocking on wood furiously). I want to set my cruise control to 80 mph and drive.

Regarding my spacing to other cars, if the car in front of me stomps on their brakes, I trust that my own brakes will do their job and prepare to dump over to the shoulder. And if I do hit, I trust that the crush zones and airbags will do their jobs.

I'm not advocating that people drive like me. I'm trying to say that the most defensive thing that everyone can do is just stay out of everyone else's way.

And I'm going off the rails?

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/aSGGIwE.gif)

This thread just solidifies my conviction that driverless cars cannot get here fast enough...

Nevin, I don't know what to say.

Actually, I do know what to say, it's what I say in my head every time I encounter a selfish driver on the road. I guess the diplomatic way to say it would be that you are the reason I don't enjoy driving. The less diplomatic way would get me reprimanded by Certis. I don't know you as a whole person, but this side of yourself that you've decided to present is very... frustrating.

Nevin73 wrote:

Safety is not my primary concern when I drive, timeliness is.

Get your f*cking head screwed on straight

is the most I'll let myself say.

Driving fast just doesn't really do you that much of a favor though, does it? I mean the difference between getting somewhere 60 miles away when driving at 60mph versus 60 miles away at 70 mph is what, 6-7 minutes? Math majors, please interject.

I guess what I am asking is does driving aggressively really get you anywhere that much sooner?

SallyNasty wrote:

Driving fast just doesn't really do you that much of a favor though, does it? I mean the difference between getting somewhere 60 miles away when driving at 60mph versus 60 miles away at 70 mph is what, 6-7 minutes? Math majors, please interject.

I guess what I am askingis does driving aggressively really get you anywhere that much sooner?

KC to St. Louis is about 250 miles. Driving at 79 MPH is just over 3.16 hours. Driving 70 is 3.57 hours. So that is about 24 minutes difference. And since a fair amount of the drive is in more traffic in each city, plus the time through Columbia, it's going to be less than that.

If you're dead does that mean you've saved time or lost time?

SallyNasty wrote:

Driving fast just doesn't really do you that much of a favor though, does it? I mean the difference between getting somewhere 60 miles away when driving at 60mph versus 60 miles away at 70 mph is what, 6-7 minutes? Math majors, please interject.

I guess what I am asking is does driving aggressively really get you anywhere that much sooner?

No, but it feels like it, and that's what counts.

gewy wrote:

This thread just solidifies my conviction that driverless cars cannot get here fast enough...

We have a winner!

Seriously, I agree.

Farscry wrote:
gewy wrote:

This thread just solidifies my conviction that driverless cars cannot get here fast enough...

We have a winner!

Seriously, I agree.

I'm in. 100%. Hell, my only concern then will be how to force my 'driver' to take the longer route so I can finish the chapter.

Rezzy wrote:
Farscry wrote:
gewy wrote:

This thread just solidifies my conviction that driverless cars cannot get here fast enough...

We have a winner!

Seriously, I agree.

I'm in. 100%. Hell, my only concern then will be how to force my 'driver' to take the longer route so I can finish the chapter.

I find that a light tap on the back of the head with one's cane suffices when a gesture with one's monocle hasn't had the desired effect.

SallyNasty wrote:

Driving fast just doesn't really do you that much of a favor though, does it? I mean the difference between getting somewhere 60 miles away when driving at 60mph versus 60 miles away at 70 mph is what, 6-7 minutes? Math majors, please interject.

I guess what I am asking is does driving aggressively really get you anywhere that much sooner?

I had this realization at some point myself. And that's assuming stop lights and other gates don't negate all of your gains as well. It really only makes a noticeable difference on long distance drives.

Also +1 to all of Gravey's last post. I hope I never have to drive around Nevin because it's legitimately frightening. The idea that timeliness trumps safety is mind blowing to me. Similarly the idea that being "seriously aggressive" is really ever OK, let alone while driving a large potentially deadly machine.

SallyNasty wrote:

Driving fast just doesn't really do you that much of a favor though, does it? I mean the difference between getting somewhere 60 miles away when driving at 60mph versus 60 miles away at 70 mph is what, 6-7 minutes? Math majors, please interject.

I guess what I am asking is does driving aggressively really get you anywhere that much sooner?

It's not a matter of math. It's traffic. If you live on the on-ramp and your destination is on the off-ramp, then the exact 60 miles you're traversing can be shortened in terms of travel distance by about 5 minutes or so by speeding. The trade off is a greater risk of death and property damage.

If you have to pass by non-highway traffic, then the greater part of time saving can be managed by optimizing traversal through the non-highway space, usually accomplished simply by determining which lane is the fastest and sticking to it.

If you're living more than 1 hour away by commute on a car, what you want really isn't to drive aggressively. What you want is to aggressively lobby for a public transport system that will allow you to use multimodal transport. This way, you spend the majority of your commute reading or something, while still retaining the option to use a car.

I agree with Nevin on one thing - do not engage aggressive motorists. Stay away from them as much as possible, while keeping safe. Tragically, the problem of aggressive driving on a personal level is ultimately self-correcting. The best way to deal with it is to drive as defensively as possible so you don't get involved when an aggressive driver finally crashes.