Rules of Defensive Driving

Shoal07 wrote:

Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, when a car slows suddenly the driver is retained in his seat by applying pressure with his left foot against the floor or the car or the dead pedal. You could test this yourself by driving across a parking lot with your left leg tucked under your bottom, hitting the brake pedals with your right foot hard enough to engage ABS, and then observing what happens. Make sure there’s nothing around for you to hit, of course, because chances are you’re going to slam against the steering wheel pretty hard and lose some or all of the control you have of the car. You’re certainly going to lose any ability you have to modulate brake pressure during the episode; the weight of your body will be transmitted through the brake pedal and you won’t be able to stop braking until you’ve come to a halt.

The above scenario is why your high-school driving instructor wouldn’t let you left-foot brake. It’s not a reasonable way to operate a vehicle on the street at any kind of speed. If you’re in a car as a passenger and you see the driver using the left foot to slow said car, you should speak up. It’s dangerous and not advised, period.

That's a good point. If you make a sudden stop, your weight will shift forward, and crush the brake pedal, until you stop completely. This is what the dead pedal on the left side is for, to keep you in the seat and allow you modulation control of the brake with your right.

I don't know, I've had a few "oh sh*t" moments where I had to slam real hard on the brakes, and never had an issue with being tossed against the wheel. I tend to drive at 10 and 2, and when tensing up while braking, my arms kept me from being plastered against the wheel. I'm at the point now where braking with the left is just reflex; in a pinch, it's not something I even think about anymore.

To your other post, yeah, I see the potential problems there. I rest my left on the dead pedal as much as possible, and only really hover over the brake when I'm in heavy traffic or residential areas. The worst thing this has ever caused me is the occasional cramp in my calf.

LarryC wrote:
Cod wrote:
LarryC wrote:

Turning rule #1: always signal before a turn or lane change. Always signal at least five seconds before turning the wheel. Always look before making the change, especially at your blind spot. Turn or change lanes as gradually as traffic allows.

I was taught the basic sequence as "Mirror. Signal. Maneuver."

I've found that it pays to keep glancing back at the mirror after you signal. Just because you're signaling doesn't mean that drivers behind you will see or respect that. Motorcycles and bicycles filtering through traffic quickly on either side can swiftly come up between the signal and the maneuver. Cars, too, actually. People rapidly overtaking on the wrong side lane is a concern.

In particular, cars can have a blind spot on the opposite side of the driver and the A pillars can conceal two-wheeled vehicles. They assume you can see them, even when you don't. Got a few close calls that way, so I changed up my procedure.

Yeah - I always try to look at the space I'm going to be moving into and see that there's no-one in it, or currently moving into it. The possibility of a bike coming up quickly on the inside as I'm turning right scares me a lot.

A work colleague was killed and his daughter critically injured in a car crash two weeks ago at a four way stop, where the other driver didn't stop. Timely topic and reminder to assume the other driver is incompetent and stupid. (Hey I live in the state with the "Stupid Driver" law, so this is not entirely unreasonable...)

I prefer to view it this way. Not everyone is stupid, but everyone will behave stupidly at some point in their life. At this point, I think it's hard-coded into the human genetic code for some reason. Let's assume that 1% of motorists at any given instant are at their stupid moment for the year.

The probability of an accident occurring includes at least the percentage of stupid multiplied by the probability that you failed to account for it. 1%x100% = 1%, assuming you make no allowances whatsoever. Your own "allowance for stupidity" is the only factor you can affect at the moment you're behind the wheel. If you assume people are stupid half the time, you can cut your risk in half. If you just assume 100% incidence of stupidity, you can eliminate accident risk completely.

Of course, this doesn't work quite that neatly. It's impossible to predict how people will be stupid all the time, and of course, you're going to do something idiotic at some point, yourself.

1 - Fix your damn mirrors. Seriously. Properly setup mirrors virtually eliminate blind spots. Your side mirrors should just overlap the edges of your rearview mirror. This means that your driver side mirror shouldn't reflect your vehicle at all. (The passenger side mirror can somewhat; they tend to be curved a little more, and you can get away with more overlap.)

Setting your mirrors up this way will eliminate "classic" blind spots. In my vehicles, if I can't see a vehicle in my mirrors, either there isn't one, or I can see them in my peripheral vision. I still do a check, but I'm never surprised by what I see.

2 - Don't trust anybody. The guy with his blinker on probably won't turn; the lady hugging the lane markers is probably going to drift into your lane. Treat other people as hostile and incompetent. The absolute worst case scenario is you don't hit them with your car.

Nicholaas wrote:

I tend to drive at 10 and 2

Were you taught that way or is it just how you naturally hold the wheel? With airbags now 9 and 3 or 8 and 4 are supposed to be safer. 10 an 2 has an increased chance of messing up your arms if an airbag deploys.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

2 - Don't trust anybody. The guy with his blinker on probably won't turn; the lady hugging the lane markers is probably going to drift into your lane. Treat other people as hostile and incompetent. The absolute worst case scenario is you don't hit them with your car.

Basically, this. Never assume that intent = action. In an ideal world, it would, but people are distracted, preoccupied and probably shouldn't have a license in the first place.

I've learned that the only person I'm in control of on the road is myself. It's up to me to react to what everyone else does and be alert at all times. So, if I see the dude texting and driving, give him space. Idiots doing 90 in a 50? Let 'em pass and watch out for their buddies.

Naturally, law enforcement is never around to catch the jerks that nearly take me out, but they are guaranteed to get my tail light the minute it goes out.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

1 - Fix your damn mirrors. Seriously. Properly setup mirrors virtually eliminate blind spots. Your side mirrors should just overlap the edges of your rearview mirror. This means that your driver side mirror shouldn't reflect your vehicle at all. (The passenger side mirror can somewhat; they tend to be curved a little more, and you can get away with more overlap.)

Setting your mirrors up this way will eliminate "classic" blind spots. In my vehicles, if I can't see a vehicle in my mirrors, either there isn't one, or I can see them in my peripheral vision. I still do a check, but I'm never surprised by what I see.

My mirrors are already set up this way. In addition, I installed an extra-large rearview mirror aftermarket add-on. That said, I still miss motorcycles. Cars, not as much. Motorcyles, yes. So I still check. Of special mention is the ninja riders. These are riders who weave in traffic while they filter through at 60 kph. You glance at the driver side mirror, they're there. Check rearview and passenger side, not there. Signal, and then BAM, they're suddenly right in your blind spot as they violently switch from the left to the right side of the land in a split second, intending to pass you on the passenger side.

It's a lot worse when they're riding without headlights.

I know the mirror setup is supposed to eliminate the blind spot. But I also know empirically that I've directly not seen a car that I know is there. The mirror setup reduces the blind spot, but it's still there on my ride.

LarryC wrote:

I know the mirror setup is supposed to eliminate the blind spot. But I also know empirically that I've directly not seen a car that I know is there. The mirror setup reduces the blind spot, but it's still there on my ride.

Note that I said I still do a check.

I believe in personal responsibility and letting the chips fall where they may. If someone hits me, it'll be their fault and they will bear the bulk of the responsibility (and expense). If I f*ck up, then I'll like-wise own up to it. I will admit that I am an aggressive driver who believes that everything would work much better on the roads if everyone just did their best to get out of the way of everyone else.

Nevin73 wrote:

I believe in personal responsibility and letting the chips fall where they may. If someone hits me, it'll be their fault and they will bear the bulk of the responsibility (and expense).

But not necessarily the bulk of the suffering and pain. In other words, you Jump to Conclusions when you assume people who believe in defensive driving don't also believe in personal responsibility like you do. They may simply believe it's better to pay the costs of driving defensively than the costs of an accident that could have been avoided by driving defensively, regardless of who will bear the responsiblity and expense.

Sometimes the chips fall on your head and pop your skull Game of Thrones style. Other people probably just have a different attitude towards risk, not towards personal responsiblity.

Nevin73 wrote:

I will admit that I am an aggressive driver who believes that everything would work much better on the roads if everyone just did their best to get out of the way of everyone else.

So if I'm in the fast lane passing somebody, and you're behind me but want to go faster than me, what happens? I'm going as fast as I'm comfortable going, and I'm going faster than the people I'm passing. What's your expectation of me as a driver?

Oh, yeah:

3 - STOP f*ckING TAILGATING. Honestly. There is never a need to tailgate. Want to go faster than me, but don't think I notice you? Tap the horn. Flash your lights. Don't drive up my tailpipe. It's dangerous, makes other drivers nervous, and doesn't accomplish what you want.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:

I will admit that I am an aggressive driver who believes that everything would work much better on the roads if everyone just did their best to get out of the way of everyone else.

So if I'm in the fast lane passing somebody, and you're behind me but want to go faster than me, what happens? I'm going as fast as I'm comfortable going, and I'm going faster than the people I'm passing. What's your expectation of me as a driver?

It depends on how fast you are "passing". Some people to take miles to pass a car. That isn't passing. That is blocking the lane by staying a nose of ahead of someone in the next lane. I would argue that it is your responsibility to make sure you are either passing in a timely manner or move over to keep the flow of traffic moving. If you see that there is no one in front of you and line of cars behind, you're doing something wrong. Now if you are passing someone in a timely manner, I will see that you are being part of the solution and simply wait my turn to pass and move over.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Oh, yeah:

3 - STOP f*ckING TAILGATING. Honestly. There is never a need to tailgate. Want to go faster than me, but don't think I notice you? Tap the horn. Flash your lights. Don't drive up my tailpipe. It's dangerous, makes other drivers nervous, and doesn't accomplish what you want.

You say this and for you those things might work, but honestly I've found that in 9 out of 10 times, tailgating is the only way to get the message across.

I think part of the problem is the general consensus that the left lane (in the States) is the "fast lane". Since everyone thinks that they are a good driver, they assume that they go fast enough for the "fast lane". It isn't the "fast lane", it's the "passing lane" and if you aren't passing you should be moving over.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Oh, yeah:

3 - STOP f*ckING TAILGATING. Honestly. There is never a need to tailgate. Want to go faster than me, but don't think I notice you? Tap the horn. Flash your lights. Don't drive up my tailpipe. It's dangerous, makes other drivers nervous, and doesn't accomplish what you want.

This is where it goes into P&C territory because this makes me REALLY angry. At a certain point that's naked aggression and violence, IMO. If you're willing to *literally* endanger someone else's life because you're late / impatient...? Give your license back. You can't be trusted.

I keep wanting to invent or just create a voice-controlled rear-window sign so I can tell people to back up, f-off, "I'm calling 911" or anything that seems relevant in a situation like that.

DSGamer wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Oh, yeah:

3 - STOP f*ckING TAILGATING. Honestly. There is never a need to tailgate. Want to go faster than me, but don't think I notice you? Tap the horn. Flash your lights. Don't drive up my tailpipe. It's dangerous, makes other drivers nervous, and doesn't accomplish what you want.

This is where it goes into P&C territory because this makes me REALLY angry. At a certain point that's naked aggression and violence, IMO. If you're willing to *literally* endanger someone else's life because you're late / impatient...? Give your license back. You can't be trusted.

I keep wanting to invent or just create a voice-controlled rear-window sign so I can tell people to back up, f-off, "I'm calling 911" or anything that seems relevant in a situation like that.

Or you know, you could keep an eye on the traffic around and behind you, move over when you aren't passing, and not cause unnecessary delays.

Nevin73 wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Oh, yeah:

3 - STOP f*ckING TAILGATING. Honestly. There is never a need to tailgate. Want to go faster than me, but don't think I notice you? Tap the horn. Flash your lights. Don't drive up my tailpipe. It's dangerous, makes other drivers nervous, and doesn't accomplish what you want.

This is where it goes into P&C territory because this makes me REALLY angry. At a certain point that's naked aggression and violence, IMO. If you're willing to *literally* endanger someone else's life because you're late / impatient...? Give your license back. You can't be trusted.

I keep wanting to invent or just create a voice-controlled rear-window sign so I can tell people to back up, f-off, "I'm calling 911" or anything that seems relevant in a situation like that.

Or you know, you could keep an eye on the traffic around and behind you, move over when you aren't passing, and not cause unnecessary delays.

Sorry, dude, I can't be with you on that one. I'm all for being aware of traffic and not being a slowly moving cone and not being in the passing lane if you aren't really passing, but "tailgating is the only way to get the message across" is a gigantic pile of crap. I guarantee the person you're tailgating isn't confused about what you want.

"Oh, the guy who's playing highway-speed tag with me wants to get by me! Whew; now I understand!" said nobody ever.

The alternative to tailgating is fuming behind the wheel and cursing the car in front of you (possibly while honking and flashing, if you really feel the need), while still staying a safe distance back.

Less than 2 seconds between you and the car in front of you is physically dangerous. Your "message" becomes "I'm dangerous, I don't care about your safety, I just want to get where I'm going 45 seconds sooner."

I'm also going to have to call bullsh*t on "Tailgating is the only thing that works" because...well, uh, I've deliberately not moved for the sake of tailgaters.

Nevin73 wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Oh, yeah:

3 - STOP f*ckING TAILGATING. Honestly. There is never a need to tailgate. Want to go faster than me, but don't think I notice you? Tap the horn. Flash your lights. Don't drive up my tailpipe. It's dangerous, makes other drivers nervous, and doesn't accomplish what you want.

This is where it goes into P&C territory because this makes me REALLY angry. At a certain point that's naked aggression and violence, IMO. If you're willing to *literally* endanger someone else's life because you're late / impatient...? Give your license back. You can't be trusted.

I keep wanting to invent or just create a voice-controlled rear-window sign so I can tell people to back up, f-off, "I'm calling 911" or anything that seems relevant in a situation like that.

Or you know, you could keep an eye on the traffic around and behind you, move over when you aren't passing, and not cause unnecessary delays.

I wasn't talking about me driving 50 in the left lane. I generally stay out of the fast lane, or go there just to pass and do so quickly. So unless you've been personally tailgating me you don't know what you're talking about or painting with a wide brush. People tailgate you (general you) in the right lane. They do this on city streets. They do this if you're 10 miles above the speed limit. They do it if you're driving the speed limit. It doesn't matter.

But hey, threatening violence is absolutely appropriate if someone is slowing you down and causing you to lose 2 minutes of your life. Logic.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'm also going to have to call bullsh*t on "Tailgating is the only thing that works" because...well, uh, I've deliberately not moved for the sake of tailgaters.

I have slowed down to the speed limit, taken a full 3 seconds at stop signs or taken a long time to switch lanes if someone has tailgated me.

mudbunny wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'm also going to have to call bullsh*t on "Tailgating is the only thing that works" because...well, uh, I've deliberately not moved for the sake of tailgaters.

I have slowed down to the speed limit, taken a full 3 seconds at stop signs or taken a long time to switch lanes if someone has tailgated me.

Same. The most "aggressive" thing I've done on the road was due to someone tailgating and switching lanes rapidly and dangerously. I've done this a couple of times, but if I think that person is going to pass on the right I'll keep even with the car in the "fast lane", assuming they're moving slow. Then they can sit their frustrated and unable to illegally pass on the right or pass on the left.

Yes, I paint with a broad brush. Almost all of my driving is highway driving so I can't really attest to city driving. But I also kind of go by the idea of the lowest common denominator. If you're always getting tailgated then is it that all of the other drivers around are assholes or are you doing something that is pissing other people off? Yes, people are, as a rule, inconsiderate and selfish. But I see that manifest on the highways more as "I'm going fast enough, deal with it" than as "get out of my way".

I usually do about 75-80 on a 65mph highway. I pass sitting police cruisers at that speed with no problems so I'm not burning up the road way. But just as the last several guys posted about getting "revenge" on agressive drivers who tailgate by slowing down and trapping them, I've seen the exact same responses to flashing highbeams and honking when I try to encourage someone to let traffic flow. People do not like to be reminded that there might be others who drive faster. And it is a circular argument. Slower drivers piss off faster drivers who want to get by them. Faster drivers do something to let their irritation show. Slower drivers get pissed off and slow down further. Isn't it much easier to just get out of the way and let everyone get on with their commute?

And yes, I'll pass on the right if that lane is open. Sometimes it is the only way to get through a knot of traffic (that is unnecessary). It is actually legal in a number of states (to my knowledge).

A friend was explaining the German system where it is illegal to just drive in the left lane. If you don't pass and move over within a certain distance it is a ticketable offense. I don't know if that is still the case (he was stationed there in the 90s) but that sure sounds like a good idea.

?

IMAGE(http://38.media.tumblr.com/e072c5c47846da8aac990671e0c65429/tumblr_mvgdmhrMYT1s99dcoo1_400.gif)

Actual response...

It sounds like a rule of the road should be to not drive? Because apparently if you're not going 80mph (which is illegal) you stand the chance of being tailgated at, say, 77mph. It's not about getting "revenge". In a civilized society you sometimes have to stand up to bullies and say, "That's not acceptable". Slowing down so an angry, violent driver has to slow down isn't "revenge".

But apparently the most defensive thing to do in that situation would be to take surface streets and leave the highways to the people who are taking them.

IMAGE(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m59s4jHEIb1qhq351o1_1280.gif)

Nevin73 wrote:

Yes, I paint with a broad brush. Almost all of my driving is highway driving so I can't really attest to city driving. But I also kind of go by the idea of the lowest common denominator. If you're always getting tailgated then is it that all of the other drivers around are assholes or are you doing something that is pissing other people off? Yes, people are, as a rule, inconsiderate and selfish. But I see that manifest on the highways more as "I'm going fast enough, deal with it" than as "get out of my way".

Nevin73 wrote:

I will admit that I am an aggressive driver who believes that everything would work much better on the roads if everyone just did their best to get out of the way of everyone else.

Well, if you're an agressive driver, why wouldn't you expect to see that inconsiderateness and selfishness manifest itself more as people going too slow for you as opposed to people going too fast for you?

I mean, turn that around: if you always have to tailgate people, then is it that all of the other drivers around you are assholes or are you doing something that is pissing other people off?

It absolutely is "revenge" or "justice" or whatever you want to call it. Your (and other posters) words leave no doubt that you enjoy watching the frustrations mount. Leave policing to the police and let traffic flow.

Of course there may be different attitudes in different parts of the country but in the mid-atlantic states, if you're doing 65mph in a 65 zone in the left hand lane, you are going to be inhibiting traffic and pissing people off. The speed of highway traffic is generally around 75mph, regardless of the posted speed limits (construction zones not withstanding). To believe that people actually stay within the speed limit is naive. As I said, I pass parked police, with radar (or lasers) nearly everday going 75mph and I don't get a second glance.

cheeze_pavilion wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:

Yes, I paint with a broad brush. Almost all of my driving is highway driving so I can't really attest to city driving. But I also kind of go by the idea of the lowest common denominator. If you're always getting tailgated then is it that all of the other drivers around are assholes or are you doing something that is pissing other people off? Yes, people are, as a rule, inconsiderate and selfish. But I see that manifest on the highways more as "I'm going fast enough, deal with it" than as "get out of my way".

Nevin73 wrote:

I will admit that I am an aggressive driver who believes that everything would work much better on the roads if everyone just did their best to get out of the way of everyone else.

Well, if you're an agressive driver, why wouldn't you expect to see that inconsiderateness and selfishness manifest itself more as people going too slow for you as opposed to people going too fast for you?

I mean, turn that around: if you always have to tailgate people, then is it that all of the other drivers around you are assholes or are you doing something that is pissing other people off?

A fair statement. I am an aggressive driver and have no problems with it. The way I look at it is I try to stay out of every else's way and expect that everyone else should do the same.

DSGamer wrote:
mudbunny wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'm also going to have to call bullsh*t on "Tailgating is the only thing that works" because...well, uh, I've deliberately not moved for the sake of tailgaters.

I have slowed down to the speed limit, taken a full 3 seconds at stop signs or taken a long time to switch lanes if someone has tailgated me.

Same. The most "aggressive" thing I've done on the road was due to someone tailgating and switching lanes rapidly and dangerously. I've done this a couple of times, but if I think that person is going to pass on the right I'll keep even with the car in the "fast lane", assuming they're moving slow. Then they can sit their frustrated and unable to illegally pass on the right or pass on the left.

I'm pretty sure retribution would fall under the category of unsafe driving. Just sayin'.

If someone is driving overly safe, in a manner that is unsafe, I should avoid putting pressure on them, because they might be 90 or 16. They might need more space and time to move over safely. If someone is driving aggressively and too fast, I get out of the way and let them by because the longer they drive in my area, the longer they have a chance to f*ck things up in my world.

The reason everyone assumed that this thread was troll bait was because of these kinds of reactions. People like to claim they care about safe driving. What they really want to do is punish anyone that they feel doesn't meet their standard. At that point, they just increased the danger on the road for everyone else.

I think that's fair, Jayhawker. And honestly 99% of the time I do exactly what you say. On the highway I've literally been going 80 myself with someone tailgating me. In that situation I punched it to 100 (true story) to pass the car I was passing and get out of the way of that lunatic.

So I guess you can add that to the rules. If a crazy person is tailgating you try to stay away from them. That's common sense and 99% of the time I do practice that. On a city street or state highway when someone is being absurdly aggressive, though, I'm not going to lie and say I still don't believe there's merit to trying to stop someone from driving aggressively.

DSGamer wrote:

I think that's fair, Jayhawker. And honestly 99% of the time I do exactly what you say. On the highway I've literally been going 80 myself with someone tailgating me. In that situation I punched it to 100 (true story) to pass the car I was passing and get out of the way of that lunatic.

So I guess you can add that to the rules. If a crazy person is tailgating you try to stay away from them. That's common sense and 99% of the time I do practice that. On a city street or state highway when someone is being absurdly aggressive, though, I'm not going to lie and say I still don't believe there's merit to trying to stop someone from driving aggressively.

No one's perfect, and emotions get the best of us all. I just don't think we should endorse punishing drivers on the road. It's pretty much the first step to road rage. And yeah, I do the same thing, speeding up to get around and let a guy go through.

I was once complaining to my wife that people on the road were driving stupid and and seemed to be oblivious to the world around them. Then I said, "And I'm sure the fact that I'm running late has no effect on my perception of how they are driving." I try to remind myself that when driving, we can find all kinds of terrible drivers, even when they aren't driving poorly, if we try.

It's always best to actively consider that everyone has a good reason for doing what they are doing (yeah, there are exceptions) and to try and accommodate. When you do that, you just made the road safer for you and everyone (yes, even the bad drivers) around you.

If breaking the speed limit is part of your plan to get where you're going on time, then you have a terrible plan.