First: great post, Hyp. I'm gonna nit pick here, but please don't let that insinuate I disagree with your line of thought. I think the male = penis = agressor idea is crucial to understanding a lot of stuff.
The transphobic (and homophobic as well) disgusted reaction to the presence of a penis is the reaction to the idea that a guy might be in a relationship where he was not the aggressor, and therefore where he was not acting as a man. The fear that trans women are going to run around raping people in female gendered spaces (restrooms, etc.) is related to the idea that the trans woman is automatically an aggressor because she has (or had at some point) a penis. And I think that attitude towards penises is related to the "cotton ceiling" transphobia as well—that because of the presence of a penis, there's automatically this power disparity between the parties
I don't disagree with any of this, but it seems to only paint a partial picture. There are people who are disgusted by the penis for a whole multitude of reasons; not all of them are transphobic or homophobic. A straight man dealing with memories of molestation may develop hatred for the penis that in no way stem from transphobic nor homophobic thoughts, but rather an expression of repressed fear and humiliation. I suspect there are countless examples where this specific appendage represents a whole lot of terrible memories for people (especially groups traditionally oppressed in a patriarchy), and I hesitate to reduce all of that down to trans/homophobia.
Take, for example, the post from Natalie Reed above. That comparison seems awfully...weak. I mean sure, the biological/physical argument against penis = male is fine. Reed doesn't point out that the level of incidence where this happens is incredibly rare overall, but I won't fault her that for the same reason I don't fault people for not pointing out the the actual incidence of homosexuality among humans is incredibly rare. My problem is that it's ignoring the cultural baggage dumped at the doorstep of every person considering a sexual partner with someone who -- surprise -- is carrying what can sometimes be described as an instrument of terror. I mean this quite literally -- the penis is a symbol of one of the most terrifying weapons of war and it's unfair, IMO, to chalk this type of disgust with such an appendage up to transphobia.
Luckily, Reed agrees with me:
Personally, I would NEVER want to sleep with someone who's disgusted, or uninterested, in my body to that degree...
(snip!)I mean, I guess there probably ARE some really awful, entitled, selfish trans women who have chalked every single rejection they've ever had up to "transphobia" when there were quite understandable reasons they got turned down.
(there's lots more good stuff in this article. Everyone go read it.
But the point I think Reed is missing is that she's looking at this backward. It's not male = penis. It's penis = bad, in that the penis is the symbol for everything culturally suffocating about this reality. Is that fair to women with penises? Hell no it's not, and I completely agree with Reed that this is a tiny facet of marginalization, because as we've all agreed with before, it's not cool to expect sex.
Anyway I'm not sure why I'm defending with such veracity the right for people to hate penises. No idea why it's struck me as important. Reed's article was excellent, overall, and I appreciate you sharing it.
Wow Hyp, I'm sad that you detect so much stuff that (to me) seems inoffensive as offensive. It probably doesn't help, but I think most of those costumes aren't like a personal attack on you, just making fun of stereotypes, I'm sure if they knew you as a person I'm sure they'd like you (Or respect you at least). Sometimes I wonder if you think too much about this stuff and maybe your mind leads you towards negative perceptions of your trans identity?
I suspect the whole issue is treated "casually" because most people just have never even met a transexual or know anything about how you think (or could even imagine that it was offensive). f*ck, I thought just acknowledging that you existed (you = the transgender population) was an improvement in the issue, but I guess not.
BTW, what do you think about the whole "Man dressing as woman" comedy thing? It's a classic, since Monty Python and probably earlier, no? Why is it funny?
Also, as a straight dude or cis or whatever (this may be too simple for you) I thought the "Projectile vomit when encountering a girl with a penis" was because their genitals are usually very umm weird looking? From hormone treatments and all that? Just all my huhhh research on the net about trans dudes, their penis never looks "right" + the shock + being a disposable scene in a crappy comedy = vomit. It's kind of a cheap laugh, that's all, no? Like the mexican guys smoking marihuana or being mariachis. I wonder if it's about that, or if that's a too simple way to look at it and it really is that "penis anger" thing.
I'm curious, what do you think about Pavel Petel? (NSFW sample image: http://i.imgur.com/7cN479A.jpg )
The whole penis-is-bad thing is straight up institutionalized homophobia. Guys aren't allowed to touch another penis, period. If you do, you must immediately react with sufficient horror and outrage so that nobody thinks you enjoyed or appreciated or even felt totally neutral about said touching. Anything less than that, and folk might think you're gay (which is totally fine), which is obviously horrific.
Ergo, a surprise penis demands a shocked/disdainful/horrified/disgusted response, all the moreso because your hand was going there on purpose.
All guys' penises look weird, honestly.
My penis is beautiful
Ok, cool, I'm going to try and digest all that, thanks : ) I'm still torn between the comedy and not offending anyone. It's like, yeah, I'll take the mariachi stereotypes if it means we can make fun of other things (not necessarily to be mean), but I'd have to think about it more, so I'll stop for now. You're a smart person, for sure. Everyone struggles with their own fights, but hopefully you can overcome the hate you experienced all your life : )
The whole penis-is-bad thing is straight up institutionalized homophobia. Guys aren't allowed to touch another penis, period. If you do, you must immediately react with sufficient horror and outrage so that nobody thinks you enjoyed or appreciated or even felt totally neutral about said touching. Anything less than that, and folk might think you're gay (which is totally fine), which is obviously horrific.
Ergo, a surprise penis demands a shocked/disdainful/horrified/disgusted response, all the moreso because your hand was going there on purpose.
So, the legion of women - lesbian or not - who view the penis as a symbol for everything that has tormented them are...homophobes?
Or the men - gay or not - with similar horrific experiences are...homophobes?
Hyp - I'm gonna respond to this in the rape culture thread. I feel like I've moved slightly out of the scope of this particular thread.
Chumpy_McChump wrote:The whole penis-is-bad thing is straight up institutionalized homophobia. Guys aren't allowed to touch another penis, period. If you do, you must immediately react with sufficient horror and outrage so that nobody thinks you enjoyed or appreciated or even felt totally neutral about said touching. Anything less than that, and folk might think you're gay (which is totally fine), which is obviously horrific.
Ergo, a surprise penis demands a shocked/disdainful/horrified/disgusted response, all the moreso because your hand was going there on purpose.
So, the legion of women - lesbian or not - who view the penis as a symbol for everything that has tormented them are...homophobes?
Or the men - gay or not - with similar horrific experiences are...homophobes?
Really? That's what you took from my post? I was responding to
This dominant cultural imagining of transgender women is based on disgust at the discovery that an attractive woman has a penis—whether that disgust is expressed in terms of vomiting, or in terms of the shame that allow for blackmail, or a different expression.
As Hyp also said, "But most people who react reflexively aren't doing it because of trauma from a personal experience. Rather, most people react because of the culture in which we're steeped." Trauma victims aren't dictating cultural norms.
Yes, it's true that if someone learns this sort of thing unexpectedly, one might expect them to be startled. I'd argue that disgust is pretty clearly rooted in transphobia, and that there's no need to accept that.
I'd argue that it's less transphobia and more homophobia; I don't think I've ever seen "guy with surprise vagina" as a comedy prop.
I just think fear and hatred of that appendage is bigger than homophobia. I think it's tied to rape culture (I have a longer post over there).
But you're not wrong. These things are so interconnected it's tough to even pick a thread to discuss them!
Wow Hyp, I'm sad that you detect so much stuff that (to me) seems inoffensive as offensive. It probably doesn't help, but I think most of those costumes aren't like a personal attack on you, just making fun of stereotypes, I'm sure if they knew you as a person I'm sure they'd like you (Or respect you at least). Sometimes I wonder if you think too much about this stuff and maybe your mind leads you towards negative perceptions of your trans identity?
Just so you know, Mex - I am with you here. Can't anything just be a joke without deeper context? I am not saying we shouldn't be sensitive - we should absolutely be sensitive, but shouldn't people get to make a joke?
You kinda lost me after the quoted part, however:)
When certain groups of people (or individuals, for that matter) are the butt of jokes way more than everyone else, it probably stops being funny to them, you know?
When certain groups of people (or individuals, for that matter) are the butt of jokes way more than everyone else, it probably stops being funny to them, you know?
I do get that, but maybe every joke that could be superficially related to them isn't against them? I am not arguing that there aren't deeper issues that need addressed - but maybe every joke in every thread isn't indicative of a deeper problem?
SixteenBlue wrote:When certain groups of people (or individuals, for that matter) are the butt of jokes way more than everyone else, it probably stops being funny to them, you know?
I do get that, but maybe every joke that could be superficially related to them isn't against them? I am not arguing that there aren't deeper issues that need addressed - but maybe every joke in every thread isn't indicative of a deeper problem?
They all are, SallyNasty. It's inevitable. Jokes are funny because they tap a deeply, if unconsciously, perceived or held reality. If you have no idea what the joke is really talking about, you won't get it. Ergo, in that every joke featuring a transgender concept taps into popular notions of what that is, every joke is indicative of something deep. This is usually problematic at the moment because of all the baggage Hypatian is good enough to unpack.
I didn't used to understand American humor. I'm better at that, now. It involves assuming a lot of things which you may not like looking in the face.
Well, you went into a funny picture thread and told a poster that they hurt your feelings for posting a funny picture:) Time and place sort of deal, maybe?
Well, you went into a funny picture thread and told a poster that they hurt your feelings for posting a funny picture:) Time and place sort of deal, maybe?
The insinuation that Hypatian should not have voiced how she felt where people would see it because it would make the same people who were laughing at the joke uncomfortable is actually way more offensive to me than the original picture ever was.
Well, you went into a funny picture thread and told a poster that they posted a picture that was hurtful, probably quite unknowingly.
FTFY. There was no rant, no flinging about of accusations, just a mention that it was hurtful and a link to why. That's about as gentle as it gets.
This is why I don't like this conversation. Hyp says she feels a certain way - everyone jumps to her defense. I say I feel a different way, or the comment struck me as slightly off - obviously i am an offensive anti-trans asshole. Enjoy your day, folks.
This is why I don't like this conversation. Hyp says she feels a certain way - everyone jumps to her defense. I say I feel a different way, or the comment struck me as slightly off - obviously i am an offensive anti-trans asshole. Enjoy your day, folks.
Literally nobody has claimed that. These people disagree with you and have expressed their reasons why. If you want to bow out based on that, you are of course free do to so, but please don't paint this as some sort of Internet Defense Squad out to smear anyone who disagrees with Hypatian, it's disingenuous.
I can see where Sally's opinion was called offensive. Not by you, Hyp, but i do think Sally has the right to feel a little dogpiled here.
On topic, I thought the entire nuance regarding the picture was very educational, and I appreciated the dialogue.
Yeah, I never claimed you were an asshole Sally, and I'm sorry if I came off that way. I was just trying to say that no matter how light hearted, "in the name of fun" the advice was it was still advice saying that someone who was offended should find another time and place to say so. I think we can all learn and have more fun in the future if people who are hurt by comments like this speak up and let us all know.
I can see where Sally's opinion was called offensive. Not by you, Hyp, but i do think Sally has the right to feel a little dogpiled here.
I disagree. Sally claimed that they were being labeled transphobic when this was very much not the case, and there is a rather wide gulf between what was actually posted and that.
Social, I claimed Sally's statement was more offensive than what happened in the picture thread. As the person who said it, I will own up to Sally probably feeling hurt by it. I didn't mean to imply any judgement on Sally for saying so but I did want to point out that self-censorship in the name of others' fun probably isn't the answer here.
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