Fellow Child-free folk - Let's Chat: Do you feel it is risky being "out" these days?

Robear wrote:

Clover, that's not just a reasonable stance, but a socially and evolutionarily useful one. It's *laudable*. Not everyone has to follow one path.

I have sh*t genes too, so from a global evolutionary perspective I'm doing the responsible thing anyway. See my as-yet-unwritten rant about repro technology that I'll eventually post in the political confessions thread

KingGorilla wrote:

And they have 2-4 kids. That is probably at most 4-8 lays in the marriage.

Is that what you'd call a double-tap?

LobsterMobster wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

And they have 2-4 kids. That is probably at most 4-8 lays in the marriage.

Is that what you'd call a double-tap? :D

This is also why so many of them adopt a wide stance.

Tanglebones wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

And they have 2-4 kids. That is probably at most 4-8 lays in the marriage.

Is that what you'd call a double-tap? :D

This is also why so many of them adopt a wide stance.

Reminds me of the Miracle of Birth Part II - The Third World in Monty Python's the meaning of life. Wish I had youtube access at work to find that clip of the protestant across the street making a joke of how catholics can only have sex for the sake of conception.

Dr.Ghastly wrote:

IMAGE(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/family_decals.png)

Still one of my favourite XKCDs. They actually do make stickers like the moneybag ones, as well as others that make fun of that whole narcissistic "family stickers" movement as a whole. I've been tempted to get some of them more than a few times but there's a lot of young parents in my office, many of whom have those stickers and because of where I park, everyone would see them. The drama ain't worth it.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:

IMAGE(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/family_decals.png)

Still one of my favourite XKCDs. They actually do make stickers like the moneybag ones, as well as others that make fun of that whole narcissistic "family stickers" movement as a whole. I've been tempted to get some of them more than a few times but there's a lot of young parents in my office, many of whom have those stickers and because of where I park, everyone would see them. The drama ain't worth it. :(

My wife wants a set of us and the puppies, I'm waiting for a zombie version.

Yellek has a zombie one

<--- Check the tag and avatar for some context.

I am the only male blood-relative that carries my family name. It would have been my responsibility to carry on the family line. I will not have biological children. I likely will not have children ever, unless I suffer some kind of brain trauma that changes my feelings. Even before I came out, I told my parents that I did not like or want children. I always got the answer, "But it's different when they're yours."

Perhaps, but I don’t WANT my own. After coming out, my mother realized that it would be extremely unlikely that I would have children, and then only via surrogate mother, or adoption, neither very likely. In some vain attempt to foolishly offer comfort, I did mention, during those first conversations post-outing that adoption was not off the table. She then proceeded to tell me that it "wouldn't be the same." Thanks, mom. Not only do you want me to give up on happiness, and be a second class citizen, but you would relegate my adopted child to second-class grandchild.

I have not told her this, and I see no reason to, but recently, I was diagnosed with a condition which is almost always accompanied by an extremely low sperm count. Without medical intervention, it is likely not possible that I could have children.

So, overall, you could say that I'm not meant to have children, if you believe in such things. Doesn't really matter, because I didn't want them in the first place.

Robear wrote:

This is a thing?

Sure, people associate more with other friends who have kids when they have kids, but that's only natural and convenient. Free time changes radically for over a decade. But beyond that, anyone who cares is sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong. I don't even think about it anymore when I meet people. It just does not matter.

Yes. It's a thing. Look at the thread that spawned this and the raw anger over the opinions of the childfree. In real life we face this all of the time. Not just for our opinions on the world of parenting, but for our own personal choices. It's all fair game.

My wife and I have many friends with kids. If those friends are reasonable that arrangement can actually work out. They may be busier and less available, but I've found that if the parent puts the kids down to bed early it can be pretty cool. Go over, play with the kids for an hour, then they go off to bed and you play board games or whatever.

Robear wrote:

I cannot imagine someone saying "Well, why did you get married if you don't want kids?" Does that happen? That's a level of stupid that's awesome to contemplate.

Yes, it happens. All the time.

Robear does not know many Catholics, apparently. My father has extremely low opinions of married couples without children. I would bet my mother does too, but she's not as vocal.

Bonus_Eruptus wrote:
Robear wrote:

I cannot imagine someone saying "Well, why did you get married if you don't want kids?" Does that happen? That's a level of stupid that's awesome to contemplate.

Every time a politician implies that the sole purpose of marriage is procreation.

I had a ten year old boy tell me gay marriage was stupid and wrong yesterday because the point of marriage is to have babies.

His parents are very liberal folks so either he came to the conclusion himself (doubtful) or he picked that up at school by other kids, teachers, etc.

NSMike wrote:

<--- Check the tag and avatar for some context.

I am the only male blood-relative that carries my family name. It would have been my responsibility to carry on the family line. I will not have biological children. I likely will not have children ever, unless I suffer some kind of brain trauma that changes my feelings. Even before I came out, I told my parents that I did not like or want children. I always got the answer, "But it's different when they're yours."

Perhaps, but I don’t WANT my own. After coming out, my mother realized that it would be extremely unlikely that I would have children, and then only via surrogate mother, or adoption, neither very likely. In some vain attempt to foolishly offer comfort, I did mention, during those first conversations post-outing that adoption was not off the table. She then proceeded to tell me that it "wouldn't be the same." Thanks, mom. Not only do you want me to give up on happiness, and be a second class citizen, but you would relegate my adopted child to second-class grandchild.

I have not told her this, and I see no reason to, but recently, I was diagnosed with a condition which is almost always accompanied by an extremely low sperm count. Without medical intervention, it is likely not possible that I could have children.

So, overall, you could say that I'm not meant to have children, if you believe in such things. Doesn't really matter, because I didn't want them in the first place.

Interesting she's so concerned about her husband's bloodline. Her genes don't count. Technically, neither do your paternal grandmother's, nor any from the female halves going back forever.

Which king are you the direct male descendant of? How many generations back? Let's say 8. 255/256ths of your genetic code is irrelevant because it's not from a male ancestor. On top of that, we share what, 95% of our DNA with apes? The other 5% is unique to humans, not counting other living creatures. That means only 1/5120th of your genetic code is worth passing on, and that's only going back 8 generations. The rest is tainted by icky girls' DNA.

It all depended on you, Mike! I am disappoint, King Ralph.

TL; DR: If someone you love thinks male bloodlines are important, tell them it's pudding cup and coloring day.

Actually, my father was the only one so concerned about the family name. And like I said, I'm the only blood relative with the name. My uncle was from a previous broken marriage with my grandmother, and was adopted into the family by my paternal grandfather, so despite my uncle having the same name, that doesn't matter. My father has actually said of his half-brother and his family, "they're not real (surname)s."

My mother's objections were likely less about the family line and more about the fact that an adopted child wouldn't be my biological child.

It's clearly not worthwhile to love and raise a child unless it's carrying a specific genetic payload.

Let my contribution be this: I think a lot of people assume child-free means anti-child, while in many cases, it's the opposite. I think a lot of people who are child-free are so because they don't think they could live up to the expectations they have for themselves as parents.

I also think this is something parents don't take into consideration when dismissing the child-free when they offer their opinions on parenting. I think they assume all criticism is "I could do better" when it's not that at all.

NSMike wrote:

My mother's objections were likely less about the family line and more about the fact that an adopted child wouldn't be my biological child.

This argument is one of the few things in life that honestly makes me physically nauseated.

clover wrote:
NSMike wrote:

My mother's objections were likely less about the family line and more about the fact that an adopted child wouldn't be my biological child.

This argument is one of the few things in life that honestly makes me physically nauseated.

Mind you, it's probably more complicated than that, she probably also wouldn't want a grandchild raised by gay parents.

NSMike wrote:
clover wrote:
NSMike wrote:

My mother's objections were likely less about the family line and more about the fact that an adopted child wouldn't be my biological child.

This argument is one of the few things in life that honestly makes me physically nauseated.

Mind you, it's probably more complicated than that, she probably also wouldn't want a grandchild raised by gay parents.

But two gay men having a child would have the purest of bloodlines with no womanly taint! No original sin! You're doing God's work!

DSGamer wrote:

Yes. It's a thing. Look at the thread that spawned this and the raw anger over the opinions of the childfree.

Which thread spawned this discussion? As a parent who struggled over the decision about whether or not to start a family, I'd be interested in reading up on some other thoughts.

As a parent, I can say that my relationships with my friends that have kids and my relationships with those that do not are very different. Typically, this comes down to logistics and not one of judgement or familiarity. My friends with kids are more likely to want to have dinner at 5 PM and my friends without kids are more likely to want to catch a happy hour drink right around then. I try to make room in my life for both but as others have pointed it, it's not as easy as it used to be.

CheezePavilion wrote:

Let my contribution be this: I think a lot of people assume child-free means anti-child, while in many cases, it's the opposite. I think a lot of people who are child-free are so because they don't think they could live up to the expectations they have for themselves as parents.

I also think this is something parents don't take into consideration when dismissing the child-free when they offer their opinions on parenting. I think they assume all criticism is "I could do better" when it's not that at all.

Yep. One of the great joys in my life is in being an uncle. I love visiting my nephews and watching them grow up. I literally melt when they call me uncle and talk about me to their parents after a visit. I would literally take a bullet for them. I just never considered myself cut out for doing it myself. I would post one of the hundreds of photos I have of my nephews giving me a hug or playing with them at the chilidren's museum or whatever, but I'm sensitive to the whole "kids pictures on the Internet" thing that parents worry about. Somehow I picked that knowledge up.

clover wrote:
NSMike wrote:

My mother's objections were likely less about the family line and more about the fact that an adopted child wouldn't be my biological child.

This argument is one of the few things in life that honestly makes me physically nauseated.

Ungh likewise, I encounter that sort of thinking fairly often myself. Lurking breeders; the following is a personal statement, I am not proclaiming it as a moral rule or guideline for anyone else but simply stating my personal stance.

Spoiler:

If I ever do change my mind on parenting I will absolutely be fostering or adopting rather than procreating. I can't imagine knowing what I do, looking at all the children in need of a loving home and basically saying "You're not good enough for me, I want my own"

krev82 wrote:
clover wrote:
NSMike wrote:

My mother's objections were likely less about the family line and more about the fact that an adopted child wouldn't be my biological child.

This argument is one of the few things in life that honestly makes me physically nauseated.

Ungh likewise, I encounter that sort of thinking fairly often myself. Lurking breeders; the following is a personal statement, I am not proclaiming it as a moral rule or guideline for anyone else but simply stating my personal stance.

Spoiler:

If I ever do change my mind on parenting I will absolutely be fostering or adopting rather than procreating. I can't imagine knowing what I do, looking at all the children in need of a loving home and basically saying "You're not good enough for me, I want my own"

Yeah. When my wife and I made our choice "permanent" our escape clause was basically that should things change that was always an option and, in our mind, a better option.

What I have been coming to resent are the couples that decide to have an army instead of a kid or two. I see them not be able to handle the oldest and it makes me think,"what made you decide to have three more with another on the way?"

They want to bring their little minions to the mall as they talk to their friend the whole time. I'm sorry but if you have 3-4 kids, you do not have time to talk to your friend. Watch your kids!

fangblackbone wrote:

What I have been coming to resent are the couples that decide to have an army instead of a kid or two. I see them not be able to handle the oldest and it makes me think,"what made you decide to have three more with another on the way?"

They want to bring their little minions to the mall as they talk to their friend the whole time. I'm sorry but if you have 3-4 kids, you do not have time to talk to your friend. Watch your kids!

The Quiverfull movement is gross in general. Thankfully, a lot of the older daughters forced to essentially raise their own siblings decide not to have kids of their own.

clover wrote:

There's also the assumption that if you're married and don't have kids, that you're "barren" and are to be pitied. Hence childfree rather than childless.

The condition of my uterus isn't so much your business anyway, remote acquaintance. But thanks for your concern.

This, a million times over into infinity. Stop asking about my gonads and what you think they should be doing. They're mine, eff off.

Never had the ticking clock or the desire to do much more than the occasional baby cuddle when they're docile. Genetic predisposition towards twins AND death by bleeding out from pregnancy (called HELLP), so no real desire to get pregnant and have kids. Husband's side of the family has a high risk of depression and mental illness, as well as testicular cancer, too. Oh, also 50% chance of dying from cancer before/by the age of 50 on my side of the family, as well.

We should have been weeded out of the gene pool a long time ago, but modern medicine keeps us here. So we're probably just going to DINK it up until the end.

DSGamer wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

Let my contribution be this: I think a lot of people assume child-free means anti-child, while in many cases, it's the opposite. I think a lot of people who are child-free are so because they don't think they could live up to the expectations they have for themselves as parents.

I also think this is something parents don't take into consideration when dismissing the child-free when they offer their opinions on parenting. I think they assume all criticism is "I could do better" when it's not that at all.

Yep. One of the great joys in my life is in being an uncle. I love visiting my nephews and watching them grow up. I literally melt when they call me uncle and talk about me to their parents after a visit. I would literally take a bullet for them. I just never considered myself cut out for doing it myself. I would post one of the hundreds of photos I have of my nephews giving me a hug or playing with them at the chilidren's museum or whatever, but I'm sensitive to the whole "kids pictures on the Internet" thing that parents worry about. Somehow I picked that knowledge up.

Yeah, along those lines, the ironic thing is I'm probably *more* tolerant of a lot of the 'inconveniences' children create and decisions parents make than a lot of actual parents.

All of you deliberately childless people are monsters for doing your part to exterminate the human race through attrition. I hope you feel shame. I have two kids, and will not have any more, so I did my part, slackers.

Seriously, if someone is giving you a hard time about not having kids, you can ignore the "don't be rude" reflex and tell them to bug off. I can understand feeling bad for a couple who is not physically capable of having their own biological children, and seeing that sympathy incorrectly applied to a childless married woman. They are just assuming that there is, in fact, something wrong with you and they feel bad about it, it's just still not really their business.

I totally understand not wanting to have kids, too. I get a little sad inside when I see people who would (in my expert opinion) be great parents say they don't want kids, but aside from offering my opinion as a compliment, I have nothing to say on the matter. It sucks that offering that opinion can be considered invasive, judging or rude, so I try to not even bother. I can understand why pointing out that I think some people would be terrible parents is a judgmental and rude, but it is still not really any of my business.

As a parent, though: please don't be a dick to my kids. If they are crying in the restaurant, I will remove them if they can't be calmed down. If they are being unruly and I don't know, inform me. They can't vote, but they are still people. They are ignorant, but not necessarily stupid. Support your town school budgets, these kids will be running things one day, and it benefits you to have them be well-educated. And don't ask them about their reproductive organs - trust me.

As a parent, though: please don't be a dick to my kids.

Yeaaaah... that's not what this thread is about. None of us have sworn any kind of anti-kid thoughts, just that having them is not for us (heck several have said, and I'll throw my hat in on this, that we like kids, think they can be cute, and enjoy them in small doses; aunt, uncle, friend of the parent who can share an interest like Star Wars with the kid to entertain him or her for a few minutes).

This is, however, a rather sad post to make in this thread because there's the assumption that those who don't have kids would be dicks to kids. I vote for my school levies. I give kids the benefit of the doubt in public places up to a point. I knew I was going to have talkative kids going into Wreck-it-Ralph, and while I missed a few lines due to some talking, I know that I'll be buying it on Blu-Ray when it comes out anyway. Kids are the future, and I don't treat them like monsters unless they have proven through their actions to be just that nor do I vote against their interests for something like a slightly smaller property tax rate.

It's not the suggestion that one might make a great parent that's insulting, it's the all-too-frequent parade of people who want to make you feel like something is WRONG with you for not, or that you're being SELFISH for not giving your parents grandchildren, or that we are disposable parts of society because we're not undertaking The Most Important Job in the World™.

Atras wrote:

As a parent, though: please don't be a dick to my kids. If they are crying in the restaurant, I will remove them if they can't be calmed down. If they are being unruly and I don't know, inform me. They can't vote, but they are still people. They are ignorant, but not necessarily stupid. Support your town school budgets, these kids will be running things one day, and it benefits you to have them be well-educated. And don't ask them about their reproductive organs - trust me.

With all due respect, have you actually read through the thread yet, or did you just come in and start typing?