Agree with all the above.
Co-ed sports help a TON here, too.
Man I'd love it if the boy would commit to sports but he's a musician and a gamer. Daughter is a gamer and reader. She's got more physical aptitude but again disinterested in sports.
The only physical activity he's willing to consider with all the testosterone pumping through his growing body is Boxing or BJJ/Muay Thai. Whenever he's standing around at home near me he starts throwing punches at my poor shoulders. I might have been like that at his age? So I can't complaint too much, just need to buy a punching bag and make him channel his aggression there.
I wonder if it's the whole transformation at 16+ where the vertical growth slows/stops and his peers are starting to work out and get bigger, then fall down certain rabbit holes for young men with lower self esteem / self confidence.
Boxing and Muay Thai are tough to start. Most people (me!) just cannot well handle getting struck over and over (often in the face, with padding though, mind you) as you move from learning techniques to using techniques against others using them against you.
So BJJ has been a much more successful endeavor for me. For gamer kids, it can also be sold as literal 3D chess: to achieve checkmate, you start by moving your pawns by protecting yourself from punches and kicks by closing the distance and getting some kind of takedown, then get dominant board/body position…etc. It’s why some of the BJJ world considers itself a geeky sport.
Both my kids—younger than yours by years—are enjoying it. Whether they stick to it into teenhood, we’ll see.
Tae Kwon Do in our area is co-ed and multi-generational, so you're in a physical, social environment with kids all the way up to grandparents. That is a very positive environment for teaching kids about physicality, aggression and, yes, masculinity, completely removed from Tate's toxic insecurity versions of all three of those things.
Tae Kwon Do in our area is co-ed and multi-generational, so you're in a physical, social environment with kids all the way up to grandparents. That is a very positive environment for teaching kids about physicality, aggression and, yes, masculinity, completely removed from Tate's toxic insecurity versions of all three of those things.
Yeah but TKD, especially the common suburban version, is stupidly expensive. We did it for a few years and I liked it more than not, but it's decidedly a business in ways some of the activities are not until you get to the super competitive levels.
That is a great point.
Anything that requires a decent qualified coach, equipment and hella liability insurance is gonna be expensive.
Daughter is in gymnastics and that's expensive too. Same for Crossfit - way more expensive than a big box gym because you're getting coaching as part of the entry fee.
Although we are discussing in a parenting context, it's worth remembering that all martial arts can cause grevious harm or kill. Most were formulated for battlefield combat. Others might give the perception of being non lethal (boxing) but that is only because they are constrained by rules or equipment.
In that sense, as Jonman says, it makes sense a martial artist is paid enough to reward their expertise as proper supervision of the forms they teach.
Traditional disciplines like TKD take forever to advance in gradings, therefore more expensive in the long term, because they emphasise technique and form over utility and more advanced techniques require certain levels of flexibility, agility and strength to pull off.
That's not to say TKD or any other form heavy discipline is not lethal. Heck, the SK special forces in Vietnam (if we can put aside the war crimes momentarily) were extremely effective with their TKD.
I trained for a few years in the late 90s. I can't pull off or even remember half the things I was taught. But I wouldn't trust myself teaching my boy how to fight because I'm a lawyer I fight with words not fists lol
Traumatic brain injuries are a thing worth considering with combat sports too, from a parenting perspective.
If you'd think twice about letting your boy play football for that reason, combat sports should make you think twice too. Not saying don't do it, just consider the risks first and weigh them against the very real benefits (fitness, confidence, discipline, ability to defend oneself).
That's not to say TKD or any other form heavy discipline is not lethal. Heck, the SK special forces in Vietnam (if we can put aside the war crimes momentarily) were extremely effective with their TKD.
This is the exact background of the grandmaster at our school.
Traumatic brain injuries are a thing worth considering with combat sports too, from a parenting perspective.
If you'd think twice about letting your boy play football for that reason, combat sports should make you think twice too. Not saying don't do it, just consider the risks first and weigh them against the very real benefits (fitness, confidence, discipline, ability to defend oneself).
Hmm, my sensei forbade heavy strikes to the head during sparring, and I only did semi-contact tournaments (strike above the belt and below the neck). I think BJJ might have an advantage there as you would expect less concussive events. Well, so long as a takedown doesn't result in someone's head smacking the mats. So yeah, on balance I think martial arts would have higher benefit to risk ratio than say NFL/Rugby contact sports. I do wonder if European football (soccer) has any statistics with all the headers they do?
Although we are discussing in a parenting context, it's worth remembering that all martial arts can cause grevious harm or kill. Most were formulated for battlefield combat. Others might give the perception of being non lethal (boxing) but that is only because they are constrained by rules or equipment.
In that sense, as Jonman says, it makes sense a martial artist is paid enough to reward their expertise as proper supervision of the forms they teach.
Traditional disciplines like TKD take forever to advance in gradings, therefore more expensive in the long term, because they emphasise technique and form over utility and more advanced techniques require certain levels of flexibility, agility and strength to pull off.
That's not to say TKD or any other form heavy discipline is not lethal. Heck, the SK special forces in Vietnam (if we can put aside the war crimes momentarily) were extremely effective with their TKD.
I trained for a few years in the late 90s. I can't pull off or even remember half the things I was taught. But I wouldn't trust myself teaching my boy how to fight because I'm a lawyer I fight with words not fists lol
I forgot you are Australian so my experience can be different, but in the US, suburban martial arts are mostly different than umm... More real martial arts. Part of it is to minimize injuries and keep paying customers. But there's definitely a large amount of sales pressure that makes the whole thing feel off. But that doesn't mean there's no value to it, just buyer beware.
All that said, I'm still a big proponent of wrestling. No striking, lots of body control (yours and the other person), great workout. Yes, injuries can occur (and ringworm sucks) but less concussions than some other sports/arts.
Also, I know youth soccer in the US has banned headers due to concussion risks. I think through high school level at least. And every other sport my kids have been doing required coaches to have concussion training.
Per Wikipedia, rates per 1000 athlete-exposure (95% confidence interval):
Overall, Games, Practice
Baseball 0.09, 0.16, 0.04
Basketball 0.38, 0.53, 0.34
Football 0.75, 3.25, 0.48
Ice hockey 0.74, 2.40, 0.20
Lacrosse 0.30, 0.91, 0.19
Soccer 0.26, 0.67, 0.14
Wrestling 0.89, 4.31, 0.48
I am surprised that competitive cheerleading isn't on that list.
Per Wikipedia, rates per 1000 athlete-exposure (95% confidence interval):
Overall, Games, Practice
Baseball 0.09, 0.16, 0.04
Basketball 0.38, 0.53, 0.34
Football 0.75, 3.25, 0.48
Ice hockey 0.74, 2.40, 0.20
Lacrosse 0.30, 0.91, 0.19
Soccer 0.26, 0.67, 0.14
Wrestling 0.89, 4.31, 0.48
Ok, I am very surprised at the numbers for wrestling. I should see what I can dig out on that for different styles and age levels.
I'm also surprised lacrosse is that low.
I should add that I don't know what modern martial arts entails in Australia personally as I stopped training in the 90s. Back then my sensei was an electrician who towed his floor mats with his HiAce van on a trailer and we trained in Spartan conditions. Like a decrepit community hall built in the 1800s with no aircon 
He ended up opening a few more locations out west together with other black belts he trained which is pretty cool, I think partly on his reputation in the karate world in Australia. At least back when I trained it was about the art, the form and safety; nobody I saw including me ever got concussed. Different story in tournaments though. At 15 I saw what ought to have been a semicontact tournament fight end with a broken spleen/ruptured sternum. Yeah, aside from getting my butt kicked from a much larger stronger and senior fighter, seeing the ferocity some fighters brought to the ring, I gave up training that year lol
For what it's worth, I got lightly concussed once in high school in a rugby game. Huge opposition, took him down in a tackle but he wrestled me in a way where my head hit the ground. Ears were ringing. Not a pleasant experience but it was a one off. YMMV I guess in all things.
I forgot you are Australian so my experience can be different, but in the US, suburban martial arts are mostly different than umm... More real martial arts. Part of it is to minimize injuries and keep paying customers. But there's definitely a large amount of sales pressure that makes the whole thing feel off. But that doesn't mean there's no value to it, just buyer beware.
I mean, insurance was compulsory and everyone was cautioned constantly to focus on execution of technique and pull back/restraining strikes. But yes, injuries in training would have a quelling effect on enrolments and the risk of litigation.
I dropped training partly because I was intimidated by what I saw and experienced in that last tournament at 15 convinced me I'd reached my personal limit without more serious dedication and I needed to focus on academics in senior high school anyway. I don't recall any sales pressure from my sensei to keep training? If anything, he wanted to ensure whoever continued training to get their black belt was dedicated to his philosophy and he wasn't about handing out gradings.
I coach mini rugby and concussion is likely and treated very seriously. My Scottish Rugby Union concussion training is about 50 pages worth.
Top_Shelf wrote:Per Wikipedia, rates per 1000 athlete-exposure (95% confidence interval):
Overall, Games, Practice
Baseball 0.09, 0.16, 0.04
Basketball 0.38, 0.53, 0.34
Football 0.75, 3.25, 0.48
Ice hockey 0.74, 2.40, 0.20
Lacrosse 0.30, 0.91, 0.19
Soccer 0.26, 0.67, 0.14
Wrestling 0.89, 4.31, 0.48Ok, I am very surprised at the numbers for wrestling. I should see what I can dig out on that for different styles and age levels.
I'm also surprised lacrosse is that low.
Re: wrestling. I believe it.
Super-violent, weight-cutting sport where there are probably going to be some real talent disparities in participant acumen, and the actual sport is two people literally trying to ragdoll the other. Like, that's what you're trying to do for the full play period. There aren't really any non-contact moves/time in there.
Pretty sure these were NCAA numbers, not youth sports, which are probably all over the map in terms of methodological challenges (lack of reporting, consistent application of "positive/negative" result, response rates, etc).
I did find something on some Dr dude's concussion consulting website putting "cheerleading" at 0.07/1000. But again, where's that coming from? "Competitive" cheerleading? NCAA? All cheer teams down to middle school? Just high schools with 500+ students? Other?
I did find something on some Dr dude's concussion consulting website putting "cheerleading" at 0.07/1000. But again, where's that coming from? "Competitive" cheerleading? NCAA? All cheer teams down to middle school? Just high schools with 500+ students? Other?
It's a discipline where you throw thin girls as high in the air as you can while they flip around all over the place. Why is it surprising that results in concussions?
The Jui-Jitsu place I trained did very little standing training. All of the sparring was done from a kneeling (on the knees) position. Participants were discouraged from fast violent movements. HS wrestling was much more dangerous.
TKD also has high incidences of torn ligaments. My wife and I both tore our ACL and I broke my ankle and both hands. Never tore or broke anything in middle school or high school football, track, or wrestling.
Some TKD places (mine was one) test way to early and way too often. They make a fair amount of money on tests so they test quickly and produce black belts in 1-2 years. I did shotokan karate for a few years and tested once. Practice and sparring were much more controlled they also didn't allow anyone under 16.
Personally, I'd have my kid to karate well before TKD. I think it's much more regulated. Anyone (literally) can open a TKD dojo. I don't think it's the same with karate. BJJ is also a bit more controlled. Though a lot of it depends on the instructor.
Top_Shelf wrote:I did find something on some Dr dude's concussion consulting website putting "cheerleading" at 0.07/1000. But again, where's that coming from? "Competitive" cheerleading? NCAA? All cheer teams down to middle school? Just high schools with 500+ students? Other?
It's a discipline where you throw thin girls as high in the air as you can while they flip around all over the place. Why is it surprising that results in concussions?
Upthread there was a comment about how cheerleading is probably pretty high. Just throwing that .07/1000 number out there (again, all the caveats) as...not seemingly that high? Compared to other sports? Especially considering, as you note, it's a lot of tumbling/air stuff?
Again, some dude's website with no citations isn't the best. Maybe actual numbers are higher than ice hockey or wrestling. Just a data point.
As the husband to a cheerleading coach, and father to two cheerleaders, I suspect there are issues with the numbers not being accurately reported.
A large number of states don't consider competitive cheerleading an actual sport, so the tracking isn't there as compared to "real" sports like football or baseball.
My daughter (7) does tkd and I do have some feelings about belt mill behavior and let's say the grandmaster does VERY well. However I don't see anything that worries me in terms of safety, they seem extremely conscious about it. So far she's getting a lot of good discipline training out of it which she needs. so for now I plan on keeping a close eye and letting her learn what she can from it.
I don't think rapid progression in grading is a problem unless it exposes students to techniques they can't safely execute (I mean like anything involving jumping/spinning kicks and having both the athleticism to pull it off and the practice to break one's fall if they land awkwardly) or the discipline to restrain their strikes in sparring.
From what I can recall of it, sparring was about speed of technique and drawing back instead of following through. It would be pretty easy to concuss someone in TKD especially with high kicks, let alone something like boxing which principally targets the head, well, not counting body blows.
Yeah, for NCAA wrestling and Olympic, I could definitely see more concussions. At least from my, admittedly limited, high school wrestling time there did not seem to be many concussions. Maybe just a fluke, maybe the style (folk), maybe there was more focus on safety than I realized at the time (there definitely wasn't on my football team).
For cheerleading, I think the reporting accuracy is a good point, but also they had lots of other injuries as well that might occur in place of the concussions.
A training class I was in recently recommended "1-2-3 Magic," a parenting/discipline method for parents. Anyone here read it or used it? Any thoughts? The book was cheap and well-reviewed, and I am about halfway through.
Oh god yes. It’s like magic. Use it sparingly and you will never have to get to three.
I've not read the book but we have used a similar system with my kids and it works great.
Tip: count down from 3--or another number like 10 or 15 depending on what needs to happen soon--rather than up to 3. This instills in the kid--and parents--that counting up to 3 is garbage, but there is no ambiguity counting down to zero. This avoids the "count to three, and then go, or count to three, and go on three?" problem that will only persist so long as people continue to count up to and/or on three. There's a movie clip about that?
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