Maybe this is my Boomer parents talking, but are you worried that will encourage more of the behavior, since they are being "rewarded" with hugs and good attention?
Maybe this is my Boomer parents talking, but are you worried that will encourage more of the behavior, since they are being "rewarded" with hugs and good attention?
It's never just a hug. It's that and then discussion.
Thanks for the advice all. It really is good to know it’s not just us! Taking the eldest out for a walk tomorrow to talk it through wish me luck.
Sending all the internet hugs in the world to y'all!
I've found it's hard to have a rational discussion about moderating behaviour and emotional regulation right at the point they're breaking down. Usually that's best done as a quiet and serious debrief session AFTER they've calmed down, helping them to self-reflect on what upset them, how it made them feel, then talk about tools they can use to work through the raging emotions. Ask them if it's okay to behave that way at school (they'll know it's not). Ask them if there are kids who get angry in class. This is also a great time for hugs, apologies and positive reinforcement. To show them that even though you're also upset you still love them and you want them to be their best self.
Also, try to defuse the situation by breaking up the conflict forcibly, but then privately counselling the child who lost control 1 v 1 or 2 v 1, but not in front of their sibling(s). I mean, nobody wants to get yelled at (yelling rarely fixes anything) particularly in front of other people. It also helps to counsel the other child separately about the same issues of what went wrong, ways to de-escalate, etc.
I can't claim it's a perfect solution but these days all I need to do is tell them it's not acceptable, put on my overly "serious/angry dad glare" then my kids will crack up laughing, they move past whatever set them off, they'll go self reflect and once calm they'll come back to give an apology and lots of hugs.
Also, I can't claim my suggestions work. It might simply be a function of the kids growing older and in greater control over their emotions lol
Sending all the internet hugs in the world to y'all!
I've found it's hard to have a rational discussion about moderating behaviour and emotional regulation right at the point they're breaking down. Usually that's best done as a quiet and serious debrief session AFTER they've calmed down, helping them to self-reflect on what upset them, how it made them feel, then talk about tools they can use to work through the raging emotions. Ask them if it's okay to behave that way at school (they'll know it's not). Ask them if there are kids who get angry in class. This is also a great time for hugs, apologies and positive reinforcement. To show them that even though you're also upset you still love them and you want them to be their best self.
Also, try to defuse the situation by breaking up the conflict forcibly, but then privately counselling the child who lost control 1 v 1 or 2 v 1, but not in front of their sibling(s). I mean, nobody wants to get yelled at (yelling rarely fixes anything) particularly in front of other people. It also helps to counsel the other child separately about the same issues of what went wrong, ways to de-escalate, etc.
I can't claim it's a perfect solution but these days all I need to do is tell them it's not acceptable, put on my overly "serious/angry dad glare" then my kids will crack up laughing, they move past whatever set them off, they'll go self reflect and once calm they'll come back to give an apology and lots of hugs.
Also, I can't claim my suggestions work. It might simply be a function of the kids growing older and in greater control over their emotions lol
All of the above. Also sometimes it works and sometimes it won't. Sometimes, it's get through the current crisis and move on and continue modeling and discussing appropriate behavior.
Yeah, it's never going to be foolproof. But if you keep at it, like anything else, I think the kids will get better at because you've coached them into building and practicing strategies to provide a regulated outlet for their emotions.
The challenge, I think, is that in early childhood to about kindergarten, kids are taught to get along and to give in to keep the peace. This is done assuming everyone teaches their kids equally to respect boundaries and function in a civil society.
However, once they get into school, they see for themselves that other kids can be assholes (as can adults). Then they start to observe assholes getting away with obnoxious behaviour and decide that's what you do to get ahead in life.
At that point you need to shift their mindset to, well, that's a short term strategy which is unsustainable over the long term because you'll get ostracized and fail to build resilient friendships that humans need to thrive.
So yeah, it's like prepping them for the unstable teen years, then the inevitability of joining a workforce (and greater society) where people aren't always at their best.
Yeah, it's never going to be foolproof. But if you keep at it, like anything else, I think the kids will get better at because you've coached them into building and practicing strategies to provide a regulated outlet for their emotions.
The challenge, I think, is that in early childhood to about kindergarten, kids are taught to get along and to give in to keep the peace. This is done assuming everyone teaches their kids equally to respect boundaries and function in a civil society.
However, once they get into school, they see for themselves that other kids can be assholes (as can adults). Then they start to observe assholes getting away with obnoxious behaviour and decide that's what you do to get ahead in life.
At that point you need to shift their mindset to, well, that's a short term strategy which is unsustainable over the long term because you'll get ostracized and fail to build resilient friendships that humans need to thrive.
So yeah, it's like prepping them for the unstable teen years, then the inevitability of joining a workforce (and greater society) where people aren't always at their best.
There's also a lesson to be learned about the wisdom of which things to ignore and which things to put your foot down for. I find most adults struggle with this, let along kids.
Yeah my wife is constantly reminding me to pick my battles. And also how some things have natural consequences.
Like if the kid refuses to put on clothes well who cares in the house? And if we are trying to go somewhere, just step outside and let them feel the cold air and they will figure it out. 
See, I feel there's a huge tension between empowering them to take accountability and responsibility for their actions vs taking action as their guardian to secure their best interests and welfare despite their (childish) wishes.
I might have to intervene in a parenting dispute where a father prepared a sandwich for lunch and the kid refused to take it; the father decided it was fine for one day for the kid to learn his lesson by going hungry for the day. However, at school the teacher called the mother to complain the kid had no lunch. The mother now thinks the kid starves whenever they're with the father. So the valuable life lesson of cause and effect was interrupted by the school acting in what it thought was for the welfare of the child. I hope that couple can sort it out themselves.
In my own home, I sometimes struggle with wanting to put them into Chinese lessons (something I abhorred as a child, which I now regret my parents gave in to my wishes to stop studying when I was 7). Or even getting them extra tutoring to lift their grades, when I know it's rather meaningless in adulthood to rote learn and memorise content, especially as they're going to be the first generation where AI will likely be ubiquitous in the workplace.
Ultimately I think if, as a parent, you're struggling with deciding when to put the foot down, it's a sign you're moving in the right direction. It's the parents who never put their foot down (or conversely always ruling with an iron fist) who are probably failing to support their children in a healthy way.
My son took yet another firm step into adulthood this morning. Aside from helping me pack his lunch, he asked me to teach him to shave.
We started with draping his lanky frame with a towel. He washed and lathered his face with ginger swipes and patting.
Then I was on stage. Praying my hands wouldn't shake and let me down. Internally castigating myself for the faltering swipes of the razor applied too gently for any real effect for fear I'd gouge his soft skin. Yet slowly and surely a clean shaven visage emerged, free from wispy facial hair. Actually, he boasts a more luxurious moustache than I at his tender age of 13.
Triumphantly, we rinsed him off and got him to puff his cheeks and curl his upper lip to tidy off any missed patches, finishing off with a moisturiser to reduce any irritation. A male adolescent butterfly had emerged from its chrysalis. All captured on video for viewing pleasure in my twilight years by my lovely film assistant wife.
Then I boarded the bus and realised this request just so coincides with Valentine's Day in Sydney. Oh well, may his clean shaven self find fortune and love today!
Things are settling down a bit had supportive chats with both and am definitely offering the hug first to try and take the sting out of the anger. We have settled on a system where telly and games are available in 15 minute chunks that can be added to or taken away depending on behaviour. It’s only a week in but seems to be working for now.
As an aside and so as not to create another thread does anyone have a gaming podcast they listen to with their kids? The 8yo is aware I have some and would like to join in but most have swearing and aren’t yet suitable. All suggestions greatly received.
Have you considered just not caring about swearing in front of your kids? 'Cause it's really liberating, and they're better than you'd think about learning, "this is how we talk at home, which is different from how we talk at school."
Maybe your gaming podcasts are inappropriate for other reasons too, I dunno.
The GWJ podcast is really good. (And I am not saying that just because it is the site )
Have you considered just not caring about swearing in front of your kids? 'Cause it's really liberating, and they're better than you'd think about learning, "this is how we talk at home, which is different from how we talk at school."
Maybe your gaming podcasts are inappropriate for other reasons too, I dunno.
A thought I have struggled with and am speaking with eldest about semi regularly. My current thought process is as follows although open to discussion and I would welcome challenge:
I am fine with swearing they are just words however they can be offensive to some especially those that stem from a place of gender and sex (F**K and C**t are good examples) I will be happy for you (my child) to use them dependent on context around me. However you need to learn the impact these words can have on others and how situation and context matter hugely, you shouldn't use them till you know everyone is ok with it AND it might still put you at situational disadvantage, specifically in work.
Right now the best tool I can see to teach you to moderate language is to do so around me so I stick with it and don't swear or encourage it.
I really dont know if that will hold, and for how long its a very tricky matter in my head as I swear liberally outside of work 
I have tried the GWJ as it is my main podcast but can be a tad sweary dependent on guest!
I have tried the GWJ as it is my main podcast but can be a tad sweary dependent on guest!
O_o
I never even hear the swears. Imma have to pay more attention.
As for kid swearing, I am lucky in that once my kids started swearing, we knew it wasn't me. I swear in english. My kids were swearing in french, so I got to look at my wife and MIL and say "This is all on you!!"
I try to teach my oldest (who's 8) that swearing is fine depending on the swearword and the context. Swearing out of shock/pain is something everyone does and she won't get in trouble for it. Swearing at people is generally always bad, though might possibly be called for. Swearing for emphasis is sometimes useful but something she needs to be older for. It's a "you need to prove you understand and can follow the rules before you're allowed to bend/break them" kind of situation.
Have you considered just not caring about swearing in front of your kids? 'Cause it's really liberating, and they're better than you'd think about learning, "this is how we talk at home, which is different from how we talk at school."
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Mostly this is how we roll. Told the kid we don't mind if she swears at home but swearing at school will get her in trouble.
Works for us, BUT only because our kid is very into following the rules.
I've been swearing like a f*cking sailor since 2nd grade when my buddy in 3rd grade taught me some illuminating words (Thanks, Marcus, wherever you are). I turned out alright.
hbi2k wrote:Have you considered just not caring about swearing in front of your kids? 'Cause it's really liberating, and they're better than you'd think about learning, "this is how we talk at home, which is different from how we talk at school."
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Mostly this is how we roll. Told the kid we don't mind if she swears at home but swearing at school will get her in trouble.
Works for us, BUT only because our kid is very into following the rules.
Our kids are really not all that into following the rules (especially the teenager...) but this has been working pretty well for us too. We were already headed in that direction but having a teenager in the house meant we'd be making everyone miserable policing it constantly or go another route. We do talk a lot about communicating differently in different contexts, for swearing as well as other things that we have open dialogue about at home but might not be appropriate at school etc.
Our kids are really not all that into following the rules (especially the teenager...) but this has been working pretty well for us too. We were already headed in that direction but having a teenager in the house meant we'd be making everyone miserable policing it constantly or go another route. We do talk a lot about communicating differently in different contexts, for swearing as well as other things that we have open dialogue about at home but might not be appropriate at school etc.
Yep, that's how we do it as well. I occasionally swear when things go bad (hurt myself on accident, etc) and we had multiple discussions about when and where it's ok to use those words after my youngest threw out a "sh*tballs" in class when he spilled a glass of water. Neither of them are prone to using swears and have learned to curtail their language when it's not necessary or they are outside their home. It all comes down to communication and trust.
On the other hand "your mom" jokes are apparently the funniest things in the world now. *throws up hands in the air*
The Yo momma jokes kicked in a few years ago for our teen boy. I occasionally drop one back on him when we're having father-son time (referring specifically to his mother to make him deliberately CRINGE and point out, well, you're dissing somebody's mother and maybe it's time to find another way to rib your friends.
Swearing is a mixed bag. Teen boy drops the s word, very occasionally (and in my hearing only) the F bomb. He knows the ground rules - never drop swearwords near his mother or grandmother, and never at his sister.
The girl simply does not swear. God knows how that happened - I'm the biggest hypocrite when it comes to swearing at home.
The current bugbear in the home is the reaction from the kids when we pull them away from gaming/YT. Have a read of this article which discusses the consequences of not inserting breaks between gaming sessions.
We had a confrontation over the weekend about this, the anger and moodiness from the teen boy when he is repeatedly called for meals or his music lessons. I need to work out how I am going to approach the discusion. If someone's figured this out, please let me know.
Yeah I'll let you know when I figure out how to pry myself away from games before 1230am every night. 
Attack the idea, not the person! Reported!
Fortunately the boy ordinarily clocks off for each night without staying up too late. Well, ever since he started high school and looked likely to surpass my height and hit 6' we've been more relaxed about bedtime enforcement. We have a soft rule of about 10:00pm but he won't go too far past 10:30pm.
Yesterday I managed to leave the office at 5 and got home for the kids' weekly swimming lessons. I think the kids appreciate me doing it (even though my wife always takes them and my attendance is not as regular and all I do is shoot high fives, thumbs up and peace signs at them from the poolside bench). Anyway I like to think it then set up the evening for more bonding time once we got home and the boy practiced his music studies, with me casually squeezing in some Phantom Brigade and spectating his practice.
Then he had a rant about how school teaches you things that have no practical use in life and that spending 10 minutes on Google and researching a topic (in this instance, cell structures and plant lifeforms) was more efficient than listening to his science teacher's lesson for an hour. He said he absorbed that lesson's information in the 10 minutes he independently researched the lesson's content and spent the rest of the hour gaming. Alas, why did I think buying a gaming laptop was a good idea...
Unsurprisingly, this triggered me and I began a half hour lecture about the benefits of having broad general knowledge, the structure of the school curriculum and how the system is designed to have teachers parrot content and students are assessed on how well they regurgitate the curriculum in examinations.
Surprisingly, he sat through it without blinking an eye and listened as I told him to critically examine his lessons against the background of the curriculum and broader society. For example, he hates his English teacher (apparently she wants their class to write essays at Year 10 proficiency...they're in Year 8...and her advice to date apparently has been to write more volume and use more complex words) but he is really enjoying the class text, a science fiction Terra Nullius text set in Australia with major First Nations themes. I asked him to think about the British invasion and colonisation of Australia, the "white guilt" and efforts to reconcile with our First Nations people. Thus, I told him that at a minimum students are expected to be able to identify the plot, characters and key themes relevant to European colonialism as manifested in the book, but beyond that curriculum, he could tie that knowledge to contemporary issues in modern society and if he has spare academic energy he could look deeper into those themes which would make his written work stand out from his peers. Or, use the efficiency gains from deconstructing the curriculum and increasing speed of mastery of content to do other things...preferably not more gaming but stuff like his music studies and coding.
Meanwhile, the girl (year 5) is working hard to grasp long form multiplication. After some time had passed in our 45 minutes session earlier in the week, she confided in me the school has only taught double digit by single digit multiplication so the arithmetic model for long form multiplication wasn't something she knew how to perform. I get the impression she finds it difficult to ask for help and is too ashamed to ask for it, and I really need to work on reassuring her there's no shame in not knowing something and it's perfectly normal
I hate to say it, but I got a bit frustrated occasionally as I watched her replicate mistakes which indicated she wasn't picking up the concepts but I came to realise it wasn't her fault for not grasping the concept but rather my fault as a parent for not explaining the process better. This forced me to reconsider the content and find other ways to explain the underlying process which she could better appreciate. We had some slightly teary moments but by the end of our first night she was much farther ahead in her understanding although there's still quite a way to go. We had lots of hugs as I apologised for my impatience while I tucked her in for the night and we agreed I would work on being a kinder and better teacher and she would sit with me to master her maths. Her maths comprehension is not as advanced as her brother but conversely her reading and writing is well above grade and she has no problem with verbosity and articulation in her written work.
I constantly marvel at how two kids in the same family can have such different strengths and weaknesses. It's super obvious when they're in the pool but learning is such a subtle thing.
Why is parenting so difficult?
The Yo momma jokes kicked in a few years ago for our teen boy. I occasionally drop one back on him when we're having father-son time (referring specifically to his mother to make him deliberately CRINGE and point out, well, you're dissing somebody's mother and maybe it's time to find another way to rib your friends.
Swearing is a mixed bag. Teen boy drops the s word, very occasionally (and in my hearing only) the F bomb. He knows the ground rules - never drop swearwords near his mother or grandmother, and never at his sister.
The girl simply does not swear. God knows how that happened - I'm the biggest hypocrite when it comes to swearing at home.
The current bugbear in the home is the reaction from the kids when we pull them away from gaming/YT. Have a read of this article which discusses the consequences of not inserting breaks between gaming sessions.
We had a confrontation over the weekend about this, the anger and moodiness from the teen boy when he is repeatedly called for meals or his music lessons. I need to work out how I am going to approach the discusion. If someone's figured this out, please let me know.
Thanks for that link. Going to check it out.
Re: transitioning from technology.
Here's how we handle that in our house. We put rules around how much and when screen time can happen. For instance, the boy's (9) Switch is controlled by me via the app and it's 1hr avail on Fri, 1.5 on Sat/Sun and nothing else (unless there's a holiday, and then it's a judgment call). Generally allow him to use that time kinda when he wants and when it's up, it's up. Often I'll allow him to use it for long drives on the weekend or as a reward after 2hrs of tutoring on Saturdays. For TV, try to have that at set times on the weekends (in the morning, or after family contributions are done, or as a family for Movie Nights). If I'm being honest, I'd like for there to be less screen time (they're both getting way more than I got at their age!) but I also know that I'm often drained and, quite frankly, want a break and let them just hang out. For the most part, it's working ok. So far. That could change as they get older.
We haven't ever enforced strict screen time. Part of that lies in how neither I or my wife were ever restricted on screen time / gaming and we seemed to have turned out alright.
In saying this, the behavioural thing is quite noticeable in our household from etime to time, although once dragged away from their devices and occupied with other activities, they tend to enjoy an outing / new experience.
I think, if it gets to the point we start to see "hikkimori" like behaviours and just generally shunning of their real life friends and family, then we'll get more proactive about the situation.
For us, setting expectations on time up front helps, but also being flexible at times.
So set a one hour limit and give them a five minute reminder. If all is going well and they can ask politely, we may give some extra time. If there is attitude or impolite push back, it is off immediately and no more for X time.
Also, setting the rules to get it in the first place. Is homework done? Is music done? Are chores done? etc.
How's everyone doing with school these days?
Our son is struggling at his current school and we've got him doing some formal tutoring that is showing progress. He gets distracted easily and is not internally motivated (9yo), which is hard to understand for myself and in particular for my wife (Lisa Simpson + Hermione). Could just be how he is at 9. Or he needs more structure. He appears to do well with structured environments (tutoring, his Tae Kwon Do school is very old-school).
We are increasingly frustrated with the school, which seems to have a bit of a shrug emoji approach to getting learning outcomes met. Evidence: zero memorization, no multiplication tables, you get a spelling question right if you got the first letter correct (?!), if a kid melts down and throws a chair, the rest of the class leaves so that the one kid gets direct teacher support, etc. In tutoring he does the old school approach and is progressing. That said, plenty is still on him to stay focused and on-task (or as much as is reasonable for an active kid).
We are looking at a local Jesuit school for him.
Problem statement: we are not religious.
I am trying to weigh the trade-offs of better learning outcomes with the stress of changing schools next year + cognitive dissonance of being in a class with daily prayer, weekly Mass, etc.
My biases: am quite uncomfortable sending him to one of the local Christian (Protestant) schools. That's a me thing, not a him thing.
Open to all thoughts/perspectives.
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