How to Be an All-Inclusive Gender Thread

Public service announcement: Revlon's ultimate colorstay lip gloss is serious about that whole "stay" thing. I put some on last evening then ate, drank, kissed my wife, brushed my teeth, showered, washed my face, slept, ate again, brushed my teeth again, and the color wasn't diminished one jot. I ended up stopping back at home after dropping my son off at pre-school so that I could take it off with some eye makeup remover. It's good to know I've got a lip gloss that'll stick around so well; but it's also good to know that I need to put some extra care into removing it before I go into work.

An interesting article about how the upcoming DSM-5 depathologizes being transgender.

Okay, I'm wigging out less today than yesterday, which is good. I probably shouldn't have been too surprised at a wait of a couple of months, but... It's still kind of hard when I'd basically waited until I was like "it's time now" before looking into things. And, I had some work stuff going on that didn't really give me a lot of time to think about things.

On the positive side, I suppose this gives me more time to keep working on weight loss in the meantime. Better to be in a place where I feel that I can actively gain weight instead of still wanting to lose more weight while hormones are trying to do their puberty thing.

rather moving note from Christina Kahrl (co-founder of Baseball Prospectus and writer for ESPN) on the 10th anniversary of her first estrogen therapy:

http://www.rationaltransactions.com/...

Strekos wrote:

rather moving note from Christina Kahrl (co-founder of Baseball Prospectus and writer for ESPN) on the 10th anniversary of her first estrogen therapy:

http://www.rationaltransactions.com/...

The comment on that is really sweet too.

Oh, Hypatian. I just sat here for about 20 seconds trying to figure out what wigging out meant because I knew you had wigs. I...I am so ashamed!

[size=8]Yes, I know what it means colloquially : ([/size]

ClockworkHouse wrote:

It's good to know I've got a lip gloss that'll stick around so well; but it's also good to know that I need to put some extra care into removing it before I go into work.

Some hand lotions will break down the "stay" type lip colors. I'll put a little on tissue to help get the stay-on off if I'm not around makeup remover.

I'll lend my voice of support to this thread. For as long as I can remember I've had people in my life that weren't comfortable with their birth sex, and as I got older I had to adjust to the concept that so many people don't seem to understand that reality.

While I don't have much detailed experience with people going through their transitions, some one with my name has written about her experiences and thoughts.
http://jskahen.blogspot.com/2010/01/...
Perhaps some of the shared thoughts there will be of use.

Thanks for the link, jennska.

Amoebic: I actually thought about that when I sent it, for the same wig-having reasons. Having wigs makes it an even funnier way to freak out.

No real news this week. I was out of town for work, so I didn't meet with my therapist. Will do that on Wednesday, and talk about "OMG, hormones, long time!" (which I've mostly gotten over, though I still get a kind of butterfly feeling just thinking about it, and kind of sad), and probably final or semi-final thoughts about family, since I'll be leaving on my trip to visit them a week from Monday.

I bought some clogs today, bringing my androgynous wardrobe fully operational. I almost always wear oxfords in guy-mode, and I like them even in girl-mode--like button-up shirts and jeans, they're in a good androgynous place. But clogs are just a touch on the feminine side, along with the girl jeans, and the girl coat, and a patterned scarf, etc. So now I can go just slightly to the feminine side of androgyny in basically everything except tops. I don't think I'll be able to rock more feminine tops until I've lost a bit more weight and hormones have begun to do their work, although I am trying to do more interesting things with guy tops.

I figure I'll keep shifting things as I go. I feel kind of helpless about color--my taste is pretty monochrome to begin with. I'm a bit more comfortable with color in straight up feminine things than I am with it in androgynous things, just because it feels like a bigger marker to do things like match colors in accessories. (And that's what really gets me staying monochrome a lot: if I don't, I feel like I want to match things up, but that requires a [em]lot[/em] of things, and feels more openly feminine than I'm comfortable expressing while at work at the moment.)

ANYway, whee.

I still haven't worn my girl coat to work, because I get all freaked out about what to say if somebody comments on it (which is really really unlikely, but... well... one of our secretaries is an older woman who also works part time at Macy's, and if anybody would notice something like that, I think she would. And she's a bit on the conservative side in a lot of ways, so that gets me all worried.) Also, I haven't decided whether I want to wear that coat when I travel to visit family. I feel increasingly "meh" about my guy coat--partially because it's a guy coat, partially because I've lost enough weight that it's gone from "squarish sack that was slightly too large when I bought it" to "squarish tent". My worries with wearing it on my trip are basically the same as with work, but more directed. A random person on the street might notice that the style seems a bit unusual, but probably wouldn't realize why. The woman at work is more likely to realize why because she does clothes. My mom and sister are more likely to realize why because I'm out to them. My dad is unlikely to realize why assuming he even notices anything at all, but I suspect my mom and sister might give me the hairy eyeball anyway for doing something "obvious" pre-Christmas (since I've promised to avoid the drama until after, for the sake of the kids' christmas.)

It's times like this that I hate my ability to argue myself in circles.

I'm alternately excited and terrified thinking about the trip. The drama is going to be a huge mess, but... I'm really looking forward to not having to hold things back any more, and to the chance of [em]really[/em] having a chance to talk to everyone about things.

P.S. Oh, on the weight-loss front: I got an Atari T-shirt today for the heck of it. Men's large. It's the first time in many many years that I've worn a T-shirt without feeling like I either had it painted onto my gut (L) or was wearing a tent (XL). Kind of a nice feeling. It also helps a lot with the button-down shirts. I'm down from 212 to 178, and can almost fit size 12 in pants and skirts now. Size 14 definitely feels a bit big (although I suspect that size 14 would feel less "too large" if I had hips to go with my waist so that clothes had somewhere to settle.)

P.P.S. Maybe pgroce will chime in with what he thinks about the coat, since he's seen me wearing it. I don't think his wife saw it, so I can't get her opinion--but I think I'm going to be going over for dinner next week, so maybe I'll get both of their takes on it then.

I want to see this magical girly coat please

Cuuuuute!

Hmm. I'm pretty sure it's this coat in black. So it's not super girly, but it's certainly more girly than a giant square tent. I'm just super super paranoid for some reason. (And I'm [em]still[/em] working on not always reaching for the buttons on the wrong side.)

I've seen some women wearing really cute coats with hoods, and I kind of want one. (To the extent that one day I was shopping and if I'd found one I liked I totally would have impulse-bought it.) But I don't [em]really[/em] have a huge need for a large stock of coats right now.

Also, I'll see if I can remember to make pgroce take a photo of me in it when I visit, because I am [em]tired[/em] of facebook-cam.

Edit: Oh, and I do wear it out quite a bit now when I'm not at work. Like tonight when I went to DSW. So yeah, paranoia. Nobody is going to comment, but I get stressed. It's funny... I'm not really freaked out by the idea of getting looks from people once I go full time, even though I totally expect to get a lot of funny looks. But right now, while I'm just going for androgyny, I get terribly anxious about it. :p

I thought the coat looked sharp. Funny thing about women's clothes; A lot of them differ from male styles in only subtle ways, and they tend to be the ways fashionable men's clothes distinguish themselves. (My Brooks Brothers shirt is the most (um, intentionally) form-fitting shirt I own.)

Therefore: when someone reads you as male and you're wearing a relatively androgynous item in a women's style, you just come off as a stylish dude.

For this reason, I tend to buy cheap sunglasses in the women's section. If I ever splash some cash on sunglasses, they'll probably be a men's style, but I really just look for what I think looks good.

To needlessly overanalyze: You can think of fashion, like any visual art, as a dialog between the artist (or clothes-wearer) and the viewer. When you wear clothes with confidence, you push people to accept your reference frame, and that makes the rest of the dialog much more favorable to you.

(These are the sorts of things you think about when you decide to wear bow ties.)

These are, of course, only the musings and impressions of a guy. Women probably process these things at least a bit differently.

Also, you now weigh less than I do. Granted, I'm taller, but still, I feel like I need I step up my game.

clover wrote:

Cuuuuute!

+1 to that - it's a really nice coat!

Hypatian wrote:

But I don't [em]really[/em] have a huge need for a large stock of coats right now.

This stops you? I should look into this more. My lack of caring about need vs. want would totally explain the over-abundance of cute coats in my closet.

I agree with pgroce though, some women's clothes are not so much different than fashionable men's clothing - and to be honest, I sometimes get a little jealous that men's fashionable clothing is so nice and simple and classic looking, while women's clothing is tarted up with ruffles, and teeny belts, and comes in eyeball exploding shades of fuchsia and chartreuse.

Dear Clothing Manufacturers,

I am female and like being pretty, but have no love for ruffles, or flaming pink, or things made of 100% rayon/spandex/other unnatural material. So, you know, make other stuff besides that, OK?
Love,
me

I double post for cute coats!

That's true with the ruffles and other such gewgaws. On the other side... well, looking in the men's section at DSW the other day there were [em]very[/em] few pairs of shoes that weren't black, dark brown, or taupe. Sure, those are all pretty neutral, but I wouldn't mind [em]some[/em] color! Ahh, well.

I think it's possible to do well on both sides of the aisle--but on both sides, you really have to be selective to find things to your taste. Now that I'm used to the idea of shopping for clothes online, I can see myself doing a lot more of that in the future. There's a risk of sizing problems, but it's much easier to find a huge variety of things to pick winners from, rather than just what stores happen to be stocking right now.

As far as "that stops you?" Hehe. Well, it probably wouldn't, except that I'm already having clothes that I bought towards the beginning of my adventure be a bit bigger on me than I would like. I've lost about 35 pounds now, and I'm hoping to lose another 30 pounds or so by the time I start on hormones. After the hormones start to kick in, I'll probably aim to gain some weight to give my second puberty something to work with... and who [em]knows[/em] what kind of shape I'll end up having after that! (Probably the effects won't be all that dramatic, but... a girl can dream, can't she?)

That uncertainty makes a pretty powerful argument to restrain myself, no matter how cute I think something might be.

Edit: Also, it is [em]so[/em] easy to spend a ton of time "window-shopping" online. And in that vein, if anybody ever comes across something super-cute or awesome online, you should totally link it. Introductions to nice things are always welcome.

Hypatian wrote:

Edit: Also, it is [em]so[/em] easy to spend a ton of time "window-shopping" online. And in that vein, if anybody ever comes across something super-cute or awesome online, you should totally link it. Introductions to nice things are always welcome. :)

I'll try my best not to post the entire internet into this space.

I neeed to bitch and hope someone has advice.
So i go to someones house last night. a person i rarely hang out with, and her roommate is a person I've been in and out of friendship with and am currently I guess professional adversaries in animation. IE we hate each other. I walk in say hi and try to be polite because im there with the other person. AND WHAT DO I SEE my artwork printed off of Deviant art on their wall with holes in the eyes as if it was used as a mask..... so I ask whats it doing there I never gave y'all that and they couldn't answer me. So in the last 24 hours Ive learned that I have a spending problem, im seriously unhealthy, one of my best friends from the military treated me like a f*ck and bailed on me after 2 hours visiting, and im being made a laughing stock in the animation community at my school. ummm wow good thing im getting out of college soon. P.S. I report a fire to student housing and got bitched at and tried to report a protester getting spit on and harassed to a cop yet couldnt find one AND reported a guy beating his girlfriend up and the cops didn't do anything!!!! If you include all that its in the last 5 days.

No advice, but sympathy. That's a helluva crappy week.

Holy crap, Ryoko, that's awful!

I'm not sure what to advise on a lot of that. However, I can say that cutting off "friends" that consistently make you feel awful or small will lift a lot of weight off your shoulders, and give you the space and time to meet nicer people. At least, it worked out that way for me and I'm happier for it. YMMV.

Hugs to you, Ryoko, I hope it gets better!

Hypatian wrote:

That's true with the ruffles and other such gewgaws. On the other side... well, looking in the men's section at DSW the other day there were [em]very[/em] few pairs of shoes that weren't black, dark brown, or taupe. Sure, those are all pretty neutral, but I wouldn't mind [em]some[/em] color! Ahh, well.

I think it's possible to do well on both sides of the aisle--but on both sides, you really have to be selective to find things to your taste. Now that I'm used to the idea of shopping for clothes online, I can see myself doing a lot more of that in the future. There's a risk of sizing problems, but it's much easier to find a huge variety of things to pick winners from, rather than just what stores happen to be stocking right now.

As far as "that stops you?" Hehe. Well, it probably wouldn't, except that I'm already having clothes that I bought towards the beginning of my adventure be a bit bigger on me than I would like. I've lost about 35 pounds now, and I'm hoping to lose another 30 pounds or so by the time I start on hormones. After the hormones start to kick in, I'll probably aim to gain some weight to give my second puberty something to work with... and who [em]knows[/em] what kind of shape I'll end up having after that! (Probably the effects won't be all that dramatic, but... a girl can dream, can't she?)

That uncertainty makes a pretty powerful argument to restrain myself, no matter how cute I think something might be.

Edit: Also, it is [em]so[/em] easy to spend a ton of time "window-shopping" online. And in that vein, if anybody ever comes across something super-cute or awesome online, you should totally link it. Introductions to nice things are always welcome. :)

I can understand wanting to wait on a serious shopping spree for cute coats and things until your weight is more stable, esp. if you're losing a lot of weight rather quickly - you'll be buying new things every couple of weeks otherwise. I guess at this point you buy some good quality basic pieces - just a few - and then accessorize the hell out of them. Though, one super awesome coat, maybe two, is a good idea - you know, just to get a feel for what sort of styles you like best (here, let me enable you!).

I used to shop a lot at RW & Co. because their clothes are idiot proof; everything goes with everything else, but the past two years they've tended to carry colours that would look far better on me if I had dark hair and olive toned skin rather than red hair and pasty white skin... so, no RW for me.

I'm a huge fan of Icebreaker clothes - the women's stuff is really nice (though, if you're not comfortable with plunging necklines, avoid the 'V' necks - they are cut extremely low). Their stuff is expensive, but they have some great basics - black skirts, dresses, and classic cut stuff that always looks good no matter what the current trend is and it lasts damn near forever.

It also travels well without turning into a horrible wrinkled mess that looks like you slept in it the moment you pull it out of your suitcase.

Mimble wrote:

Holy crap, Ryoko, that's awful!

I'm not sure what to advise on a lot of that. However, I can say that cutting off "friends" that consistently make you feel awful or small will lift a lot of weight off your shoulders, and give you the space and time to meet nicer people. At least, it worked out that way for me and I'm happier for it. YMMV.

Hugs to you, Ryoko, I hope it gets better!

Ryoko, that is the suckiest 5 days I've heard of in a while. I agree with Mimble, and if it's any consolation, I only have contact with one of the people I graduated from college with.

Now that I think about it, I'm only friends with two people I went to university with. I had more friends than that when I was there, but only these two friendships from that period have lasted to the present day. And they both live on the other side of the country, so I don't see them very often.

Maybe I will call them today and say hello.

Oh jeez, Ryoko, that sounds awful. I don't understand why people are so nasty to each other when it takes so little effort to be a decent human being.

As I wrote that, I had to stop and think for a while. There are definitely things I've said in the recent past that weren't intended to be hurtful, but which could definitely really upset someone if they came across them in the wrong context. They're generally intended to be kind of snippy criticisms of ways of doing things or ways of thinking that I don't think work well. But those systems all have people behind them, and for the most part those people are just trying to do the best they can. If they heard me being snippy in that way, I'm sure they'd feel it personally. I'd like to believe that I'd be willing to explain, and able to explain enough that they wouldn't feel personally hurt afterwards. But--I know that some of the damage would already be done. So, maybe a new year's resolution for me there--I'm not always as mindful as I ought to be. I'm not always as good a person as I'd like to be.

Anyway, I hope things get better for you, Ryoko. It always sucks when a whole pile of suck comes crashing down at once like that. Even over time, the little things can add up. But when it's all at the same time, it's just euggh.

I just came out to a person at work that I wanted to come out to a while back, but hadn't from a mixture of "OMG, every time coming out to someone is so incredibly scary" and "OMG, awkward". We've known each other for many years, but we're both pretty reserved about sharing personal stuff, so extra extreme levels of awkward.

Still, I'm really glad to have done it, because it's been kind of eating at me for a while. Knowing one more person out there knows and accepts me is going to help when the family stuff starts.

Of course, even knowing that he would be accepting, I still got cold sweats. I had forgotten that that was a real literal thing.

Congrats, Hypatian! I imagine it's scary as hell, but hopefully will get easier with time and practice.

Congrats, Hyp!

I can't even imagine how scary/awkward that was, but I have nothing but admiration for your courage, and I'm really happy that the person you told is being supportive of you.

http://ryokosnoirelife.tumblr.com/image/37728608905

no doin anything to my face.... not really happy with 9 months of Est. thinking it was a bit to late in my adult developmental cycle to get anything outta them

Quoted so your link will go

Hmm. Are you still working on facial hair removal? The shape of the area around your mouth and chin has an appearance that I believe is emphasized by having a lot of active hair follicles. (If you've already got that taken care of, I'm obviously wrong about that, and will have an additional thing to wonder "what's going to happen there?" about my own face. (: )

I think the biggest masculine-looking feature I see is your jawline. But I think a slightly different hairstyle (a little longer, a little more towards the front at the bottom?) could soften that quite a bit.

There's something going on with the top of your face, but I'm not sure what. I think it looks pretty fine, but longer side-swept bangs or a different style of glasses might be nicer.

Take absolutely [em]everything[/em] I say with a grain of salt, because I am a total noob.

But, overall, I think there are just a few features that are just masculine enough to put your slightly on the masculine side of androgynous. If any one of them changed a little, or even from a slightly different angle, I think it could totally go the other way. That probably means body language is going to have a big impact, too.

P.S. If you're "too late in your adult developmental cycle", then I'm doomed. And I don't think I'm doomed. :p

Hypatian wrote:

Hmm. Are you still working on facial hair removal? The shape of the area around your mouth and chin has an appearance that I believe is emphasized by having a lot of active hair follicles. (If you've already got that taken care of, I'm obviously wrong about that, and will have an additional thing to wonder "what's going to happen there?" about my own face. (: )

I think the biggest masculine-looking feature I see is your jawline. But I think a slightly different hairstyle (a little longer, a little more towards the front at the bottom?) could soften that quite a bit.

There's something going on with the top of your face, but I'm not sure what. I think it looks pretty fine, but longer side-swept bangs or a different style of glasses might be nicer.

Take absolutely [em]everything[/em] I say with a grain of salt, because I am a total noob.

But, overall, I think there are just a few features that are just masculine enough to put your slightly on the masculine side of androgynous. If any one of them changed a little, or even from a slightly different angle, I think it could totally go the other way. That probably means body language is going to have a big impact, too.

P.S. If you're "too late in your adult developmental cycle", then I'm doomed. And I don't think I'm doomed. :p

Weighing in, and feel free to totally ignore everything (after all, what do I know anyway?).

That being said, I agree with Hyp.

I think a page boy style hair cut would suit your jawline really well, something that falls just past the jawline and curls under just slightly, and as Hyp said, is a little longer toward the front - and some side-swept bangs - would look great on you. Plus, if you did go with slightly slimmer/lighter coloured frames in your glasses, it would put more emphasis on your eyes which look to be a really nice shape and colour, but are a little obscured by the dark frames. Then again, perhaps some complementary eye makeup would help with that too. Hard to say from a single photo.

Regardless, whatever you're doing, keep on keeping on - you look great.