Stranger in a Strange Land: Help a heathen among the believers

kaostheory wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:
trichy wrote:

Part of me wonders if the shoe was on the other foot, if they were the lone Christian in a company of enthusiastically outspoken atheists, how would they react.

You could ask one of the Christians on GWJ.

Even here, Christians are likely in the vast majority, however, most are not super outspoken.

A GWJer census would be super fascinating. From a purely hypothetical stand point of course, it'd never happen. But I'd be interested to see how we compare to, say... other forums, or even countries with regards to religion, political and social beliefs, etc. /tangent

Muslims, like the fine colored Kenyan gentleman currently occupying the White House, may have the answer.

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

Muslims, like the fine colored Kenyan gentleman currently occupying the White House, may have the answer.

Redwing wrote:

The other thing to remember is, you could be doing your fellow heathens a service by being "That one atheist" your workmates know. The guy who doesn't believe the same things they do, but seems like a top bloke anyway, so perhaps atheists aren't the puppy-kicking devil-worshipers they've been led to believe?

Paleocon wrote:

Funny. I actually had a Mormon coworker tell me that, despite the fact that I am a degenerate atheist, I am a lot cooler about tolerating religion than most Christians he knows.

Whatever your belief system, I feel that the best way to get someone to accept your beliefs is to act in an upright way. I'm honestly not really interested in convincing people to adopt my belief structure if they're not independently interested. To the extent that I "evangelize" at all, it's through trying to act as an example against stereotypes, explaining what I believe with nuance, and trying to understand and appreciate others and their ideologies.

EDIT: I don't mean this as an endorsement of "passing." I'm not saying to conform to their values, but rather to try and live up to your own values, knowing that many of those values are going to be shared by your coworkers, even if they might express what might seem to be a conflicting value.

I have told people multiple times that once I walk into the office, my religion is work and my politics are work. Controversial subjects get in the way of what we are there to do. Just tell them, "I'm here to do X, and what I believe or who I vote for is irrelevant to that". If they push, it's time to talk to management, but, in my experience, just avoiding those sorts of topics up-front usually takes care of it.

wordsmythe wrote:

Whatever your belief system, I feel that the best way to get someone to accept your beliefs is to act in an upright way. I'm honestly not really interested in convincing people to adopt my belief structure if they're not independently interested. To the extent that I "evangelize" at all, it's through trying to act as an example against stereotypes, explaining what I believe with nuance, and trying to understand and appreciate others and their ideologies.

Spoken like a true Zoroastrian. I pegged you for that the moment I set eyes upon your words.

Trichy, I'm gonna suggest something weird, but consider it. Get a Bible (whichever flavor you like) and use the morning prayer time to read through it, 15 minutes at a go. It'll take quite a while. Keep it on your desk where people can see it.

It may make them feel easier, and it's not a bad book to be familiar with, *especially* if Christianity is weird to you (I don't recall your background). It would allow you (and them) the out that you're open-minded in your beliefs, and you can walk that line if you're careful.

Eventually, you could tell them you've become a Universalist Unitarian, and that would be progress. (Most of those are atheists or non-Christians, anyway, so no big deal.)

Seriously, though, nothing to shut down the hardline types than some evidence that you're not rejecting their religion out of hand. I said it would be a weird idea, and it is, but you'll know if you are comfortable with it or not, as an accommodation.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I have told people multiple times that once I walk into the office, my religion is work and my politics are work. Controversial subjects get in the way of what we are there to do. Just tell them, "I'm here to do X, and what I believe or who I vote for is irrelevant to that". If they push, it's time to talk to management, but, in my experience, just avoiding those sorts of topics up-front usually takes care of it.

Yep. I'm actually privileged to work in the Pacific Northwest where a socially liberal Libertarian will do great in most offices and actually my biggest annoyance is watching how conservatives are treated here. People bring politics into the office way too often in ways that are very in the face of their conservative brethren. I feel like if one of trichy's co-workers moved here almost every company would be a company where he could make the reverse post to his message board of choice. "How do I survive in a work place that barely tolerates people who are religious and definitely doesn't act cool around people who are conservative?"

Not all companies are that way, but so many small companies get away with developing a distinct culture that bends this direction that the few "out" conservatives I've had as co-workers every year are very very passive about their political beliefs. As I believe I would be in Trichy's situation.

BTW, the problem with "I prefer to be judged by my actions" with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists and other Grace-based doctrine believers is that they will *immediately* latch onto that to remind you than being saved is more important than any deeds. It's like waving a red flag saying "Save me! I don't know the Truth!".

kaostheory wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:
trichy wrote:

Part of me wonders if the shoe was on the other foot, if they were the lone Christian in a company of enthusiastically outspoken atheists, how would they react.

You could ask one of the Christians on GWJ.

Even here, Christians are likely in the vast majority, however, most are not super outspoken.

Possibly in terms of raw numbers. Certainly not in terms of posters who post about their beliefs or the beliefs of others.

Passing yourself off as someone who is definitely Christian but of a Protestant strain that holds to private worship and expressions of faith (the sectarian equivalent of the "girlfriend who lives in Canada") might resolve potential issues.

To wit:

  • Pestering about a "home church" isn't relevant if your faith demands private, solitary worship
  • Coworkers need not fret about an "unsaved" coworker and the concomitant fire hazard
  • Any disillusionment with the CEO or concern for the organization's mission because the boss hired a nonbeliever on the part of coworkers would be avoided

Select a sufficiently obscure sect, come up with a "commode story"/conversion narrative as cover, and you're set.

garion333 wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:

Whatever your belief system, I feel that the best way to get someone to accept your beliefs is to act in an upright way. I'm honestly not really interested in convincing people to adopt my belief structure if they're not independently interested. To the extent that I "evangelize" at all, it's through trying to act as an example against stereotypes, explaining what I believe with nuance, and trying to understand and appreciate others and their ideologies.

Spoken like a true Zoroastrian. I pegged you for that the moment I set eyes upon your words. ;)

I've always been curious to learn more about Zoroastrianism, actually.

Robear wrote:

BTW, the problem with "I prefer to be judged by my actions" with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists and other Grace-based doctrine believers is that they will *immediately* latch onto that to remind you than being saved is more important than any deeds. It's like waving a red flag saying "Save me! I don't know the Truth!".

Isn't... choosing to be saved... an action/deed?

Wordsmythe wrote:

I've always been curious to learn more about Zoroastrianism, actually.

Here you go, Wordy.

Demosthenes wrote:

Isn't... choosing to be saved... an action/deed?

No, not in the sense under discussion, which is earning a spiritual reward through your actions towards others.

wordsmythe wrote:
garion333 wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:

Whatever your belief system, I feel that the best way to get someone to accept your beliefs is to act in an upright way. I'm honestly not really interested in convincing people to adopt my belief structure if they're not independently interested. To the extent that I "evangelize" at all, it's through trying to act as an example against stereotypes, explaining what I believe with nuance, and trying to understand and appreciate others and their ideologies.

Spoken like a true Zoroastrian. I pegged you for that the moment I set eyes upon your words. ;)

I've always been curious to learn more about Zoroastrianism, actually.

I can't say that Zoroastrianism promotes evangelizing as you described, I mostly picked it because I thought you (and others) would recognize it. Their focus is, as far as I remember, on good deeds, so that portion stands up.

Robear wrote:

Here you go, Wordy.

Truly expected that to be a Wikipedia link or LMGTFY.

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

Passing yourself off as someone who is definitely Christian but of a Protestant strain that holds to private worship and expressions of faith (the sectarian equivalent of the "girlfriend who lives in Canada") might resolve potential issues.

To wit:

  • Pestering about a "home church" isn't relevant if your faith demands private, solitary worship
  • Coworkers need not fret about an "unsaved" coworker and the concomitant fire hazard
  • Any disillusionment with the CEO or concern for the organization's mission because the boss hired a nonbeliever on the part of coworkers would be avoided

Select a sufficiently obscure sect, come up with a "commode story"/conversion narrative as cover, and you're set.

Wait, so you are asking him to pretend he is something he is not? He has already, if I recall correctly, a couple of his bosses that he is an atheist, and they support him. I a not sure that pretending to be religious is a good idea. If it comes out that he was just pretending, it will poison his coworkers towards him in an impressive way that might leave his bosses with no choice but to let him go.

Robear wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:

Isn't... choosing to be saved... an action/deed?

No, not in the sense under discussion, which is earning a spiritual reward through your actions towards others.

Well, not in the sense that many evangelical sects refer to "works." The proper Christianese for what I was talking about is something like "You will know the tree by its fruits." "Fruits" is indeed the term that gets thrown around.

Keeping in mind, for those who know their New Testament, that a lot of evangelical sects don't spend a lot of time in James. I think that's what Robear's warning about—this fear that you might think that you can earn your way into heaven.

Yeah, let me go ahead and say that pretending to be something I'm not is not at all something I'm prepared to do. My beliefs are just as important to me as theirs are to them, and I don't feel like I should have to peruse a bible or say that I'm a sooper sekrit Christian to fit in.

I wasn't suggesting reading the Bible as a "fake" thing, but more as a reaching-out-in-good-faith gesture. Something that might mollify the suspicious. As I noted, anyone with claims to English literacy should read it at least once.

Robear wrote:

I wasn't suggesting reading the Bible as a "fake" thing, but more as a reaching-out-in-good-faith gesture. Something that might mollify the suspicious. As I noted, anyone with claims to English literacy should read it at least once.

My father required all of his kids, before we were 18, to read and discuss with him the Bible, the Koran, and the Talmud.

Or you could go the other direction. Proclaim yourself a Pastafarian. Decorate your cube and car with Flying Spaghetti Monster stuff. For even more spectacular results, go Wiccan and do up the pentagrams. Talk about nekkid frolicing in the forest.

Spoiler:

Don't do this.

Assuming that discovering the boss hired a heathen won't upset anyone else at the company, particularly the people who insist to potential customers that everyone in the business is a Christian, then do what thou wilt.

I'm just wondering why this is a surprise at all if you toured the place first. I would have thought the first prominently displayed psalm or Precious Moments nativity scene would've been a red flag. Kind of like noticing there are no plastic forks in the break room.

trichy wrote:

Yeah, let me go ahead and say that pretending to be something I'm not is not at all something I'm prepared to do. My beliefs are just as important to me as theirs are to them, and I don't feel like I should have to peruse a bible or say that I'm a sooper sekrit Christian to fit in.

Good plan.

trichy wrote:

Yeah, let me go ahead and say that pretending to be something I'm not is not at all something I'm prepared to do. My beliefs are just as important to me as theirs are to them, and I don't feel like I should have to peruse a bible or say that I'm a sooper sekrit Christian to fit in.

It's always best to just be yourself. It's not on you to make them more comfortable with your presence. The onus is on them to be respectful of fellow employees including anyone they may consider an "outsider".

I'll start by saying that I commend you for being open minded about joining a company with beliefs different from your own -- I'm not sure I could take the plunge out of sheer discomfort! I kind of panic about how to respond to a lot of the casual kindnesses (have a blessed day! I'm praying for you!) I'm always caught off guard.

I know you were excited about the professional opportunities with this one, so focusing on what you're learning and the possibility of eventually launching it into another job where your beliefs are more in line with the mission is helpful to remember. Also, as a writer it could be a good chance to better understand Christians if a character from that background ever happens to be necessary in a future story.

Maybe consider it like an ethnographic study? Sit back and observe, learn more about their perspectives, and once you find co-workers who are comfortable with your beliefs ask respectful questions about theirs. You kind of get to be an insider-as-outsider in this situation which is always interesting if you're curious about the minds of others! Maybe playing Jane Goodall will help you detach personally a little bit as well.

DiscoDriveby wrote:

I'll start by saying that I commend you for being open minded about joining a company with beliefs different from your own -- I'm not sure I could take the plunge out of sheer discomfort! I kind of panic about how to respond to a lot of the casual kindnesses (have a blessed day! I'm praying for you!) I'm always caught off guard.

I know you were excited about the professional opportunities with this one, so focusing on what you're learning and the possibility of eventually launching it into another job where your beliefs are more in line with the mission is helpful to remember. Also, as a writer it could be a good chance to better understand Christians if a character from that background ever happens to be necessary in a future story.

Maybe consider it like an ethnographic study? Sit back and observe, learn more about their perspectives, and once you find co-workers who are comfortable with your beliefs ask respectful questions about theirs. You kind of get to be an insider-as-outsider in this situation which is always interesting if you're curious about the minds of others! Maybe playing Jane Goodall will help you detach personally a little bit as well.

I have to say, when I started this thread, I didn't expect a Gorillas in the Mist suggestion.

trichy wrote:
DiscoDriveby wrote:

I'll start by saying that I commend you for being open minded about joining a company with beliefs different from your own -- I'm not sure I could take the plunge out of sheer discomfort! I kind of panic about how to respond to a lot of the casual kindnesses (have a blessed day! I'm praying for you!) I'm always caught off guard.

I know you were excited about the professional opportunities with this one, so focusing on what you're learning and the possibility of eventually launching it into another job where your beliefs are more in line with the mission is helpful to remember. Also, as a writer it could be a good chance to better understand Christians if a character from that background ever happens to be necessary in a future story.

Maybe consider it like an ethnographic study? Sit back and observe, learn more about their perspectives, and once you find co-workers who are comfortable with your beliefs ask respectful questions about theirs. You kind of get to be an insider-as-outsider in this situation which is always interesting if you're curious about the minds of others! Maybe playing Jane Goodall will help you detach personally a little bit as well.

I have to say, when I started this thread, I didn't expect a Gorillas in the Mist suggestion. :)

As someone who once considered herself a writer (oh sad, not anymore), I can make pretty much anything an ethnographic study. *COUGH* PenCon *COUGH*

DiscoDriveby wrote:

I kind of panic about how to respond to a lot of the casual kindnesses (have a blessed day! I'm praying for you!) I'm always caught off guard.

Just say "thanks". Don't overthink things. If someone is genuinely saying a positive thing then "thanks" is usually good enough.

garion333 wrote:
DiscoDriveby wrote:

I kind of panic about how to respond to a lot of the casual kindnesses (have a blessed day! I'm praying for you!) I'm always caught off guard.

Just say "thanks". Don't overthink things. If someone is genuinely saying a positive thing then "thanks" is usually good enough.

A "You too" for the kindness (which in my experience usually is interpreted by the person who started the exchange as "you have a blessed day too") can also do wonders.