Irrational Games Closing, Ken Levine Starting New Team @ Take-Two

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
shoptroll wrote:
Parallax Abstraction wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:

I guess there won't be any more Irrational podcasts.

This bums me out huge. I loved Irrational Behavior and Irrational Interviews. :(

There hasn't been a new one in over a year to two. They stopped doing them after Infinite went into crunch mode :(

But the RSS feed was still there and still responded. I kept holding out hope...

Me too! Absolutely loved the interview shows. A shame they stopped doing them.

Edit: and maybe that's part of the reason Ken wants to start back at square 1. Ken was the lead voice in many of those shows, and if he was having a hard time managing a 100+ employee studio then somethings are just going to be left by the wayside :/

There's still a lot of details we don't know obviously but I've been reading some stuff theorising that BioShock Infinite was not profitable. It sold 4 million copies (which isn't considered great for AAA any more, 5+ million is usually necessary now) and was many years late which means it probably needed to sell more way more than 5M in the end. Some people are guessing that the studio was slated to be axed severely downsized anyway and Ken was going to leave but Take-Two gave him this opportunity to keep him in the company but still be able to do what they thought was necessary downsizing. No idea how true that is but it's interesting and if BioShock Infinite in fact didn't turn a profit despite its large sales and critical acclaim, well that's just a damn shame in my opinion.

Worth pointing out that profitability hasn't been pointed at as the reason for this change.

Yanno, if a game isn't profitable at 4 million copies, that's a management issue. There are very few games that sell more than that.

B:I really has the feel of a storyteller that didn't really know what he wanted to do when he started. Remember all those awesome trailers that never made it into the actual game? Those cost big, big bucks to create. You don't really get to iterate on ideas too many times when you've got a hundred people on staff... you need to do that when you're at five or ten. And I got the impression that maybe the Big Twist in B:I was something that he didn't hit on until pretty late in development. There wasn't enough foreshadowing. The first Bioshock was exquisitely good at setting up the plot twist, because I think he knew where he was going when he started.... this one didn't really foreshadow it properly, and I suspect that's because he didn't know it was coming. It felt like the final final version of the story didn't show up until real late in the dev cycle.

And, for that matter, look how hard they pushed the Songbird, to the point of shipping a huge statue in the collector's box, and then it was barely even in the game.

I'd like to see him try something totally different. Something small and iterative, maybe.

But what a bummer about the studio. They were giants.

Demiurge wrote:

Worth pointing out that profitability hasn't been pointed at as the reason for this change.

True enough, nothing's been pointed at yet really. That said, I don't think there's any doubt that BioShock Infinite was a troubled project and I could certainly believe that it didn't make its money back after all that. Sadly, another reality of AAA right now is that in most cases, one flop's all you need to have your studio killed.

Malor wrote:

And I got the impression that maybe the Big Twist in B:I was something that he didn't hit on until pretty late in development. There wasn't enough foreshadowing. The first Bioshock was exquisitely good at setting up the plot twist, because I think he knew where he was going when he started.... this one didn't really foreshadow it properly, and I suspect that's because he didn't know it was coming. It felt like the final final version of the story didn't show up until real late in the dev cycle.

I don't know how you could get to that conclusion, because short of the barbershop quartet singing "This will be of important significance later......", I don't think they could have put any more foreshadowing in there. Even seemingly throwaway lines of dialogue carry a double meaning once you know what happens at the end.

Bioshock: Rapture Run! with IAP, incoming!

Has anyone heard if this is going to affect the release of the Burial at Sea: Episode 2? I thought it was nearly finished.

Puce Moose wrote:

Has anyone heard if this is going to affect the release of the Burial at Sea: Episode 2? I thought it was nearly finished.

That's coming out as scheduled. It's apparently done already.

Unexpected move, but I don't think people's quibbles with BioShock Infinite had anything to do with it :P.

Malor wrote:

Yanno, if a game isn't profitable at 4 million copies, that's a management issue. There are very few games that sell more than that.

If by management you mean taking 6 years to make the game, then yes.

I hate reading stories like these. What a sh*t industry to work for. It makes me stabby.

I don't know what's worse: a bunch of people getting laid off because of a poor financial situation, or getting laid off and company finances had nothing to do with it.

Boston (and by extension New England) has gotten crushed over the past few years for game industry. Things like this cause the state to bleed talent (some attracted from out of state thanks to a healthy-looking industry a few years ago, ahem) and now there's not much left except Turbine and Harmonix.

The game industry is seriously tilting back West again, which is too bad, cuz it costs way too much to live in Seattle, SF and LA.

Demiurge wrote:

Worth pointing out that profitability hasn't been pointed at as the reason for this change.

I think people are looking for a narrative that doesn't involve a major studio getting shut down because the head wanted to make smaller projects instead.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

There's still a lot of details we don't know obviously but I've been reading some stuff theorising that BioShock Infinite was not profitable. It sold 4 million copies (which isn't considered great for AAA any more, 5+ million is usually necessary now) and was many years late which means it probably needed to sell more way more than 5M in the end.

It's hard to say if 4 million was profitable or not because DLC sales aren't reported nor do we know the overall development costs. I don't think DLC sales makes a huge amount of difference, but it's also possible that they had cash reserves from BioShock 1 sales over the years too.

Malor wrote:

It felt like the final final version of the story didn't show up until real late in the dev cycle.

I recall there were some articles about very late changes to the way they handled religion in the story based on feedback/reactions Ken got from some of the Irrational staff. Like any game, there's probably a lot of stuff that was left on the cutting room floor.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

That's coming out as scheduled. It's apparently done already.

Yup, Steam DB history shows several updates to the 2K QA, Review, and Aspyr (aka the Mac port) branches and not much else over the last two weeks.

polypusher wrote:

Boston (and by extension New England) has gotten crushed over the past few years for game industry. Things like this cause the state to bleed talent (some attracted from out of state thanks to a healthy-looking industry a few years ago, ahem) and now there's not much left except Turbine and Harmonix.

And both Turbine and Harmonix have had layoffs within the last year

polypusher wrote:

Boston (and by extension New England) has gotten crushed over the past few years for game industry. Things like this cause the state to bleed talent (some attracted from out of state thanks to a healthy-looking industry a few years ago, ahem) and now there's not much left except Turbine and Harmonix.

The game industry is seriously tilting back West again, which is too bad, cuz it costs way too much to live in Seattle, SF and LA.

... as opposed to Boston :)?

ClockworkHouse wrote:
Demiurge wrote:

Worth pointing out that profitability hasn't been pointed at as the reason for this change.

I think people are looking for a narrative that doesn't involve a major studio getting shut down because the head wanted to make smaller projects instead.

The other time that's happened recently was the Two Tribes studio downsizing to the 3 founders after Toki Tori 2 bombed. I can't think of any other examples where the studio head lays off everyone instead of departing with an optional handful of staff to start their own studio.

This news makes me sad. I'm sure that whatever Ken works on next will be great, but Irrational was one of the only remaining AAA studios taking big development risks. I love seeing the products that come out of creativity backed by a big budget. I guess that leaves Naughty Dog, Valve, and maybe Rockstar. Any others?

Iridium884 wrote:
polypusher wrote:

Boston (and by extension New England) has gotten crushed over the past few years for game industry. Things like this cause the state to bleed talent (some attracted from out of state thanks to a healthy-looking industry a few years ago, ahem) and now there's not much left except Turbine and Harmonix.

The game industry is seriously tilting back West again, which is too bad, cuz it costs way too much to live in Seattle, SF and LA.

... as opposed to Boston :)?

Well, I bought a house about 20 mins from boston for around 150k a few years back. You'll not find the same within 20 minutes of any of those other cities without bars on the windows.

imbiginjapan wrote:

I know you need a thick skin to work in the gaming industry, but if I were outside that cadre of fifteen people, I might just wind up feeling a bit betrayed.

This.

Other thing to keep in mind too: 2K Marin was all but shutdown not long ago too. It's possible 2K is cleaning/consolidating house now that certain projects are winding down. 2K Czech also had some changes last month too. I'd be keeping an eye on Firaxis next.

Funny enough, a bunch of jobs seem to be moving to the new studio in Novato, CA (same city as the HQ) which was to be lead by Rod Furgueson who recently announced he was going to work at MS's Black Tusk Studios to re-unite with the Gears of War franchise.

Dyni wrote:

I guess that leaves Naughty Dog, Valve, and maybe Rockstar. Any others?

Valve hasn't really done much lately aside from iterating on proven brands. Their main innovation is happening in Steam, not the games. Not totally sure I'd say they're doing much risky these days as far as games go, and I like Valve as a company/developer.

Dyni wrote:

This news makes me sad. I'm sure that whatever Ken works on next will be great, but Irrational was one of the only remaining AAA studios taking big development risks. I love seeing the products that come out of creativity backed by a big budget. I guess that leaves Naughty Dog, Valve, and maybe Rockstar. Any others?

I think one could make a compelling case for Ubi.

Podunk wrote:
Dyni wrote:

This news makes me sad. I'm sure that whatever Ken works on next will be great, but Irrational was one of the only remaining AAA studios taking big development risks. I love seeing the products that come out of creativity backed by a big budget. I guess that leaves Naughty Dog, Valve, and maybe Rockstar. Any others?

I think one could make a compelling case for Ubi.

With the caveat that you're talking about Western companies; I think Capcom and Squeenix at least would also make the list.

I'm going to cherish my playthrough of Burial at Sea: Episode 2. I don't really need more Bioshock, but it's kind of sad that it's all over for certain now.

This'll be the last Bioshock game from Irrational, but if it's the last Bioshock game at all, I'll be shocked.

tuffalobuffalo wrote:

I'm going to cherish my playthrough of Burial at Sea: Episode 2. I don't really need more Bioshock, but it's kind of sad that it's all over for certain now.

Considering the ending of the main game, I can't help wondering if Ken had already planned on handing the development duties back to 2K for all future titles once they were done with Infinite.

I would definitely be hurt if I were one of the folks who lost their job. Still, as a gamer, I'm excited to see what is coming. Definitely a mixed bag of thoughts and emotions on this issue.

shoptroll wrote:
tuffalobuffalo wrote:

I'm going to cherish my playthrough of Burial at Sea: Episode 2. I don't really need more Bioshock, but it's kind of sad that it's all over for certain now.

Considering the ending of the main game, I can't help wondering if Ken had already planned on handing the development duties back to 2K for all future titles once they were done with Infinite.

That's true. I did enjoy Bioshock 2 as well, so I suppose there will be future games that I could potentially enjoy. Still I'll cherish the playthrough of Ep. 2.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

This'll be the last Bioshock game from Irrational, but if it's the last Bioshock game at all, I'll be shocked.

I think the initial bit from Ken Levine says that 2K's going to continue producing Bioshock games.

tuffalobuffalo wrote:

Still I'll cherish the playthrough of Ep. 2. :)

Same here. It'll be very interesting to play it knowing the studio will be essentially defunct once it releases.

Tanglebones wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:

This'll be the last Bioshock game from Irrational, but if it's the last Bioshock game at all, I'll be shocked.

I think the initial bit from Ken Levine says that 2K's going to continue producing Bioshock games.

He says they're turning over "the reins of our creation" to 2K, so that's not saying that 2K will be making more but certainly they can. But it's too well-known of a franchise to just drop.