The Conservative War On Women

article wrote:

Half the nation's pregnancies every year are unintended

wha..bu...an....I'm just gonna slowly back away from that quote now.

krev82 wrote:
article wrote:

Half the nation's pregnancies every year are unintended

wha..bu...an....I'm just gonna slowly back away from that quote now.

I'll be honest, I'm not really surprised. Hell, even my own parents have implied that I was an accident.

Xeknos wrote:
krev82 wrote:
article wrote:

Half the nation's pregnancies every year are unintended

wha..bu...an....I'm just gonna slowly back away from that quote now.

I'll be honest, I'm not really surprised. Hell, even my own parents have implied that I was an accident.

As someone whose parents have different surnames on my birth certificate and whose sister was also an accident, I can say this wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Xeknos wrote:
krev82 wrote:
article wrote:

Half the nation's pregnancies every year are unintended

wha..bu...an....I'm just gonna slowly back away from that quote now.

I'll be honest, I'm not really surprised. Hell, even my own parents have implied that I was an accident.

It's no secret in my family that I was a happy little accident.

The thing that puzzles me is how can a pregnancy from having unprotected sex be counted as an accident?

I know, I have heard the old "the condom broke" story. I don't really want to get into specifics as to why but let's say that due to the nature of condoms, the nature of heat of the moment and alcohol, I don't buy this at all.

fangblackbone wrote:

The thing that puzzles me is how can a pregnancy from having unprotected sex be counted as an accident?

How much have you read about sex ed in other states? American youth are amazingly ignorant when it comes to reproductive health.

As for the condom breaking... that has actually happened to me personally. Scary as sh*t. No alcohol involved. The failure rate is not 0. Multiply a very small number by the very large number of uses...

Also some couples use the pill or other forms of birth control that are not completely perfect.

Of course there is also the oops I was drunk and forgot the condom one. Like a drunk driving crash it is your fault but also in some ways an accident.

I have had a condom break on me as well.

fangblackbone wrote:

The thing that puzzles me is how can a pregnancy from having unprotected sex be counted as an accident?

I know, I have heard the old "the condom broke" story. I don't really want to get into specifics as to why but let's say that due to the nature of condoms, the nature of heat of the moment and alcohol, I don't buy this at all.

Yeah, considering the amount of utter BS out there, much of it being used "educationally", much could be considered unintended-some of the biggies; if you have sex during or right after menstruation, you cannot get pregnant, use of withdrawl with no other monitoring, not reading the directions on spermicides or prophylactics. Irregular use of contraceptive pills might also be a significant factor. A new one that needs looking into is improper utilization of Plan B.

If left to their own devices, how many people would use seat-belts properly?

Also, the pull-and-pray method is surprisingly effective. 70-96% effective, based on that article. It's enough to lure monogamous couples into complacency.

A lot of people don't know that antibiotics can make birth control pills completely ineffective. It's not exactly something they teach you.

Bonus_Eruptus wrote:

A lot of people don't know that antibiotics can make birth control pills completely ineffective. It's not exactly something they teach you.

Technically that's exactly the sort of thing both your Doctor and Pharmacist should tell you, but a lot probably forget.

Yonder wrote:
Bonus_Eruptus wrote:

A lot of people don't know that antibiotics can make birth control pills completely ineffective. It's not exactly something they teach you.

Technically that's exactly the sort of thing both your Doctor and Pharmacist should tell you, but a lot probably forget.

Or don't approve of birth control and thus don't want to talk about it.

Either way, in the case of me, my dad was under the impression he was infertile.

Mississippi Could Soon Jail Women for Stillbirths, Miscarriages

On March 14, 2009, 31 weeks into her pregnancy, Nina Buckhalter gave birth to a stillborn baby girl. She named the child Hayley Jade. Two months later, a grand jury in Lamar County, Mississippi, indicted Buckhalter for manslaughter, claiming that the then-29-year-old woman "did willfully, unlawfully, feloniously, kill Hayley Jade Buckhalter, a human being, by culpable negligence."
The district attorney argued that methamphetamine detected in Buckhalter's system caused Hayley Jade's death. The state Supreme Court, which heard oral arguments on the case on April 2, is expected to rule soon on whether the prosecution can move forward.

I think including this bit makes for a more robust discussion.

Tanglebones, leaving out what KingGorilla posted is flat out quote mining.

realityhack wrote:

Tanglebones, leaving out what KingGorilla posted is flat out quote mining.

Really? So if it were something other than drugs that caused the miscarriage, that would make it ok to tut-tut, but because it's something taboo, it's fine to jail the woman for manslaughter and set this precedent?

In fact, I find it incredibly insulting that you accuse me of 'quote mining' when I link the article, and quote the *first paragraph*.

I do not blame Tanglebones for a blog burying the lead.

Fetal homicide laws are a real sludge pit. The FUD from pro choice advocates in many states with them, is that it is meant to attack abortions.

In reality it gets into the muck of "a fetus is a person when the pregnant woman wants it to be."

Should it be a double homicide if a person T-bones a woman, while driving drunk, killing the mother and unborn child? Should it be if the impact lets the woman survive, but the trauma punctures or tears the placenta necessitating a surgical abortion to save the mother? This is California's law, that many states mirror.

Many states have laws that a woman who gives birth to an addicted baby can have her parental rights terminated, and the child becomes a ward of the state-then adopted. A law that goes one step further seems to be a natural outrcopping.

It's not quote mining. It's important to the story but the fact that the woman was on meth does not justify throwing her in jail for manslaughter. It might seem clear cut in a case like this because meth is illegal and so dangerous, but without a clear cut standard for what constitutes criminal negligence in this sort of case, you leave the door wide open for judges to impose their own morals on pregnant women to teach them a lesson.

So if meth is obviously negligence, what about alcohol? How much alcohol is a problem? If the woman had one glass of wine during her pregnancy, surely that's not enough to warrant these sorts of measures, right? How about prescription medications? Caffeine? Participating in potentially dangerous sports or hobbies? I was in a martial arts class with a pregnant woman, what if she were accidentally kicked in the stomach? And if there isn't a clear cut precedent for what constitutes negligence, there's certainly no guarantee that it will be applied fairly. Call me cynical but without oversight I'm thinking that teenagers, low income mothers and minorities are going to bear the brunt.

What is a woman supposed to do if she has a drug problem and becomes pregnant? In a state like Mississippi where they deliberately make it difficult or impossible to get an abortion? In many places, resources to help drug addicts are meager, stretched to their limits, or nonexistent.

Tanglebones wrote:
realityhack wrote:

Tanglebones, leaving out what KingGorilla posted is flat out quote mining.

Really? So if it were something other than drugs that caused the miscarriage, that would make it ok to tut-tut, but because it's something taboo, it's fine to jail the woman for manslaughter and set this precedent?

In fact, I find it incredibly insulting that you accuse me of 'quote mining' when I link the article, and quote the *first paragraph*.

You mean like a 8th month abortion which are often illegal?

The fact is that even though I disagree with her being charged, the story is not even remotely represented by the part you quoted. I would say that isn't your fault but I expect people to have read an article they are linking like that and having read it pointing out the drug angle would be imperative.

What you posted sounded like someone was being charged for a simple miscarriage, they are in fact looking at charges because a substance was taken that caused a miscarriage late term. Those are VERY different discussions.

--- On edit ---
Quote mining may be the wrong term here, as you are not trying to bolster an argument, but citation dose not prevent quote mining. The issue IMO is you posted a very misleading headline, yes from the article but highly misleading.

Demyx wrote:

What is a woman supposed to do if she has a drug problem and becomes pregnant? In a state like Mississippi where they deliberately make it difficult or impossible to get an abortion? In many places, resources to help drug addicts are meager, stretched to their limits, or nonexistent.

This is a great question. How should we as a society handle this.
And of course, if we had better treatment programs in the first place wouldn't it be a fairly minor extension?

I find it a good policy to not accuse anyone here, especially regarding their intent. It doesn't end well.

bnpederson wrote:

I find it a good policy to not accuse anyone here, especially regarding their intent. It doesn't end well.

True -- add on to the fact that people almost universally double down when they make a mistake vs accepting it and moving on and you have a recipe for disaster.

Seth wrote:
bnpederson wrote:

I find it a good policy to not accuse anyone here, especially regarding their intent. It doesn't end well.

True -- add on to the fact that people almost universally double down when they make a mistake vs accepting it and moving on and you have a recipe for disaster.

Plus, we have such a friendly and really intelligent group here that has been carefully nurtured by the powers that be (may their beards be ever full)

I wholeheartedly agree, Ego Man...is it weird that I feel more general respect, rapport, and willingness to discuss here in P&C than I do in EE?

Demyx wrote:

So if meth is obviously negligence, what about alcohol? How much alcohol is a problem? If the woman had one glass of wine during her pregnancy, surely that's not enough to warrant these sorts of measures, right? How about prescription medications? Caffeine? Participating in potentially dangerous sports or hobbies? I was in a martial arts class with a pregnant woman, what if she were accidentally kicked in the stomach?

And what if there is no easily scape-goatable cause? If the child is born with some birth defect, does the legal system cull through all the mother's behaviors until they find something they can claim is the "cause?"

This just seems like a horrible, horrible idea.

realityhack wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
realityhack wrote:

Tanglebones, leaving out what KingGorilla posted is flat out quote mining.

Really? So if it were something other than drugs that caused the miscarriage, that would make it ok to tut-tut, but because it's something taboo, it's fine to jail the woman for manslaughter and set this precedent?

In fact, I find it incredibly insulting that you accuse me of 'quote mining' when I link the article, and quote the *first paragraph*.

You mean like a 8th month abortion which are often illegal?

The fact is that even though I disagree with her being charged, the story is not even remotely represented by the part you quoted. I would say that isn't your fault but I expect people to have read an article they are linking like that and having read it pointing out the drug angle would be imperative.

What you posted sounded like someone was being charged for a simple miscarriage, they are in fact looking at charges because a substance was taken that caused a miscarriage late term. Those are VERY different discussions.

--- On edit ---
Quote mining may be the wrong term here, as you are not trying to bolster an argument, but citation dose not prevent quote mining. The issue IMO is you posted a very misleading headline, yes from the article but highly misleading.

I think the words you're looking for here are "I'm sorry for accusing you of something you did not do."

Xeknos wrote:

I think the words you're looking for here are "I'm sorry for accusing you of something you did not do."

Sort of? A highly misleading title was posted.
OTOH I do not know if it was intentional.
My apologies for over-reacting. I should not have done so.

Was that to Tangle or realityhack?

Seth wrote:

Was that to Tangle or realityhack?

Reality. Sorry, I should have specified.

As has been mentioned above, I'm not sure if the meth use is really relevant to the discussion, as it establishes a fairly dangerous precedent to prosecute someone already in a great deal of anguish over losing a child.

I think it was to me.
I over-reacted, I made an unfounded assumption regarding motive, and I acted rather meanly on that assumption.
So I was wrong and I apologize.

I do think relevant information that heavily influences the context of a quote should be included but I was wrong to assume anything but pure honest mistake.

Tanglebones, I apologize. Sorry it took me so long to do so.