The Conservative War On Women

The Conformist wrote:
Demyx wrote:

And somehow there's never any discussion on how we might prevent rape.

Funny, that.

EDIT: Well, no discussion on how to prevent rape that doesn't hinge entirely on women never showing skin or going outside.

I honestly don't think there's an answer to that. Even IF you take the proper steps to try and prevent rape there's always going to be some pig psychopath man who will still do so. You can't predict someone just snapping and doing something horrible. It's the same with some crazy man opening fire on a school or church, there's always those people out there who just want to hurt others because it feels right to them. I think if you want to be realistic just be safe, travel in groups, be with friends, raise your kids with morals etc. This wont abolish rape, but it is sure as hell a good start to be safe.

Only one of your solutions actually addresses the rapist and not the victim. Your last suggestion is fair and something I do hope gets better over time, but I'm not really convinced it will.

As for the rest, I don't think you realize how many cases of rape are not perpetrated by psychopaths and are in fact by what you would likely call normal people.

SixteenBlue wrote:
The Conformist wrote:
Demyx wrote:

And somehow there's never any discussion on how we might prevent rape.

Funny, that.

EDIT: Well, no discussion on how to prevent rape that doesn't hinge entirely on women never showing skin or going outside.

I honestly don't think there's an answer to that. Even IF you take the proper steps to try and prevent rape there's always going to be some pig psychopath man who will still do so. You can't predict someone just snapping and doing something horrible. It's the same with some crazy man opening fire on a school or church, there's always those people out there who just want to hurt others because it feels right to them. I think if you want to be realistic just be safe, travel in groups, be with friends, raise your kids with morals etc. This wont abolish rape, but it is sure as hell a good start to be safe.

Only one of your solutions actually addresses the rapist and not the victim. Your last suggestion is fair and something I do hope gets better over time, but I'm not really convinced it will.

As for the rest, I don't think you realize how many cases of rape are not perpetrated by psychopaths and are in fact by what you would likely call normal people.

Most cases of rape are with friends or family members, so ironically enough traveling alone, or surrounded by strangers, may be a better way to avoid rape.

Stengah wrote:
The Conformist wrote:
Demyx wrote:

And somehow there's never any discussion on how we might prevent rape.

Funny, that.

EDIT: Well, no discussion on how to prevent rape that doesn't hinge entirely on women never showing skin or going outside.

I honestly don't think there's an answer to that. Even IF you take the proper steps to try and prevent rape there's always going to be some pig psychopath man who will still do so. You can't predict someone just snapping and doing something horrible. It's the same with some crazy man opening fire on a school or church, there's always those people out there who just want to hurt others because it feels right to them. I think if you want to be realistic just be safe, travel in groups, be with friends, raise your kids with morals etc. This wont abolish rape, but it is sure as hell a good start to be safe.

This is the "there's no perfect solution so obviously nothing can be done" problem that a lot of people use to prevent having to seriously think about a subject they don't like. It's true that there is probably not a 100% perfect solution to prevent rape, but that doesn't mean that we should throw our hands in the air and do nothing. Your offered solutions are mostly what Demyx's edit predicted: telling the potential victims how to act to not get raped (and even then it's not a sure-thing) instead of trying to change the potential perpetrators behavior. I'd imagine including a segment on consent in sex-ed/ health classes would help at least a little (particularly for date rape). Breaking the media's/society's habit of blaming the victim would be another place to start. There's no need to find something the victim did wrong or didn't do that could have prevented it, because it's the rapist's fault, not the victim's. What the victim was wearing, or where they were isn't important, why the rapist felt their desire for control/sex was more important than the victim's autonomy is.

I'm in no way trying to lessen the importance of the situation or just dismissing it as "Welp, can't do much about it so oh well". I'm simply saying that nothing is 100% when it comes to situations like these. I agree we must ALWAYS look into ways to prevent this from happening, it must be discussed and evaluated. I've noticed a trend on this board, people tend to talk in circles, over analyze everything and get nowhere. You can't just dismiss taking the proper safety measures that I stated, or point at someone when they state the obvious and say "See it's that kind of attitude that will get us nowhere", you're always going to have to protect yourself when dealing with people you may not know. I don't like the idea that I can't just go running around my neighborhood at 1:00am and not possibly get mugged, but that's the world we live in, and I don't go and do it. And if for some reason I had to, I would take someone with me to help reduce the chances of me being harmed. Now I can sit and analyze what makes a mugger tick, and how we can prevent and teach our children on how to not become a horrible person, but I'm certainly not going drop my defenses and assume just because we've taken up ways to teach this that all is safe and good. You can think, teach, and work on ways to improve life for yourself and others and still stay within the realm of realism.

I really don't know what to say, here. *sigh*

The Conformist wrote:

I don't like the idea that I can't just go running around my neighborhood at 1:00am and not possibly get mugged, but that's the world we live in, and I don't go and do it.

This is exactly "Welp, can't do much about it so oh well". You've accepted it as an inevitability that your neighborhood is unsafe at 1 in the morning, and your solution is how to live with it instead of how to make things better. No one's saying that you should go out an act like everything's fine now, because you're right that it's not, but there needs to be a better goal than just surviving.

By telling potential rape (or mugging) victims how to act to avoid it, you're placing the burden of avoiding it on the wrong people. Teaching people how to avoid being raped is a good part of a solution, but more important is teaching people not to rape in the first place. It leads to blaming victims for wearing sexy clothes ("they were asking for it by dressing like that"), doing something wrong ("'being safe' is all it takes to not be raped, since they were raped, they must not have 'been safe' so it must be their fault"), or somehow wanting it ("I can think of several things I could have done if I didn't want to be raped, but they didn't do any of them").

Stengah wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

I don't like the idea that I can't just go running around my neighborhood at 1:00am and not possibly get mugged, but that's the world we live in, and I don't go and do it.

This is exactly "Welp, can't do much about it so oh well". You've accepted it as an inevitability that your neighborhood is unsafe at 1 in the morning, and your solution is how to live with it instead of how to make things better. No one's saying that you should go out an act like everything's fine now, because you're right that it's not, but there needs to be a better goal than just surviving.

By telling potential rape (or mugging) victims how to act to avoid it, you're placing the burden of avoiding it on the wrong people. Teaching people how to avoid being raped is a good part of a solution, but more important is teaching people not to rape in the first place. It leads to blaming victims for wearing sexy clothes ("they were asking for it by dressing like that"), doing something wrong ("'being safe' is all it takes to not be raped, since they were raped, they must not have 'been safe' so it must be their fault"), or somehow wanting it ("I can think of several things I could have done if I didn't want to be raped, but they didn't do any of them").

Taking the political route and just picking out a sentence in my entire statement to make a point doesn't seem fair. If you take my post in it's entirety you'll see that I'm all for coming up with solutions on how to fix the problem. I'm simply implying that you have to still be safe and use your common sense when dealing with untrustworthy people in the meantime.

Statistically, the most untrustworthy people are not the ones your suggestions target.

There's no magic bullet to stop all rape forever but that doesn't mean there's nothing that can be done, and I definitely think there are things we can do to impact the rapist.

Not blaming the victim is an excellent place to start. We need to make it absolutely clear as a society that there is no circumstance where a woman "deserves" rape or "has it coming". Unfortunately this attitude still exists in a lot of places and it absolutely empowers rapists.

We could also make sure that everyone in sex ed classes is educated on what exactly constitutes a rape. There's unfortunately a lot of people who think that it's only rape if she fights back. There's a lot of people who don't recognize the legitimacy of marital rape. There's a disturbing number of people who think that taking advantage of a woman too drunk to realize what's happening is not rape.

We could also make it easier to prosecute rapes. A lot of rapists walk free even when the women file police charges, and a lot of rapes are never reported for various reasons. One is actual and perceived hostility. Going to the police to report a rape means having to explain, often to a powerful man, what happened to you, which is potentially frightening and humiliating. I've read stories about how women go to report rapes and get lovely comments from cops like "Well, why were you drinking so much?" and "You were alone with him in his room, what'd you think would happen?" and "He's got a good reputation, it's going to be your word against his, are you sure you want to go through with this?"

How about making sure that there are safe places for women to report rape where they will not be judged?

We can also help women in other ways than simply making them fear. Your suggestions of not walking alone at night, etc. are all the same ones I heard growing up. They're not bad suggestions, but as has been pointed out repeatedly, don't address the full reality of rape. I've read that up to 80-90% of rapes are done by people known to the victim, and yet nearly all "rape prevention" suggestions focus on either getting abducted off the street or getting drugged at a bar or party by an unscrupulous stranger. Never being alone with a man is not a practical suggestion either.

One thing women should learn are the warning signs for a rapist. This is especially important for girls that grow up in broken or abusive homes where they may not have learned what constitutes a healthy relationship. They need to know warning signs like: being excessively controlling ; dismissing opinions that are important to the woman ; treating women like personal property ; shaming or guilting women when they have done nothing wrong ; being excessively bitter over women in their life. Part of this involves making it clear to women that they deserve a man who values their opinions and treats them as an equal.

This is different from advice such as "don't go out alone" or "don't wear revealing clothes". It isn't about scaring women or shaming them from dressing and acting how they want. It's about making healthy choices when it comes to relationships.

Another thing I can think of is treating raped women with more dignity and reducing the amount of shame they feel. This goes beyond just not blaming them, as I talked about above. This means that all women are armed with the knowledge of what to do if they are raped, what their rights are, etc. Women need to know what a rape kit is, what a morning-after pill is, where to get them, what their rights are if they decide to file a police report, and how to find non-judgmental counseling and therapy. And if women don't have access to rape kits and counseling, that needs to change.

It may be counter-intuitive to try to prevent rape by dealing with what happens after a rape, but it sends an important message. It shows that women who are raped can take control of their own life, have lots of support and resources, and don't need to live in fear and shame. Rapists often tell women things like "No one will help you" and "If you tell anyone, your reputation will be ruined." By making it clear that this isn't the case, we take power away from rapists.

We could probably think of even more ways to combat rape than these, but we're not going to come up with them if we start with "Well, rape is inevitable, guess ladies better not walk alone!"

It's okay. "Don't be alone with your dad", "don't be alone with your older brother", "don't be alone with your boyfriend", and "don't have a drink while talking shop at the conference hotel" are all totally legit advice as well.

...

Then again, maybe we need to change the way things work so that dads, older brothers, boyfriends, uncles, teachers, random guys you meet at a party, random people you meet at professional conferences, etc. etc. etc. can't rape people and get away with it. And just maybe, the first step to doing that is making sure that the people who suggest "just avoid unsafe behavior" realize that there [em]is no such thing as safe behavior[/em].

I'm serious, here.

When's the last time [em]you, personally, The Conformist[/em] thought "Oh, here's a nice professional in my field and we're having a nice chat. [em]I'd better make sure that I stay safe so that they don't drug and rape me.[/em]"?

Because that's what you're advocating that women should do. (And, in fact, [em]they should[/em]. That's the thing that's tremendously depressing. They shouldn't [em]have[/em] to, because they should be able to assume that most people aren't going to sexually assault them, and that if someone does the law will teach them a lesson they'd rather have missed.)

Sure, it's good for everybody to do what they need to do to stay safe based on where they happen to be. But the problem here is not "we can't look inside peoples heads and see if they're one of the 0.0001% that is crazy in the way that makes them rapists, so we can't protect against that." The problem is that when [em]one in six[/em] women in the U.S. has been sexually assaulted, there's a lot more than 0.0001% of crazies out there raping people.

That's the thing that has to stop. Should anyone ignore their safety? No. But unsurprisingly (or perhaps surprisingly to you, based on what you've been saying) women are actually pretty careful, having been taught from a young age just how dangerous the world is.

Fortunately, we can also solve the problem by making sure that we actually teach people that rape isn't okay, and actually punish those who break the law. We've been doing kind of a sh*tty job at it so far, so there's a [em]lot[/em] of room for improvement here.

When conservatives decide that life is sacred, and also decide that sexual activity outside marriage is the woman's/slut's fault, they paint themselves into a misogynist corner with no real way out.

FIXED.

I am sorry but I am getting really frustrated with people who place artificial restrictions on themselves or join social pecking order clubs to brow beat themselves. They can just always feel better about themselves by judging outsiders or those that have freed themselves from such barbaric practices.

Yes, I just called refraining from sex before marriage barbaric. Why? This is not about the ideal at all. In theory, the practice should be applied uniformly between the sexes. But in reality, it is the most ideal example of a double standard.

The Conformist wrote:
Stengah wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

I don't like the idea that I can't just go running around my neighborhood at 1:00am and not possibly get mugged, but that's the world we live in, and I don't go and do it.

This is exactly "Welp, can't do much about it so oh well". You've accepted it as an inevitability that your neighborhood is unsafe at 1 in the morning, and your solution is how to live with it instead of how to make things better. No one's saying that you should go out an act like everything's fine now, because you're right that it's not, but there needs to be a better goal than just surviving.

By telling potential rape (or mugging) victims how to act to avoid it, you're placing the burden of avoiding it on the wrong people. Teaching people how to avoid being raped is a good part of a solution, but more important is teaching people not to rape in the first place. It leads to blaming victims for wearing sexy clothes ("they were asking for it by dressing like that"), doing something wrong ("'being safe' is all it takes to not be raped, since they were raped, they must not have 'been safe' so it must be their fault"), or somehow wanting it ("I can think of several things I could have done if I didn't want to be raped, but they didn't do any of them").

Taking the political route and just picking out a sentence in my entire statement to make a point doesn't seem fair. If you take my post in it's entirety you'll see that I'm all for coming up with solutions on how to fix the problem. I'm simply implying that you have to still be safe and use your common sense when dealing with untrustworthy people in the meantime.

I don't see how calling attention to you doing what you just said you weren't doing is "the political route" or somehow unfair. I think it's also pretty clear that I did take your entire post into account, I just addressed the rest of it in my second paragraph (though Demyx and Hypatian did a better job of making the points I was trying to make).

Demyx wrote:

We could also make it easier to prosecute rapes. A lot of rapists walk free even when the women file police charges, and a lot of rapes are never reported for various reasons. One is actual and perceived hostility. Going to the police to report a rape means having to explain, often to a powerful man, what happened to you, which is potentially frightening and humiliating. I've read stories about how women go to report rapes and get lovely comments from cops like "Well, why were you drinking so much?" and "You were alone with him in his room, what'd you think would happen?" and "He's got a good reputation, it's going to be your word against his, are you sure you want to go through with this?"

I believe you are spot on with what you have said and I have no disagreements, however this quote got me thinking. And I believe when dealing with certain situations such as party's, social drinking events, questions on rape or being taken advantage of are very important. Example:

About seven years ago back in my college days I had a friend who gathered quite a few people together at a house downtown and decided to throw a party. There was tons of booze and liquor and many many stupid drunk college kids. I noticed he had been hanging out with a blonde for most of the night and they had been kissing, hanging all over one another and eventually disappeared for the night. I didn't think much of it at the time. A few weeks later this girl came out and said that he had taken advantage of her and pretty much spread this around throughout our group of friends and it eventually got around the school. Not only was he approached by authorities on this, but he had to deal with the reputation of basically date raping someone.

I had discussed it with him numerous times and he adamantly insists that they were both kissing, she drug him off into a room, and it was consentual. He didn't force himself on her, he didn't hit her, and he didn't slip anything in her drink. Now I believe him when he said he didn't do it, he was always a trustworthy guy, but I don't really know what happened that night, and someone is lying. Those questions you stated above are obviously not good questions to ask, but In my friends case I believe it's important you find out all the facts before you just trust the person making the accusations.

If they were both drunk, there might have been some terrible misunderstanding. It's not always the case that someone's being a bald-faced liar in those cases, that's why they try to teach college kids to avoid the sexing when drunk... consent becomes more of an issue.

And sure, of course people are going to continue to drink and f*ck, but the stakes are a whole lot higher for a lot of reasons, that being one of them.

This is exactly why drunk college students should always video tape themselves having sex, so that they can demonstrate consent!

Yonder wrote:

This is exactly why drunk college students should always video tape themselves having sex, so that they can demonstrate consent!

Rush Limbaugh demands it for any college that receives federal funding.

The Conformist wrote:

Those questions you stated above are obviously not good questions to ask, but In my friends case I believe it's important you find out all the facts before you just trust the person making the accusations.

Never in that quote did I say that you auto-trust the person making the accusation. All I said was that they should be able to report the incident without being judged. Judgment should take place in the court, not when you make a police report -- the cops' job is to get the stories from the victim and the accused, no judgment required.

If no one else is going to point out "Victim's lying!" is move number 1 in the rapist's defense portfolio, as well as society's move number 1 when it comes to discrediting the accuser of a beloved accused ("Mike Tyson, a barely socialized, ear-eating brute who makes his living beating people with his fists, a rapist? No way, she's lying!"), then I will. Rape seems to be the only crime where such thinking comes up, which plays no small role in the low incidence of reporting and convicting Demyx and others pointed out earlier. Hell, it's been the cornerstone of the Sandusky defense. I'd be curious to see some real stats on the number of actual false accusations that happen annually, rather than just anecdotal evidence that it happens because someone totally knew this one guy once. I wager, it's not often.

War on Women, Waged in Postcards: Memes From the Suffragist Era

It's astonishing how long this has been going on, and how in many ways, we're still having the same argument, a hundred years later.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

If no one else is going to point out "Victim's lying!" is move number 1 in the rapist's defense portfolio, as well as society's move number 1 when it comes to discrediting the accuser of a beloved accused ("Mike Tyson, a barely socialized, ear-eating brute who makes his living beating people with his fists, a rapist? No way, she's lying!"), then I will. Rape seems to be the only crime where such thinking comes up, which plays no small role in the low incidence of reporting and convicting Demyx and others pointed out earlier. Hell, it's been the cornerstone of the Sandusky defense. I'd be curious to see some real stats on the number of actual false accusations that happen annually, rather than just anecdotal evidence that it happens because someone totally knew this one guy once. I wager, it's not often.

I'm thinking the same thing.

According to a recent study by the American Prosecutors Research Institute, false rape allegations account for two to eight percent of all reported rapes.

http://www.awolau.org/2010/04/05/myt...

Emphasis mine. Estimates claim that anywhere between 50 and 75% of rapes go unreported.

Anecdotally... back in the rape culture thread, we did an informal poll amongst a few of us on how many of us had reported vs. unreported assaults. I remember it was similar to that, if not higher.

I'm leaving aside for the moment how depressing it is that almost all of our little cross-section of women had data points for that.

clover wrote:

I'm leaving aside for the moment how depressing it is that almost all of our little cross-section of women had data points for that.

And some of us guys who unfortunately had direct knowledge of cases that got swept under the carpet.

Malor wrote:

War on Women, Waged in Postcards: Memes From the Suffragist Era

It's astonishing how long this has been going on, and how in many ways, we're still having the same argument, a hundred years later.

IMAGE(http://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/mummy.jpeg)

I like this one: it's what Conservatives railing against women's rights look like to me.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/Gm3sa.jpg)

Petticoat rule. Weird.

I can't wait for petticoat rule.

I also like the point about how married women can "only" double or annul their husbands' votes. Uh, yeah, I guess those are the options, what's your point?

Those wives could break and vote third party. Bedlam, my friend. Bedlam!

If no one else will speak out in favor of our nation's vital Hysteria Treatment Industry, I will. Do you have any idea how many jobs laudanum refining creates?

I wonder if, at the time, anyone noticed all of those were good arguments that only women should vote and men should be disallowed the vote.

Bloo Driver wrote:

I wonder if, at the time, anyone noticed all of those were good arguments that only women should vote and men should be disallowed the vote.

I saw that episode of Star Trek, it was weird.