Wasteland 2 Catch-All: GOTY edition coming soon

Yeah - it's not that he's saying that developers don't introduce bugs into the code, but rather, they have no control over the release schedule or the QA process.

Don't take it literally. What he means is why games end up shipping so buggy most of the time.

A few quotes that have stuck in my mind over the years, seem applicable here

It's easy to cry "bug" when the truth is that you've got a complex system and sometimes it takes a while to get all the components to co-exist peacefully.
If debugging is the process of removing bugs, then programming must be the process of putting them in.

I've worked in software QA but not in a game dev publisher/developer context, and just for the record: if a bug ends up in a piece of software, it's not necessarily because QA didn't find it.

A lot of time is spent in triage meetings deciding whether bugs are
1) something so critical that it must be fixed before launch, delaying launch date/missing deadline to do so.
2) something as major as (1), but in a non-critical part of the application, in which case, cutting out that feature/piece of functionality is considered an option if it is deemed to be less work/time consuming than fixing the bug (the feature to be added in post release via patch.)
3) something that doesn't need to be fixed for launch, but needs to be addressed post release via hotfix/patch
4) so marginal a case (or the impact is minimal and/or there is a simple workaround) that it need not be addressed until the next major version of the product.

So anything besides (1) is going to be something that you could potentially see when using that piece of software, at least before the first patch/update hits. And let me tell you, a lot of stuff gets classified as NOT (1).

As a programmer, I must confirm that bugs are the fault of QA people.

You're all wrong. Bugs are actual insects that crawl into the vacuum tubes to muck up the works!

Bugs are the fault of developers. Bugs that are not found are the fault of QA. Bugs that are found and not fixed are the fault of managers.

LeapingGnome wrote:

Bugs are the fault of developers. Bugs that are not found are the fault of QA. Bugs that are found and not fixed are the fault of managers.

The key statement that lends that quote context is "if a product goes out buggy". He's not saying that developers aren't at fault for coding in bugs in the first place. He's saying that the developer often receives the most blame, even in crappy situations like Obsidian's where the majority of the blame rests with the publisher.

It's worth reading the whole interview, which is also linked in the original post. Brian Fargo also speaks about developers that do their own publishing/QA, and reap the rewards of that.

LeapingGnome wrote:

Bugs are the fault of developers. Bugs that are not found are the fault of QA. Bugs that are found and not fixed are the fault of managers.

Bugs exist in a quantum state of both existing and not existing until QA people observe the application, collapsing the waveform. Therefore, QED, ipso facto, all QA's fault.

Schrödinger's Bugs!

[size=2]CONCORDANTLY[/size]

On another thought: this game is probably worth backing for the simple reason that everyone involved is excited about it. They all seem to desperately want to do this game, and they're thrilled to death to have the money to be able to eat while they do.

I submit that, with devs that motivated, we have an excellent chance of getting something truly extraordinary in exchange.

From a game design point of view I was fairly pleased with Fallout NV.

You know, I keep hearing that, and that Fallout had been returned to the 'proper owners' for NV, but I liked Fallout 3 much better. A lot of that was probably the bugs, but, well, hmm. Maybe it's just that I didn't really like anyone in NV, except for Lily. Lily was cool. But Veronica, the one I was 'supposed' to like, was just fan service. Blech. And I strongly, strongly disliked Mr. House. I didn't like working for him. I didn't want anything to do with him. But I disliked and distrusted Yes Man even more.

I think I might have aligned myself with the NCR, but they're painted as a bunch of fascist thugs in that timeframe. So there weren't any goals I could get behind, there were hardly any characters I liked, and none of the various plotlines played out in any way I found particularly satisfying. Assassinating Caesar felt right, but then it didn't even change the ensuing plot.(!)

The 'real' devs for that game did a much poorer job, in my view, than the devs on regular FO3. There were tons of good characters in FO3. Even the bad guys were interesting -- Alistair Tenpenny was memorable as hell. And, while the ending was poorly received (and justifiably so... if you had Fawkes with you, it was flatly stupid), the overall feeling was still much closer to the one I got from the original FO1 and 2. And the whole Liberty Prime sequence was freaking amazing.... like, the best canned scenario in a game ever.

In NV's defense, the Big Empty was outstanding, probably the best DLC I've played, but that wasn't enough to carry the main game, in my view. And man, it was brutally difficult if you went too soon, unlike the scaling in most of the DLC packages.

So, in my view, Bethesda did a much better job than Obsidian, and I really don't get why everyone thinks differently. Did the self-sacrificial ending piss off everyone that much, or is there something else I'm missing?

Malor wrote:

I think I might have aligned myself with the NCR, but they're painted as a bunch of fascist thugs in that timeframe. So there weren't any goals I could get behind, there were hardly any characters I liked, and none of the various plotlines played out in any way I found particularly satisfying.

You realize you could have gone completely independent, screwing over both sides, right?

To me, New Vegas was a far better game and far more Fallout than Fallout 3.

I don't work in software development but to me it looks like QA is done by another group and bugs have to be identified by them because the developers probably don't see the bugs.

Sometimes you need a distance to really see what's right in front of you.

That and the fact that if the publishers puts very little ressources in QA and allows the game to actually ship with bugs, I don't see why the developer would be to blame.

I donated earlier today before this was announced (or I didn't notice it). Having Obsidian on board is what got me to donate. Plus I figure 15$ now is a discount from what the final product will cost.

Great news (for anyone with taste)! The Kickstarter is at $2,060,944 plus the $40,610 from Paypal donations means that the $2.1 million to get Obsidian on board for Wasteland 2 has officially been reached!

It's been a while since this thread was active, if you haven't been following the Kickstarter closely there have been some updates in the last week:

-Backers at $250 or above will have their game box signed by Chris Avellone and some other guys like Brian Fargo.
-There is a new $55 tier that is purely digital for international orders, in order to avoid shipping and tax costs.
-New milestones: at $2.5 million inXile will hire more designers and level scripters to create more content for the game, create more art for the game (NPC portraits and items), increase the music budget, and "remember little Bobby from WL1... well he was left for dead and he is pissed."
-At $3 million inXile might release a mod tool-set. Fargo says that they could afford to have people work on that without compromising anything from the main game at that level of support.

Vector wrote:

I donated earlier today before this was announced (or I didn't notice it). Having Obsidian on board is what got me to donate. Plus I figure 15$ now is a discount from what the final product will cost.

I wonder eh? It's true that 15$ seems really cheap for the kind of game they're offering ...

May I suggest increasing your pledge to the current average donation per backer?

... Which is currently at 49$

interstate78 wrote:

... Which is currently at 49$

Which is noticeably more than the Double Fine Average of $38.29, interestingly enough.

Probably because every fan of the game is at least 40 years old, they've been saving up for this!

interstate78 wrote:
Vector wrote:

I donated earlier today before this was announced (or I didn't notice it). Having Obsidian on board is what got me to donate. Plus I figure 15$ now is a discount from what the final product will cost.

I wonder eh? It's true that 15$ seems really cheap for the kind of game they're offering ...

May I suggest increasing your pledge to the current average donation per backer?

... Which is currently at 49$

Monetary reasons and my personal views of kickstarter and game purchases will keep my pledge low. I was hesitant to give anything to anyone. I didn't even give to the Double Fine cause. Obsidian truly was the tipping point for me.

Pledge increased!!!

Quintin_Stone wrote:
Malor wrote:

I think I might have aligned myself with the NCR, but they're painted as a bunch of fascist thugs in that timeframe. So there weren't any goals I could get behind, there were hardly any characters I liked, and none of the various plotlines played out in any way I found particularly satisfying.

You realize you could have gone completely independent, screwing over both sides, right?

To me, New Vegas was a far better game and far more Fallout than Fallout 3.

I kind of disagree because New Vegas did somethings right but Fallout 3 felt like a better game to me just from the atmosphere and world compared to New Vegas, I felt the things in the world and the side stuff was better done in Fallout 3 than New Vegas, both are good games but I prefer Fallout 3.

I guess that's why when I saw this news about them helping out Wasteland 2, my reaction is meh, it might be a great thing but I am not a Obsidian fan and I don't have any faith in them. That being said I still am supporting the game and thinking of upping my pledge to the 50 dollar for the physical box.

First official concept art released, also another update, but it basically just says "tell your friends." That inXile isn't going to hire PR or marketing people because that money would be better used to make the game, and so Fargo is counting on you to get the word out instead.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/ywuLW.jpg)

Tannhauser wrote:

First official concept art released, also another update, but it basically just says "tell your friends." That inXile isn't going to hire PR or marketing people because that money would be better used to make the game, and so Fargo is counting on you to get the word out instead.

Errrr. Ahhh. Ummm. Okay.

I guess that's reasonable since they don't really have to worry about selling enough to turn a profit or anything. Kickstarter kind of rearranges the typical business flow. All the marketing is done as part of the Kickstarter.

Tannhauser wrote:

First official concept art released, also another update, but it basically just says "tell your friends." That inXile isn't going to hire PR or marketing people because that money would be better used to make the game, and so Fargo is counting on you to get the word out instead.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/ywuLW.jpg)

That artwork looks sick. Can't wait.

Nice motley collection of weapons there. An M4, AK, looks another another M4 with M203 grenade launcher, Uzi, probably a double-barrel shotgun in the back.

Showed the Kickstarter video to my dad (who got me into gaming and still regularly plays Diablo 2)- I'm still not sure why I'm not contributing to this. If good, it'll be darned good.

Something Awful Gets an Idea

Yup. A goon (AxeManiac) got the idea to put 2500 of his dollars in, and solicit donations to offset the cost. They're grabbing one of the remaining $2500 slots in order to get a Something Awful collectible artifact and an NPC, item, weapon, or location into the game.

Nice idea... (floating it - 6 days to go for the Kickstarter)

I gave in and gave enough for the big box edition, probably the last box for my collection and kinda fitting since Wasteland was one of the first games I every purchased on my own.