Wasteland 2 Catch-All: GOTY edition coming soon

The state of gaming may be amazing, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement and it DOESN'T mean that the big publishers are catering to every person's tastes.

Publishers rode the AAA bubble with dollar signs in their eyes and after financial fumbles they became more risk averse. This is natural and there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't mean that it sits well with everyone though, and the kickstarters demonstrate that the markets are still there, even if they're not big enough to justify AAA budgets.

TheGameguru wrote:

Shh.. don't look now but those same publishers have PUBLISHED some of the most memorable "games" in the history of games. Unlike the 80's where I had a far more limited pool of "gaming" than I do now..

FTFY

Do we credit the filmmaker/director and writers or the producers for making a movie?

I guess the only credit a publisher has in my eye is to throw money at the right projects and so that's why I'm willing to blame them for not financing, thus killing, genres that I adore.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

The state of gaming may be amazing, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement and it DOESN'T mean that the big publishers are catering to every person's tastes.

Publishers rode the AAA bubble with dollar signs in their eyes and after financial fumbles they became more risk averse. This is natural and there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't mean that it sits well with everyone though, and the kickstarters demonstrate that the markets are still there, even if they're not big enough to justify AAA budgets.

Thank you for putting this better than I can.

TheGameguru, please stop putting words in my mouth. Your post couldn't be farther from what I'm saying and it's rather insulting how you repeatedly make accusations with what seems like zero interest in reading and understanding of other people's posts. It's really tiring. It's not entitlement to see gaps in the market, see proof of market interest (Kickstarter) and to draw possible conclusions from these. If you were actually interested in engaging with other people we could discuss that but it feels more like you just want to insult anyone that has a negative opinion.

interstate78 wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

Shh.. don't look now but those same publishers have PUBLISHED some of the most memorable "games" in the history of games. Unlike the 80's where I had a far more limited pool of "gaming" than I do now..

Do we credit the filmmaker or the producers with movies?

I guess the only credit a publisher has in my eye is to throw money at the right projects and so that's why I'm willing to blame them for not financing, thus killing, genres that I adore.

Someone had to pay for it... you can't blame Publishers for following the most profitable path.. But then you are choosing to ignore all the other avenues of gaming outside of big AAA publisher backed titles.

Here's what I want: I want developers to have control over their own products. I want developers with proven track records to be able to make the game they think is best. Clearly these Kickstarter projects are proving that is not the case in the modern industry. If it was, Double Fine wouldn't need to use Kickstarter. They're already a proven successful company.

If you want to call that entitlement and say I'm miserable for that thought, then so be it.

So I threw in my money for this, and I am really excited about what should wind up coming out of it. In particular, I hope they actually make money, in actual profits from sales, after the game comes out. To me, that is the really interesting part of this equation.

SixteenBlue wrote:

Here's what I want: I want developers to have control over their own products. I want developers with proven track records to be able to make the game they think is best. Clearly these Kickstarter projects are proving that is not the case in the modern industry. If it was, Double Fine wouldn't need to use Kickstarter. They're already a proven successful company.

If you want to call that entitlement and say I'm miserable for that thought, then so be it.

Maybe.. we still need to see.. what Kickstarter has shown is that the community can fund a project they believe in... clearly Doublefine has been funded in the past to create games they had pitched as possibly making money (for themselves and the publisher) more often than not DoubleFine was wrong.. and people didnt like it and it didnt make money. Will this game from a Kickstarter funded budget make money? we shall see.. or will it simply pay expenses for another 18 or so months for DoubleFine to keep developing?

so really you are angry at gamers since they didnt buy enough DoubleFine products.. or its all the fault of those pesky meddling Publishers that while giving DoubleFine money somehow made them produce a game that they didnt want to produce in the first place.

And I would argue that Blizzard as well as others are clearly making the games they WANT to produce.. as are a slew of other developers.. they just arent for some reason on your own little personal radar.

Why would I be angry that someone didn't buy a child themed JRPG because that didn't lead to them making a point and click adventure? That doesn't make sense. If I was bummed they couldn't make Costume Quest 2 then I would understand your point.

You're conflating the ability to make the games you want and not wanting to make the games you make. I could want to make a point and click adventure and not be allowed but that doesn't mean I also don't want to make Costume Quest. No one is being forced into making games they don't want.

I have no idea what Blizzard does or doesn't want to make and I'm not going to pretend I do. I do know Valve gets to make what they want and that is awesome. Valve is also making a killing. Also awesome. Believe it or not you don't actually know what's on my "tiny little radar" so once again, stop putting words in my mouth.

My point is DoubleFine knows how to make good games. Let them make them.

SixteenBlue wrote:

My point is DoubleFine knows how to make good games. Let them make them.

But do they know how to make profitable games? That's the question the publisher asks, and that's completely fair. They are in the business of making money, and if a great game can make a lot of money then so be it. If not, they are not likely to make the investment. Sometime they'll take the chance on an unknown if they see the potential for it to take off. People like to vilify publishers but they are just trying to make more money. Sometimes they make poor decisions to achieve that goal; sometimes they learn from those mistakes, sometimes they don't. You can't be upset at them for trying to increase profits though. That's what they exist to do.

So we have things like Kickstarter and Steam instead, which gives developers a way to take that risk on themselves when they can't find a publisher to take on that risk for them. It's a good model, but one that is still figuring itself out. We're very much in a growing phase, just like the music, movie and even book industries have gone through.

It'll be very interesting to see what kinds of additional sales and profits Double Fine and inXile drive after the release of these games. Maybe they'll be able to get enough money to fund their next project. More than likely they'll get some money but not enough, which will buy them time to figure out how to fund their next project. Then it's back to pitching to publishers, firing up Kickstarter campaigns or taking out loans and hoping for the best. Just like it's always been.

Dreaded Gazebo wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:

My point is DoubleFine knows how to make good games. Let them make them.

But do they know how to make profitable games? That's the question the publisher asks, and that's completely fair. They are in the business of making money, and if a great game can make a lot of money then so be it. If not, they are not likely to make the investment. Sometime they'll take the chance on an unknown if they see the potential for it to take off. People like to vilify publishers but they are just trying to make more money. Sometimes they make poor decisions to achieve that goal; sometimes they learn from those mistakes, sometimes they don't. You can't be upset at them for trying to increase profits though. That's what they exist to do.

So we have things like Kickstarter and Steam instead, which gives developers a way to take that risk on themselves when they can't find a publisher to take on that risk for them. It's a good model, but one that is still figuring itself out. We're very much in a growing phase, just like the music, movie and even book industries have gone through.

It'll be very interesting to see what kinds of additional sales and profits Double Fine and inXile drive after the release of these games. Maybe they'll be able to get enough money to fund their next project. More than likely they'll get some money but not enough, which will buy them time to figure out how to fund their next project. Then it's back to pitching to publishers, firing up Kickstarter campaigns or taking out loans and hoping for the best. Just like it's always been.

I definitely don't mean to vilify publishers. I also agree with your first question about profitability, but I think these Kickstarter drives, to a degree, are proof of profitability. Sure some people way over donated and that throws the numbers off somewhat, but it shows the amount of demand out there already and that's just off the developer's name.

Can we please get back to the topic of Wasteland 2?

so... I hear Wasteland 2 has a Kickstarter. Anyone donate?

This is a good conversation, guys. I'd definitely read it somewhere else. It's as easy as saying, "I've responded and taken the topic here."

Wasteland 2 has 5k to go before it's multiplatform. How cool is that?!

tboon wrote:

so... I hear Wasteland 2 has a Kickstarter. Anyone donate?

Yes! more than I probably should have!

Greg wrote:

Can we please get back to the topic of Wasteland 2?

tboon wrote:

so... I hear Wasteland 2 has a Kickstarter. Anyone donate?

This is the Wasteland 2 kickstarter thread? I thought it was the "Bitching about the current state of video games" thread. Who knew?

Seriously though, Quintin, it's practically gotten to the point where this thread needs to be locked and recreated. FFS.

(on topic)

I see that they've added a PayPal option, I guess for anyone who does not have or wants to use Amazon as the payment method. Looks like the same rewards apply.

I will argue that they set out to make a game with 300,000$ and they amassed 2,3M, netting them a cool 1,5M after paying Kickstarter and Amazon

Their decision to use ALL the money and make it the best game possible only means they're not in it for the profits because otherwise, they still could spend only 300,000$ on it and we'd be none the wiser.

So I think their Kickstarter has proven that they can make money with this genre, given that they respect a certain budget.

That's probably why we'll never see Psychonauts 2 because Tim often said he'd need over 10-20M just to make the game and it's highly doubtful that they'd sell enough copies for it to be an interesting gamble for any publisher, not even if the game could be profitable when all is said and done because the outlook is that it will not be profitable enough.

They're not in the business of investing 20M to make one million in return.

You see? That's where publishers get in the way of creativity. Whereas Double Fine may invest the whole Kickstarter fund in the game, a publisher probably would have said ''the hell with this, I'm keeping the 1,5M and here's your 300,000$ budget."

$1.5 million reached!

Keep in mind that the $1.5 million isn't the total of all the pledges either. There is just under $12,000 pledged from RPG Codex/NMA that doesn't show up yet on Kickstarter, and another $2,000 pledged through Paypal.

Hooray!

Kicking it Forward is apparently A Thing(TM) now. I'm pretty curious to see how it turns out. This might be big. Or might not, but certainly feels warm and fuzzy.

*required bitching part begin* Oh, by the way, PC gaming is dead. Like, totally. *RBP end*

I wish I was in a position to throw stupid amounts of money at some of these projects, but at the moment my entertainment budget is nil. Luckily for me I have a giant pile of shame

wanderingtaoist wrote:

Kicking it Forward is apparently A Thing(TM) now. I'm pretty curious to see how it turns out. This might be big. Or might not, but certainly feels warm and fuzzy.

*required bitching part begin* Oh, by the way, PC gaming is dead. Like, totally. *RBP end*

Yeah, I wasn't sold on Wasteland 2 (having never played the original)... but when i heard about this on Dubious Quality I immediately pledged for the game. These sorts of ideas and people are worth supporting.

I held off on donating for Wasteland. I'm not entirely sold on the kickstarter development model, and I'm not sure that even with a baller IP like Wasteland that this game will be good. I'd be happy to buy it after it comes out though.

Although I still am looking around for a way to play the original. Also, where the heck can I find those paragraphs?

Squee9 wrote:

Also, where the heck can I find those paragraphs?

Why, on teh interwebz of course, some of them survived the nuclear apocalypse. I'm sure there's PDF somewhere as well, my manual is the old thick book style that came with Interplay Ultimate RPG Archives (over 500 pages! A great read).

They just announced that if they hit $2.1M, inXile will be involving Obsidian Entertainment and Chris Avellone as co-developers of the project. GIVE THEM ALL YOUR MONEY!

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

They just announced that if they hit $2.1M, inXile will be involving Obsidian Entertainment and Chris Avellone as co-developers of the project. GIVE THEM ALL YOUR MONEY!

So then it will be guaranteed to be late and full of bugs?

I love Obsidian's work, but ...

garion333 wrote:

So then it will be guaranteed to be late and full of bugs?

Just saw the announcement at RPS, and this was my first thought as well.

MeatMan wrote:
garion333 wrote:

So then it will be guaranteed to be late and full of bugs?

Just saw the announcement at RPS, and this was my first thought as well.

Not that it excuses Obsidian entirely (it really doesn't) but there's a lot of history behind those buggy releases. They've been jerked around by a lot of publishers, several of whom like Atari and Bethesda are known for releasing bug-fests themselves. Given that there is no publisher involved this time, I suspect the time will be taken to ensure the game ships in a proper state.

You know, it'll be very interesting to see how they manage the money and the bug fixing in these games, because presumably they won't be able to dip into the well twice for the same game. With a publisher, they can go back and say "hey, this is taking longer than we thought, we need more money" and probably get it, but I don't think that'll fly with Kickstarter.

There'll be nobody leaning on them to screw things up, but there'll also be no net to catch them.