Obesity Catch-All

The same social problem where people choose to be sh*tty to other people? That makes sense.

Mex giving sh*t to fat, buy obviously disabled people is what some people seem to do best. The crap Zane came in here with I get every single day. Often just that bluntly.

I made a tshirt that reads, "I'm fat, not deaf," on the back in big letters for days when i have to go to places i know people tend to be more rude. Places like the grocery store when I'm shopping to feed 30 teenagers for a Youth Group event. I always get a bunch of sh*t from people in the checkout line about their idea as to why i bought 10 pounds of hamburger and enough pasta to feed the Red Army.

I was shopping for a Christmas present for my monster-in-law at a department store a month or so ago and a couple followed me all through the Misses section, commenting to each other loudly how i must have some awful amount of body dismorphia to be shopping in this section.

I have an even harder time with it because I AM doing the stuff they say, and I'm still like this. If I wasn't doing those things I would be bedridden or dead. But they can't even conceive that it's possible.

That's why I posted that link to that study in my response to him. This is utterly toxic.

Paleocon wrote:

And though I agree that all those things are certainly helpful in shaping a public policy response to the problem, I also still think that it is entirely possible to make lifestyle changes that can make an enormous difference on an individual level. We are not helpless. We are not victims to our environment and/or genetics.

I hope my post did not imply that we were helpless. I really only wanted to point out a few factors that we *might* be able to work on at a societal level along side individual efforts.
As I hope I also conveyed personal habits, and damaged matabalisms may be socially created long before the person is really at the point of making real personal decisions anyway so those societal factors may have some follow on personal effect (did I make any sense?).

clover wrote:

The same social problem where people choose to be sh*tty to other people? That makes sense.

I feel like I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but apparently, I need to stress this again. This thread is not about the validity of fat shaming, and it is definitely not my intention to condone fat shaming in any way, shape or form. It truly chagrins me to see that that might be the impression that I might be giving. To reprise Mex's words, I don't agree with fat shaming and I will most certainly not fight to see that kind of behavior continue. I know why we're having this discussion (see previous pages), but I can't help but feel frustrated because we shouldn't even have to have it.

Stating medical facts is not fat shaming in my mind. And forgive me for the poor analogy, but at this late hour, I'm coming up a bit short, but it's like telling someone that maybe they shouldn't be driving so fast in a residential area because they might hit a tree or whatever (now maybe the brakes are out, that's another story).

My original intent when I created this thread was to examine the circumstances that might accelerate a process, conditions that aren't favorable to healthy living. When the candy aisle is twice as large as the produce sections, you know we're doing something wrong. And I find posts like DSGamer's absolutely fascinating, because he actually speaks about other factors we need to take into account.

momgamer wrote:

I always get a bunch of sh*t from people in the checkout line about their idea as to why i bought 10 pounds of hamburger and enough pasta to feed the Red Army.

...seriously?!

momgamer wrote:

I was shopping for a Christmas present for my monster-in-law at a department store a month or so ago and a couple followed me all through the Misses section, commenting to each other loudly how i must have some awful amount of body dismorphia to be shopping in this section.

Good lord, wtf is wrong with people.

Eleima wrote:

My original intent when I created this thread was to examine the circumstances that might accelerate a process, conditions that aren't favorable to healthy living. When the candy aisle is twice as large as the produce sections, you know we're doing something wrong. And I find posts like DSGamer's absolutely fascinating, because he actually speaks about other factors we need to take into account.

+ Everything.

Farscry wrote:
momgamer wrote:

I always get a bunch of sh*t from people in the checkout line about their idea as to why i bought 10 pounds of hamburger and enough pasta to feed the Red Army.

...seriously?!

momgamer wrote:

I was shopping for a Christmas present for my monster-in-law at a department store a month or so ago and a couple followed me all through the Misses section, commenting to each other loudly how i must have some awful amount of body dismorphia to be shopping in this section.

Good lord, wtf is wrong with people. :evil:

Yup. I've had random people make comments about my body. Classmates. Co-workers at various jobs too. Years of being called fat, ugly (because fat), nasty (because fat)... It's disgusting. We end up feeling like sh*t for a long time.

And even though I lost a ton of weight and am now a somewhat ideal body type, I still feel fat. Some days I'm just really self-conscious; don't want to go out there and hear people make nasty comments about my body or assumptions about what I eat.

Some people really suck.

Someone at my place of employment left a Weight Watchers brochure on my desk. It went into the trash.

Several weeks later, I had to grab some items from one of our conference rooms where WW was holding a meeting. The people were weighing in and one of the participants said, "Zach, you should step on the scale." "Why?" I asked. "Are you saying I am fat?"

Not a single person in that room wanted to have the confrontation and they all just looked at the ground or at the wall. I grabbed the items I needed and left, making a quick detour to HR to let them know what had occurred.

The WW meeting that day was the last WW meeting allowed on our campus.

Phoenix Rev wrote:

Someone at my place of employment left a Weight Watchers brochure on my desk. It went into the trash.

Several weeks later, I had to grab some items from one of our conference rooms where WW was holding a meeting. The people were weighing in and one of the participants said, "Zach, you should step on the scale." "Why?" I asked. "Are you saying I am fat?"

Not a single person in that room wanted to have the confrontation and they all just looked at the ground or at the wall. I grabbed the items I needed and left, making a quick detour to HR to let them know what had occurred.

The WW meeting that day was the last WW meeting allowed on our campus.

Yeah, people can suck like that. Wrap it up in concern trolling, and it's somehow acceptable. Imagine if someone had left a Chick tract about the evils of homosexuality, or a coupon for Rogaine. Would those be acceptable?

(Full disclosure: a co-worker did once leave me a tract about how Harry Potter was evil.)

Eleima wrote:

But that doesn't mean that I'm going to start going out and dragging patients into a consult, that just means I need to be ready to help those that walk through the door.

Quoted from page six.
I understand this is a sensitive topic and that people in the past have been a bunch of asshats. But if we can't have a debate in good faith about what I outlined in my previous post, then u regretfully don't see this going anywhere.

Great clip, Breander. Very à propos and I love IT Crowd.

Eleima wrote:
Mex wrote:

Anyway, I've only read the last few pages of this thread and I think this fat shaming thing is awful, and it goes deeper than simple obesity, it's about people not letting other people live like they want. I suspect the fat shaming, and the rape culture and the trans issues and all that are all symptoms of the same social problem. What happened to "I don't agree with you but I'll defend your right to say it" etc?

Wow. Seems to me you're throwing very, very different issues in the same bin. I can't even begin to imagine what parallels you could possibly be drawing, it just completely eludes me. Care to elaborate on that, because I just don't see it. How could you possibly compare being obese with being transgendered? What on earth does rape culture have to do with this??

The way I see it, it's all discrimination, in different ways. Everyone feels harassed, persecuted, needing attention and help to their particular problem. Anger builds up, they lash out, issues get deeper, self-delusion makes it worse, repeat, etc. Telling someone they're "X" (Fat, queer, deserving of rape) can be sensitive because it involves their body, and also needs a certain self-hate to project that into others. Even if these people mean well (The usual "We're concerned about your health"), is it appropriate or inappropriate? "I just want you to be normal and part of the tribe". As long as it doesn't hurt you, why does it matter if someone else is gay? And even if they do verbally or emotionally hurt you, you need a little strength of your own to know when to shrug it off, and go about your day.

Phoenix, I'm guessing it hurt you and that's why you complained, but it confuses me that I thought you were proud of your body and being fat and didn't give a f*ck about it. Wasn't it kind of a dick move to get their meetings cancelled? I thought you'd just shrug it off. That's just based on a post you did in this thread, correct me where I'm wrong.

Personally I get very insecure about my body, so I can't even believe someone would just tell someone they don't know "you're fat, go on a diet!" in public, at a line at the supermarket or stuff like that. I doubt they're perfect themselves. From friends, or family, I'd take it seriously, but only once did I get told that I was getting a bit fat.

But as I said in another thread, everyone is judged by their body all the time. f*ck, competitive bodybuilders make a living by having their bodies judged, if you've ever known one of those guys, how they live, I can't even imagine how they feel when they lose, it's the ultimate judging. That girl, Kang, the amount of horrible comments in her Facebook from "Fat activists", man, they're just as bad. Worse, because they should understand more about how it feels.

edit: Dee, how do you know it's concern trolling, and not just real concern? What's the difference, or how can you know this?

Mex wrote:

edit: Dee, how do you know it's concern trolling, and not just real concern? What's the difference, or how can you know this?

You have to figure it out on a case-by-case basis. The concern troll will make snide comments about what you should or shouldn't be eating. The friend with actual concern will actually try to do something constructive, like invite you for a walk. That's just one example.

Mex wrote:

Phoenix, I'm guessing it hurt you and that's why you complained, but it confuses me that I thought you were proud of your body and being fat and didn't give a f*ck about it. Wasn't it kind of a dick move to get their meetings cancelled? I thought you'd just shrug it off. That's just based on a post you did in this thread, correct me where I'm wrong.

I wasn't hurt as much as I was offended that a group that had been granted space to use in a corporate setting was making the judgement that I needed to step on a scale to know that I am fat. Everyone in the company knew that the WW meeting was in Conference Room A at 2 PM on Thursdays. They were even allowed to advertise on our intranet and post signs letting people know when the meetings were. They simply did not need to proselytize to anyone passing through the conference room. We are all adults (supposedly) at our workplace and if I had wanted to step on the scale or join the meeting, I could have done so.

No one else gets to evangelize to the masses where I work for anything except for internal matters like our annual charity drive or the company picnic. In fact, in my tenure at my current job, two people have been terminated on the spot for trying to make converts to their religion.

Sauce for the goose...

Phoenix Rev wrote:

Sauce for the goose...

I don't understand this phrase, sorry... Sauce is good? I like sauce n_n

Anyway, I was just wondering if they weren't trying to be nice to you by inviting you to their group, but only you know if they were just being dicks. Personally it was cool that you complained, but it wasn't cool that they cancelled the whole thing, I don't think. I imagine some people there enjoyed it.

Or maybe they really were all assholes, who knows?

ZaneRockfist wrote:

No, calories are basically the end-all, be-all here. It is the laws of physics at work. There's a 1:1 ratio between mass and energy. If you put more energy into a system than it uses, then it will have more energy. If you take more energy out of a system than it uses, then it will have less. It cannot work any other way. That's impossible and you are trying to tell me that somehow human biology overrides nature.

This is just wrong man. I mean, scientifically it's correct, but empirically, I know people have wildly varying metabolisms, and uncontrollable, unknown factors. As I mentioned, try living on 1500 calories of a variety of vegetables vs 1500 calories of potato chips. You mention stress and lack of sleep, but those are only some of the most common reasons why a diet that "should" be working isn't. There's a sh*tload of other factors, and doctors haven't figured them out all. The gluten craze is only the latest indication of how little we really know about nutrition and losing weight. Even the different bacteria in your body work differently than other people's. Diseases, etc. Man, you mention having a hormonal imbalance, do you know how much everything you eats affects hormones?

Diets that focus on Calories are the worst, they are only an example of what damage the crappy media did to modern society.

*Posted while eating a huge hamburguer+fries, delicious *

BTW Eleima are you a doctor?

Mex wrote:
ZaneRockfist wrote:

No, calories are basically the end-all, be-all here. It is the laws of physics at work. There's a 1:1 ratio between mass and energy. If you put more energy into a system than it uses, then it will have more energy. If you take more energy out of a system than it uses, then it will have less. It cannot work any other way. That's impossible and you are trying to tell me that somehow human biology overrides nature.

This is just wrong man. I mean, scientifically it's correct, but empirically, I know people have wildly varying metabolisms, and uncontrollable, unknown factors.

Actually, that is bout as scientifically correct as saying gravity makes things fall down. It is correct, at the most basic of levels. However, that is what we teach people who really don't need to learn the whole truth.

Mex wrote:
Phoenix Rev wrote:

Sauce for the goose...

I don't understand this phrase, sorry... Sauce is good? I like sauce n_n

Ha! My apologies, my friend. It is a old adage that goes "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" which means that if everything needs to be equal. In this case, if someone was proselytizing for one thing and got reprimanded, then others who proselytize get reprimanded as well.

I like sauce, too. :o)

Mex wrote:

Anyway, I was just wondering if they weren't trying to be nice to you by inviting you to their group, but only you know if they were just being dicks. Personally it was cool that you complained, but it wasn't cool that they cancelled the whole thing, I don't think. I imagine some people there enjoyed it.

Or maybe they really were all assholes, who knows?

Let's just say that the way it came across was not that of genuine concern.

mudbunny wrote:
Mex wrote:
ZaneRockfist wrote:

No, calories are basically the end-all, be-all here. It is the laws of physics at work. There's a 1:1 ratio between mass and energy. If you put more energy into a system than it uses, then it will have more energy. If you take more energy out of a system than it uses, then it will have less. It cannot work any other way. That's impossible and you are trying to tell me that somehow human biology overrides nature.

This is just wrong man. I mean, scientifically it's correct, but empirically, I know people have wildly varying metabolisms, and uncontrollable, unknown factors.

Actually, that is bout as scientifically correct as saying gravity makes things fall down. It is correct, at the most basic of levels. However, that is what we teach people who really don't need to learn the whole truth.

It's similar to saying "Gravity makes things fall down!

...so roller coasters are impossible!"

It's a very simplistic view of reality derived from a simple law of physics that's being applied to a biological system. Lots of very wrong assumptions are being made.

Say what you will about fit people "winning the genetic lottery," but when Blake Lively attributes her figure to chocolate...

Blake Lively wrote:

" do nothing! I'm lucky to have a very active lifestyle, I'm always running around everywhere... So I don't need to hire a coach or watch what I eat...

Yeah.

Where'd you get that? She's talking about an active lifestyle, not that chocolate gave her a good figure. If you're walking around all day, some chocolate won't make you suddenly fat. If she's naturally thin, it probably helps.

When asked how she keeps her figure, she answered that she doesn't have to work out, and she has to have chocolate twice a day.

I'm just saying that the genetic lottery does exist. Some people seem to gain weight by just looking at a piece of chocolate.

I'm a little skeptical of single factor answers to any question, especially when it comes to biological systems. Even when the disease causative factor is just one agent, it is likely to cause a constellation of symptoms, and may have resulted from a number of contributory agents.

Blake Lively actually doesn't look that different from the majority of my colleagues in residency training. We can't all have won the genetic lottery, and we stuffed our faces with fast food and junk.

What we all had in common was a lifestyle that required us to walk and run 10-20 km every single day, sometimes pushing gurneys or loaded with 15 pounds of equipment, up and down 7 very long flights of stairs. It was a surprisingly physical job. Even so, some of us tended stouter or thinner. This was possible because walking was incorporated into the job without our thinking. It would be very difficult for me to replicate that much physical activity today.

http://davidduke.com/sweden-becomes-...

Sweden reversing the 50 year trend in dietary advice leading to increasing carbohydrate intakes and increasing obesity levels.

Interesting! But, um, David Duke is a famous white supremacist and former KKK leader. I couldn't find a super-repuatable source about Sweden, but at least this is a little better than ol' David:

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/sweden-becomes-first-western-nation...

sometimesdee wrote:

When asked how she keeps her figure, she answered that she doesn't have to work out, and she has to have chocolate twice a day.

I'm just saying that the genetic lottery does exist. Some people seem to gain weight by just looking at a piece of chocolate.

Blake Lively is also 26 years old. Let's check back in with her in 20 or 30 years.

Also, continuing with the genetic lottery topic (FYI the technical term is nutritional genomics), here is an interesting podcast about biomarkers and how wildly different people's metabolisms can be:

http://www.nyas.org/Publications/Med...

LarryC wrote:

I'm a little skeptical of single factor answers to any question, especially when it comes to biological systems. Even when the disease causative factor is just one agent, it is likely to cause a constellation of symptoms, and may have resulted from a number of contributory agents.

Blake Lively actually doesn't look that different from the majority of my colleagues in residency training. We can't all have won the genetic lottery, and we stuffed our faces with fast food and junk.

What we all had in common was a lifestyle that required us to walk and run 10-20 km every single day, sometimes pushing gurneys or loaded with 15 pounds of equipment, up and down 7 very long flights of stairs. It was a surprisingly physical job. Even so, some of us tended stouter or thinner. This was possible because walking was incorporated into the job without our thinking. It would be very difficult for me to replicate that much physical activity today.

Precisely.

Though it may be true that a statistically insignificant number of people are able to "eat anything and not get fat", their existence does not at all account for the billions of people that are able to maintain a healthy weight through a combination of circumstance and/or lifestyle. As you stated above, much of that circumstance and lifestyle may be more problematic in maintaining with an office job, but lots of folks have shown it is not impossible.

Moreover, pointing fingers at that statistically insignificant group as the reason for the existence of all people who are of a healthy weight is just a pretty disingenuous exercise in responsibility avoidance.

Paleocon wrote:

Moreover, pointing fingers at that statistically insignificant group as the reason for the existence of all people who are of a healthy weight is just a pretty disingenuous exercise in responsibility avoidance.

Who was doing that? The real lottery isn't the only way to wealth, and the genetic lottery isn't the only way to a healthy figure. However, the odds are stacked against you if you're not a lottery winner, and you have to do a hell of a lot more work to get similar results. It's not impossible, it just takes way more effort. Whether someone can actually make the effort depends on a crap ton of factors.

Just as it's ridiculous for a lottery winner to say, "I don't understand why everyone's not a millionaire like me," it's ridiculous to say, "I don't understand why people don't just stop stuffing their faces and get as skinny as me."

Again I have a bit of a problem with "healthy weight" - though I'm fully aware that weight is a pretty good indicator of overall health. Personally I'm of the opinion that if you cannot run the entirety of a 5k, you're not healthy. Many, many skinny people cannot run a 5k.

Also, I don't believe the odds are stacked against you. While there is certainly a genetic lottery out there, the choice of being fat or skinny is ours. I'm currently fat because I've chosen not to jump on the treadmill and I've chosen to not break my sugar addiction. When I choose to do those things, I will become less fat. Odds have nothing to do with that choice.

And I do think willpower is important. I was utterly addicted to pop. I would drink a 2 liter of coke in a day and I did that probably 3-4 times a week. I'd wake up with headaches if I didn't drink pop. I began exercising and realized that all this work I was putting in was pointless if I didn't change my eating habits. I've not had a sip of pop in 3.5 years now. It's been hard as hell. I still literally dream about drinking pop. It is an addiction just like any other. But, luckily, once you start a good habit it's difficult to get off of it. Now I just need to become addicted to exercise :).

The fact that there are fat people who run 5ks and skinny people who cannot shows that the odds are stacked against some people. Certainly, you choose whether to do the work necessary to be thinner, but some people have to do more work than others. One person may choose to work out 30 minutes a day and eat a 2,000 calorie diet to stay in shape, while someone else may have to work out 90 minutes a day and eat a 1,500 calorie diet to get the same results. Sure, the second person may choose to only work out 30 minutes a day, and that's why he's heavier than he'd like. It doesn't mean that he's, as someone said, feeding himself like a pig at a trough.

cheeba wrote:

Again I have a bit of a problem with "healthy weight" - though I'm fully aware that weight is a pretty good indicator of overall health. Personally I'm of the opinion that if you cannot run the entirety of a 5k, you're not healthy. Many, many skinny people cannot run a 5k.

I did my first 5k last month (though I'd call it more of a jog than a run for much of it; I was only on an 11:30 minute per mile pace), but I'm definitely still overweight and not healthy enough yet. I'm getting closer though.

Why are you targeting a 5k as the health indicator? Why not a mile? Why not a half-marathon? Why not X number of minutes at a running pace at Y heartrate?