Dealing with Divorce Catch-All

I actually already did. I have a friend (we went to middle-high school together, but are three year apart, our parents were tight) who became a lawyer and although she's into acquisitions, she's still familiar with the law and the inner workings (or at the very least more knowledgeable than I am). Her advice is to go for the "divorce by mutual consent" route which is quicker and less painful for everyone. This was a few weeks back and I was still very, very upset, and bent on taking him to the cleaners and finding every possible "fault" to my advantage. But that would just draw out the process and help no one.
As for money, a lot of lawyers here go by "package" deals, so basically, it's a fixed sum for the whole procedure. A lot of lawyers and courthouses are backed up here, so this is going to take a while, whatever happens...

Thinking of the kiddos, if you can shift your current routines toward what they are likely to be after you separate, that will help too. I know that's sort of happening already because of your commute situation but even little details will help (like going to a certain bakery and getting a certain thing on Sunday mornings, stuff you can continue afterward).

My divorce was way more like Demos', paperwork-wise, but it always is icky. Sorry you have to be doing this

Glad to hear you have already got a lawyer and costs are set.
Hopefully it can stay mostly between the lawyers and you can just have a
set schedule with the children and all. Hopefully focus is soon back on having
a good live with them

Sending positive thoughts your way Eleima, unfortunately I have no practical advice or anything, just well wishes. I'm glad you're keeping your own self-worth in mind too, don't let anyone else drag you down!

Eleima wrote:

I actually already did. I have a friend (we went to middle-high school together, but are three year apart, our parents were tight) who became a lawyer and although she's into acquisitions, she's still familiar with the law and the inner workings (or at the very least more knowledgeable than I am). Her advice is to go for the "divorce by mutual consent" route which is quicker and less painful for everyone. This was a few weeks back and I was still very, very upset, and bent on taking him to the cleaners and finding every possible "fault" to my advantage. But that would just draw out the process and help no one.
As for money, a lot of lawyers here go by "package" deals, so basically, it's a fixed sum for the whole procedure. A lot of lawyers and courthouses are backed up here, so this is going to take a while, whatever happens...

What are your separation requirements?

In many places in the US there's a 6 month to 1 year and sometimes 2 yr (!!) separation requirement. Meaning you'd have to live apart for 6 months+.

Eleima,

I'm not in the US let alone your state, but I would think your courts will have free information online about divorce and separation. Start looking there first.

I practice in family law. Try to find a practitioner who is genuinely interested in helping you reach a fair resolution quickly rather than dragging it out. I come across the opposite sorts all too frequently with so called "family law specialists".

If your financial affairs and parenting arrangements are not complex, chances are that it's better to thrash out the key clauses with your husband first, then one of you approaches a lawyer to draw up the terms of settlement in formal language for approval by the court. Then the other spouse can find a lawyer to get advice on the fairness of the formal terms.

Also, if you need the support, find a good counsellor, your family doctor should have some recommendations, and there are child psychologists that can help children manage the separation process.

Eleima isn't in the US either; she's in France.

Bfgp wrote:

Eleima,

I'm not in the US let alone your state, but I would think your courts will have free information online about divorce and separation. Start looking there first.

I practice in family law. Try to find a practitioner who is genuinely interested in helping you reach a fair resolution quickly rather than dragging it out. I come across the opposite sorts all too frequently with so called "family law specialists".

If your financial affairs and parenting arrangements are not complex, chances are that it's better to thrash out the key clauses with your husband first, then one of you approaches a lawyer to draw up the terms of settlement in formal language for approval by the court. Then the other spouse can find a lawyer to get advice on the fairness of the formal terms.

Also, if you need the support, find a good counsellor, your family doctor should have some recommendations, and there are child psychologists that can help children manage the separation process.

This is basically what my ex-wife and I did. We discussed the split in the 2 days I was packing up and basically separated out everything there except for cash. She went to a lawyer, got the divorce decree written up, I took it to my mom's lawyer and confirmed with her that everything was what we had said when we discussed it together, and signed it and sent it off, then waited for our court day. That said, no kids, so it was much simpler.

tanstaafl wrote:

Eleima isn't in the US either; she's in France.

Hmm civil law countries probably have major differences in family law too.

But the overall approach shouldn't differ - that is, conflict resolution in a cheap and efficient manner. With my clients, I use the example of spending $1000 in legal fees to fight over a lawnmower worth $50. Best to leave emotions to the side when it comes to the property settlement.

Thank you all very much for your kind words. I hadn't checked back earlier, because I think it's important I give this thread my full attention when I post, and not just post hastily from my phone.

@Clover: For the moment, it's kinda complicated, because I only get to see them on weekends. I think that we'll be headed to a "your week, my week" schedule, where we alternate, and that won't be possible until May at the earliest. I have to find a new job after this contract is up, and I just have no idea where that'll take us.

@Sparhawk: I've spoken to a lawyer friend, heh, but I haven't actually found a lawyer yet. This won't be an easy task with my weekly commute, but I feel I can't put this off any longer, the situation is just that bad.

Farscry, even if it's "just" well wishes and positive thoughts, I truly, deeply appreciate it. The situation is difficult enough that it's nice to know that there are some people out there who actually wish me well and not ill.

@Garion: I'm not exactly sure, and it hinges on a number of factors. There are a number of procedures here in France: separation, divorce by mutual consent, fault divorce, etc. So basically, there are a number of questions we need to ask ourselves: do we want to stay married but separate? Do we both agree we want to divorce? Do we agree on the conditions of that divorce? At this point, I'm hoping for a divorce by mutual consent in which we both agree to a divorce and on its conditions. I do not have the faintest inkling of what my future ex-husband thinks as he basically isn't on speaking terms with me. But there are no separation requirement if we decide to go the divorce route. But the procedure will take a while.

@Bfgp: Thanks, I've been looking a lot of this online, which is why I know a bit about the different types of procedures. Unfortunately, the courts and lawyers are backed up here, so whatever happens, it's going to drag out a bit, no matter how efficient the lawyer is. And yup, definitely going with counseling. Between the divorce and the other stuff that hit the fan, I definitely need it (now if they'd only return my phone calls so I could actually set up an appointment...). I definitely don't want to fight over a stupid lawnmower or anything. The only stuff I really want to keep are my books (which he won't want, since he doesn't read English anywhere near as fluent as I), my computer, and my Thermomix kitchen mixer/blender/cooker my mom got me for my 30th. I don't see him objecting over that. The delicate issue will be the kids, obvious, but all I want is a peaceful resolution and a swift separation. I really wish things were different, but if that's the way it's going to be, then I just want to get it over with.

Looking into lawyers today, not sure how to pick one other than ouija'ing him or her out of the yellow pages...

Looking into lawyers today, not sure how to pick one other than ouija'ing him or her out of the yellow pages...

Ask your attorney friend for a suggestion, or at least if there's anyone you should avoid hiring. Even if she doesn't know any family law people in your city, she might know a good generalist who you can see for 30 minutes to get some recommendations.

Demosthenes wrote:
Bfgp wrote:

If your financial affairs and parenting arrangements are not complex, chances are that it's better to thrash out the key clauses with your husband first, then one of you approaches a lawyer to draw up the terms of settlement in formal language for approval by the court. Then the other spouse can find a lawyer to get advice on the fairness of the formal terms.

This is basically what my ex-wife and I did. We discussed the split in the 2 days I was packing up and basically separated out everything there except for cash. She went to a lawyer, got the divorce decree written up, I took it to my mom's lawyer and confirmed with her that everything was what we had said when we discussed it together, and signed it and sent it off, then waited for our court day. That said, no kids, so it was much simpler.

Yep, it was similar for us as well. As much as regional laws vary, I think the more you can agree on the framework of things between the two of you and just tell the lawyers, "This is what we want," the smoother it goes. My ex and I had separated for a year before we filed and, by that point, our legal paperwork (Indiana) pretty much just said, "What they're already doing." Only, you know, over about 50 pages.

Eleima, I pretty much said this before, but it's worth repeating. I know it's brutal right now. It will be for awhile. But you keep getting up every day and living your life how it makes the most sense for you and your kids and you'll come out the other side of it. And speaking of kids, how you address a range of things with them related to how their lives are changing will obviously have a huge impact on how they handle it themselves. Parenting is so personal I don't want to offer unsolicited input on that topic, but if you have concerns and want to hear other experiences please do say so.

Eleima, I just wish you the best as you tackle something so tough. we're thinking of you.

First of all, I just want to say my heart goes out to Eliema and everyone else going through divorce. And secondly, I'm hoping to come here and ask for some advice. After feeling we've made a lot of progress my wife in counseling and I had the worst fight in years last night. I will own up to getting angry at the Super Bowl loss, but things quickly escalated on both sides. We are both suffering from crippling depression. Having been in a combat zone I'm always willing to stick it out for the greater good. My attitude has been yeah life sucks but we are giving our kid a stable home which seems like the important thing. At this point though I wonder if we are doing anyone any favors or just setting ourselves up for a lifetime of suck.

jdzappa wrote:

First of all, I just want to say my heart goes out to Eliema and everyone else going through divorce. And secondly, I'm hoping to come here and ask for some advice. After feeling we've made a lot of progress my wife in counseling and I had the worst fight in years last night. I will own up to getting angry at the Super Bowl loss, but things quickly escalated on both sides. We are both suffering from crippling depression. Having been in a combat zone I'm always willing to stick it out for the greater good. My attitude has been yeah life sucks but we are giving our kid a stable home which seems like the important thing. At this point though I wonder if we are doing anyone any favors or just setting ourselves up for a lifetime of suck.

Except you may be giving them a stable home of fights and negativity which they will pick up on and display back. Having been a child of a divorce, I can tell you both my mom and dad were much happier after than they were before... and that was reflected by my sister and I.

I dunno, I don't live in your house, but I could see staying together being worse than separating and having happy lives separately. Tough call.

Demosthenes wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

First of all, I just want to say my heart goes out to Eliema and everyone else going through divorce. And secondly, I'm hoping to come here and ask for some advice. After feeling we've made a lot of progress my wife in counseling and I had the worst fight in years last night. I will own up to getting angry at the Super Bowl loss, but things quickly escalated on both sides. We are both suffering from crippling depression. Having been in a combat zone I'm always willing to stick it out for the greater good. My attitude has been yeah life sucks but we are giving our kid a stable home which seems like the important thing. At this point though I wonder if we are doing anyone any favors or just setting ourselves up for a lifetime of suck.

Except you may be giving them a stable home of fights and negativity which they will pick up on and display back. Having been a child of a divorce, I can tell you both my mom and dad were much happier after than they were before... and that was reflected by my sister and I.

I dunno, I don't live in your house, but I could see staying together being worse than separating and having happy lives separately. Tough call. :(

Absolutely agree with this. (Possible Demosthenes and I had a shared childhood without realizing it?) For me, growing up in two different, and remarried, households I got to see two very different examples of how marriage could work -- one really, really well, one that was a constant battle and bitter feelings. Both 2nd marriages have stayed together, but when mine was too much like the latter than the former, I knew it was time.

That said, if things have been going well overall ("lots of progress") I wouldn't throw that all out over a bad night (if that's all it really was). Might be better to put some distance between it and any final decision. Heat of the moment is a horrible time to make life-changing choices, especially with kids affected.

Tend to agree with Demosthenes point of view. But like he says as well, I am not there in your home and will be the last one to judge.
Kids will want their parents together. But that doesn't make it the best option per se. Being divorced and therefor maybe able to be friendly terms,
will give them a way better quality of life. Stress sucks the life out of everyone within the family. I've seen it happening and also have been
the cause of it. Of course this will all be negated if the divorce gets ugly. And I've been through those motions as well. In this case, I was the asshole.
And that made things way worse. Things are now more than ok again.

A 'friendly' divorce could be a great solution. Making each other feel stuck in a situation, makes for a horrible recipee for disaster.
But it has to be mutual. If it is, and things go well, you and your wife might actually not be depressed anymore. Because there is a future that
is good for you and her and the children. If you and your (ex)wife are happy, the children will be happy.

Either way, good luck. Listen well to hear needs. Again, listen well to hear needs. As in, no talking, 'yes ok, got it' and think it over (one of my
major flaws, but I've learned) and then actions working towards those needs. Your needs are important as well, but should also be realistic. If you are both willing to work
on the situation either way, then there is a way forward, which is beneficial for everyone.

I didn't suggest to my wife I wanted a divorce but the drama surrounding an announcement I made sure felt like I suggested it. My wife and I have our ups and downs, of course, but I told my wife I would no longer feel bad, or sad, or negative - in any way - whenever she feels sad, or bad or negative. I told her, and I quote, "I'm done."

This feeling, that I was done, I've only felt twice before. Years ago my body told me I was done with X and then, a decade or two later, with Y. No choice was given to me when X and Y happened. Each time, my body, and then my mind, were on auto-pilot. I just watched myself walk away.

I felt this way again. For the third time, my body told me I was through, this time with situation Z. But this time was different. Z wasn't something I could just quit and walk away from. It was about my relationship with my wife. I didn't want to leave her, didn't want to leave us. I've put too much time into us, survived too many mistakes. I was not prepared to throw away all the gains we've made. But I knew something in me was done, and it was never coming back, not even if I wanted it to. Even if my wife melted down in front of me, I knew, just knew, I could no longer feel bad.

She said it was a surprise, that after nearly 20 years of being together, I still felt bad whenever she felt bad. She said that was pretty dumb of me, to feel bad when she felt bad. I said, yes, that was dumb of me. It was also dumb to simply blurt out, "I'm done," without any kind of IMMEDIATE explanation. Whoops. I told her I didn't want a divorce. I had to clear that up, like, right quick.

When I explained what had happened, about no longer feeling sad, she said she felt sad because I was feeling sad all those times. As if to remind me, my body felt nothing. I felt nothing. I was done feeling bad, done with feeling bad in any way. She was the last thing in my life that could generate negative feelings. Now it's gone and I couldn't be happier with this absence of feeling.

All my adult life, I've said out loud, and in my mind, I do not feel bad about anything. I only care about what I could personally affect. Anything that got me down was discarded immediately. And, after a long time of telling myself this, I came to believe it. I no longer had to repeat to myself, do not care about things you cannot control. The exception was my wife. She was the last thing that could make me feel sad and now that's gone.

After I explained to my wife, about why I was done with feeling sh*tty, she asked if I still cared about her. I said, yes, of course I still cared. Whenever she was happy, I would become happy. If she became sad, which she did that very day, I would feel nothing. Happy Street no longer had any connection to Sad Avenue. I couldn't go to Crappy Town.

She then asked, now what? What if she needs cheering up, she asked me. I said, I would know what to do.

My wife's feeling sad? I would her give her a hug, tell her I love her and make some hot coffee and sandwiches. I would not tell her it was going to be OK. I would not say, "I feel sorry for you." I would perform actions to make her happier, which, in turn, would make me happier. I care about her happiness. I can no longer care about her sadness.

Sparhawk wrote:

Tend to agree with Demosthenes point of view. But like he says as well, I am not there in your home and will be the last one to judge.
Kids will want their parents together. But that doesn't make it the best option per se. Being divorced and therefor maybe able to be friendly terms,
will give them a way better quality of life. Stress sucks the life out of everyone within the family. I've seen it happening and also have been
the cause of it. Of course this will all be negated if the divorce gets ugly. And I've been through those motions as well. In this case, I was the asshole.
And that made things way worse. Things are now more than ok again.

A 'friendly' divorce could be a great solution. Making each other feel stuck in a situation, makes for a horrible recipee for disaster.
But it has to be mutual. If it is, and things go well, you and your wife might actually not be depressed anymore. Because there is a future that
is good for you and her and the children. If you and your (ex)wife are happy, the children will be happy.

Either way, good luck. Listen well to hear needs. Again, listen well to hear needs. As in, no talking, 'yes ok, got it' and think it over (one of my
major flaws, but I've learned) and then actions working towards those needs. Your needs are important as well, but should also be realistic. If you are both willing to work
on the situation either way, then there is a way forward, which is beneficial for everyone.

Thanks all for the advice. Honestly, I cant see a divorce being anything but ugly. At the very least, we'd probably need to do an annulment in the church which having seen my aunt go through it is grueling. I know it's probably oversharing but our romantic life is non-existent and quite frankly I'm not that interested anymore anyway. In a world where there are so many just barely scraping by it feels weird to complain about that. I mean I imagine most people are completely unsatisfied in that category. So I'm trying to be realistic that sex isn't that big a deal.

jdzappa wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

Tend to agree with Demosthenes point of view. But like he says as well, I am not there in your home and will be the last one to judge.
Kids will want their parents together. But that doesn't make it the best option per se. Being divorced and therefor maybe able to be friendly terms,
will give them a way better quality of life. Stress sucks the life out of everyone within the family. I've seen it happening and also have been
the cause of it. Of course this will all be negated if the divorce gets ugly. And I've been through those motions as well. In this case, I was the asshole.
And that made things way worse. Things are now more than ok again.

A 'friendly' divorce could be a great solution. Making each other feel stuck in a situation, makes for a horrible recipee for disaster.
But it has to be mutual. If it is, and things go well, you and your wife might actually not be depressed anymore. Because there is a future that
is good for you and her and the children. If you and your (ex)wife are happy, the children will be happy.

Either way, good luck. Listen well to hear needs. Again, listen well to hear needs. As in, no talking, 'yes ok, got it' and think it over (one of my
major flaws, but I've learned) and then actions working towards those needs. Your needs are important as well, but should also be realistic. If you are both willing to work
on the situation either way, then there is a way forward, which is beneficial for everyone.

Thanks all for the advice. Honestly, I cant see a divorce being anything but ugly. At the very least, we'd probably need to do an annulment in the church which having seen my aunt go through it is grueling. I know it's probably oversharing but our romantic life is non-existent and quite frankly I'm not that interested anymore anyway. In a world where there are so many just barely scraping by it feels weird to complain about that. I mean I imagine most people are completely unsatisfied in that category. So I'm trying to be realistic that sex isn't that big a deal.

To paraphrase Freud, the only abnormal sex is no sex at all. That isn't a perfect statement by any means, and I'm not trying to tell you what your priorities should be by any means. But I will say between your two posts, I do worry for you.

Either way, we're here for you. But don't measure your suffering on some kind of curve or something. Yeah, there are people who have it worse... but that doesn't mean you should not pursue what makes you happy. I'll admit, for a few months post- divorce, I thought long and hard about just giving up on finding romantic happiness again. I had tried going on a few dates and everything felt different, wrong, incomprehensible even. It was weird. And I did think about the fact that at least I had love, or something close to it for a while, and that is more than some people ever find. Hell, my mom did step away from it. She picked herself up after my dad left her to be the philandering bastard we all knew he could be. She devoted herself to my sister and I. From then on, everything was about us and that did make her happy.

I don't even really know where I am going with this except to say this one simple thing. jdzappa, you deserve to be happy. You should go after whatever makes you that. And don't stop pursuing that just because some random folks in some random place are not. There's always going to be people who are unhappy somewhere else... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't or they shouldn't try to be happy anymore.

*big hugs* If you need anything, just let us know.

Demosthenes wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

Tend to agree with Demosthenes point of view. But like he says as well, I am not there in your home and will be the last one to judge.
Kids will want their parents together. But that doesn't make it the best option per se. Being divorced and therefor maybe able to be friendly terms,
will give them a way better quality of life. Stress sucks the life out of everyone within the family. I've seen it happening and also have been
the cause of it. Of course this will all be negated if the divorce gets ugly. And I've been through those motions as well. In this case, I was the asshole.
And that made things way worse. Things are now more than ok again.

A 'friendly' divorce could be a great solution. Making each other feel stuck in a situation, makes for a horrible recipee for disaster.
But it has to be mutual. If it is, and things go well, you and your wife might actually not be depressed anymore. Because there is a future that
is good for you and her and the children. If you and your (ex)wife are happy, the children will be happy.

Either way, good luck. Listen well to hear needs. Again, listen well to hear needs. As in, no talking, 'yes ok, got it' and think it over (one of my
major flaws, but I've learned) and then actions working towards those needs. Your needs are important as well, but should also be realistic. If you are both willing to work
on the situation either way, then there is a way forward, which is beneficial for everyone.

Thanks all for the advice. Honestly, I cant see a divorce being anything but ugly. At the very least, we'd probably need to do an annulment in the church which having seen my aunt go through it is grueling. I know it's probably oversharing but our romantic life is non-existent and quite frankly I'm not that interested anymore anyway. In a world where there are so many just barely scraping by it feels weird to complain about that. I mean I imagine most people are completely unsatisfied in that category. So I'm trying to be realistic that sex isn't that big a deal.

To paraphrase Freud, the only abnormal sex is no sex at all. That isn't a perfect statement by any means, and I'm not trying to tell you what your priorities should be by any means. But I will say between your two posts, I do worry for you.

Either way, we're here for you. But don't measure your suffering on some kind of curve or something. Yeah, there are people who have it worse... but that doesn't mean you should not pursue what makes you happy. I'll admit, for a few months post- divorce, I thought long and hard about just giving up on finding romantic happiness again. I had tried going on a few dates and everything felt different, wrong, incomprehensible even. It was weird. And I did think about the fact that at least I had love, or something close to it for a while, and that is more than some people ever find. Hell, my mom did step away from it. She picked herself up after my dad left her to be the philandering bastard we all knew he could be. She devoted herself to my sister and I. From then on, everything was about us and that did make her happy.

I don't even really know where I am going with this except to say this one simple thing. jdzappa, you deserve to be happy. You should go after whatever makes you that. And don't stop pursuing that just because some random folks in some random place are not. There's always going to be people who are unhappy somewhere else... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't or they shouldn't try to be happy anymore.

*big hugs* If you need anything, just let us know.

I do appreciate it Demosthenes. I realize I need to not make any rash decisions at least until I'm through dealing with a dying close family member. It's very hard to think just of my own happiness given that I've always been raised to put family first. And I do want to make both my wife and my son happy. Anyhow, I appreciate the place to talk about this and get some good feedback from everyone who's gone through it.

ubrakto wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

First of all, I just want to say my heart goes out to Eliema and everyone else going through divorce. And secondly, I'm hoping to come here and ask for some advice. After feeling we've made a lot of progress my wife in counseling and I had the worst fight in years last night. I will own up to getting angry at the Super Bowl loss, but things quickly escalated on both sides. We are both suffering from crippling depression. Having been in a combat zone I'm always willing to stick it out for the greater good. My attitude has been yeah life sucks but we are giving our kid a stable home which seems like the important thing. At this point though I wonder if we are doing anyone any favors or just setting ourselves up for a lifetime of suck.

Except you may be giving them a stable home of fights and negativity which they will pick up on and display back. Having been a child of a divorce, I can tell you both my mom and dad were much happier after than they were before... and that was reflected by my sister and I.

I dunno, I don't live in your house, but I could see staying together being worse than separating and having happy lives separately. Tough call. :(

Absolutely agree with this. (Possible Demosthenes and I had a shared childhood without realizing it?) For me, growing up in two different, and remarried, households I got to see two very different examples of how marriage could work -- one really, really well, one that was a constant battle and bitter feelings. Both 2nd marriages have stayed together, but when mine was too much like the latter than the former, I knew it was time.

That said, if things have been going well overall ("lots of progress") I wouldn't throw that all out over a bad night (if that's all it really was). Might be better to put some distance between it and any final decision. Heat of the moment is a horrible time to make life-changing choices, especially with kids affected.

Whole heartedly agree.

jdzappa wrote:

I do appreciate it Demosthenes. I realize I need to not make any rash decisions at least until I'm through dealing with a dying close family member. It's very hard to think just of my own happiness given that I've always been raised to put family first. And I do want to make both my wife and my son happy. Anyhow, I appreciate the place to talk about this and get some good feedback from everyone who's gone through it.

I think the thing there is that sometimes taking care of your family (kids) means taking care of your happiness first. Like the airplane safety thing where they tell parents to put their own mask on before helping their kids. When I was miserable in my marriage I was not half the father I am now. I mean, it's not like I didn't love or show love to my kids, but I was so angry and frustrated *all* the time, and I didn't feel like I could direct that anger at the person I was actually angry with (my ex), so when my kids did kid things wrong they got the brunt of it. For me, the worst was I knew at the time that this was happening. They'd do something wrong, and it was just pedestrian kids stuff, spilling a drink or whatever, and I'd give them so much more grief than the crime deserved. I'd immediately start hating myself for it and that just made me angrier and more frustrated. It was a horrid cycle. That cycle took some time and work to really break, for me, but it started to get better the minute I started feeling like I was in control of my life and how I lived again.

Strangeblades wrote:

I care about her happiness. I can no longer care about her sadness.

There's all sorts of responses floating around in my head based on this post. My first thought it this probably goes in another thread, but I don't know which one. I'm half tempted to suggest the depression thread, really.

When I began reading your post I thought "damn right you shouldn't let her make you feel sad or down when she is". But that was a knee jerk reaction, turns out you were doing it to yourself.

For the third time, my body told me I was through, this time with situation Z. But this time was different. Z wasn't something I could just quit and walk away from.

What I'm getting here is that maybe your relationship with her isn't Z, but just the negative feelings you put upon yourself when she feels sad, etc. is Z. So, the relationship isn't over, just the feeling sad for her part. Right?

All my adult life, I've said out loud, and in my mind, I do not feel bad about anything. I only care about what I could personally affect. Anything that got me down was discarded immediately. And, after a long time of telling myself this, I came to believe it. I no longer had to repeat to myself, do not care about things you cannot control. The exception was my wife. She was the last thing that could make me feel sad and now that's gone.

Man, what a trip. I struggle with how to respond to this because I can't get past my view that negative feelings aren't meant to be avoided. I struggle with this in my gf, especially when it comes to the kid. She doesn't want him to feel bad ever and while I too want to protect him he does need to feel the good and bad so he'll be able to handle the bad when it happens later in life. Otherwise it'll be too overwhelming for him, just like it's a bit overwhelming for his mother.

I want to suggest that you should allow yourself to feel negative things as they help a person become a whole, integrated person. That said, I don't know you, I don't know what you've been through, I don't know what suggesting "feel negative things" might mean to you.

So, yeah, that doesn't sound like a healthy way to be, to me. But if it is working for you, then so be it.

garion333 wrote:
Strangeblades wrote:

I care about her happiness. I can no longer care about her sadness.

There's all sorts of responses floating around in my head based on this post. My first thought it this probably goes in another thread, but I don't know which one. I'm half tempted to suggest the depression thread, really.

When I began reading your post I thought "damn right you shouldn't let her make you feel sad or down when she is". But that was a knee jerk reaction, turns out you were doing it to yourself.

For the third time, my body told me I was through, this time with situation Z. But this time was different. Z wasn't something I could just quit and walk away from.

What I'm getting here is that maybe your relationship with her isn't Z, but just the negative feelings you put upon yourself when she feels sad, etc. is Z. So, the relationship isn't over, just the feeling sad for her part. Right?

All my adult life, I've said out loud, and in my mind, I do not feel bad about anything. I only care about what I could personally affect. Anything that got me down was discarded immediately. And, after a long time of telling myself this, I came to believe it. I no longer had to repeat to myself, do not care about things you cannot control. The exception was my wife. She was the last thing that could make me feel sad and now that's gone.

Man, what a trip. I struggle with how to respond to this because I can't get past my view that negative feelings aren't meant to be avoided. I struggle with this in my gf, especially when it comes to the kid. She doesn't want him to feel bad ever and while I too want to protect him he does need to feel the good and bad so he'll be able to handle the bad when it happens later in life. Otherwise it'll be too overwhelming for him, just like it's a bit overwhelming for his mother.

I want to suggest that you should allow yourself to feel negative things as they help a person become a whole, integrated person. That said, I don't know you, I don't know what you've been through, I don't know what suggesting "feel negative things" might mean to you.

So, yeah, that doesn't sound like a healthy way to be, to me. But if it is working for you, then so be it.

I've been chewing on this since I read it yesterday as well. That's a needle to thread. The idea of feeling "nothing" to me sets off all sorts of alarms because the full spectrum of feeling is important. I can't imagine walking through my life and not wanting to feel all of it. But no, you absolutely don't want to feel unhappy all the time because someone else does all the time.

For me, whatever it takes to experience someone else's emotions and not absorb them, I don't have it. If I'm around someone who is generally happy/content, I feel happier/more content. If I'm around someone who feels sad all of the time (whether it's through fault of their own or not -- not trying to make a character judgment), I absorb that sadness like a sponge. It's not a surface level thing. I take it in whole. I don't know how not to (and I tried... a lot).

There was a moment for me when I basically decided in my head, "I can't be miserable for this person anymore," but that meant removing myself from that person. Nothing else I tried worked and I still don't really know if that's my failing or my ex's. Bit of both, probably.

jdzappa wrote:

Thanks all for the advice. Honestly, I cant see a divorce being anything but ugly.

I'm going through a divorce right now myself and it hasn't been ugly at all. Mind you, we've been friends for 22 years and married for 13 so there's a lot of history there. Of course we also never really argued, we just grew apart and had different ideas of what we wanted out of life. In my case we've just decided to end the marriage and go our own ways while still caring about each other and even hanging out with our kid together. There's no animosity. I'm not saying there hasn't been some crying but that's just because it's sad to realize things are going to be different and that it didn't work out. I've had lots of people tell me that I'm basically doing divorce wrong with some telling me I need to cut her off completely, sever all emotional ties, try to get everything I can, fight for sole custody of my kid, etc but I really don't think it has to be that was as long as both people are on the same page with it. Now, we've just filed our paperwork so hopefully everything keeps going as smoothly as it has but I don't buy into the belief that every single divorce has to be ugly. It just depends on the circumstances.

Clover, my friend is actually an acquisition lawyer in Paris, and I'm officially a resident in another state, and commute to Paris on weekend for work. Yeah, I know, nothing's simple here. I did have an idea though. The notary you drew up our marriage contract, he probably knows someone, so I'll ask him as soon as possible.

Ubrakto, thanks a bunch. Actually, it's brutal, but it's not as bad as it was a few months ago. It got really, really bad back there, when we were all alone out there, tens of thousand of miles away from family. And at least now I've graduated from med school, which was a huge confidence booster. I know now that I don't have to lie down and take it. Man, this is going to seem silly, but Gloria Gaynor really knew what she was talking about.
As for addressing the situation with the boys... I'm just trying to do the best I can with them. They didn't ask for any of this, and I just want to provide for them and give them every shred of love I can. And definitely not direct a single speck of bitterness towards them. It's not their fault. I just don't know if I can insulate them from the sadness I feel about the situation. No matter how young they are, they can still feel stuff, I just know it.

Disco, I just want to say that I really appreciate it. All the best to the three of you.

Jdzappa, I'm sorry to hear that you and your wife were fighting really badly. Unfortunately, I have to say that I agree with Demosthenes. That bolded sentence he pointed out, that's exactly what I've been hearing my future ex. It's not enough. I'm not saying get divorced tomorrow, but perhaps work on both your depressions, and figure out where you want to go from there. I really, truly hope you find what's best for everyone.
And don't feel bad about complaining about the lack of intimacy. Lack of intimacy freaking sucks. And it's kinda supposed to be included in the package of marriage.

Demosthenes, thanks for sticking around in here and being very insightful and supportive, truly.

Strangeblades, that's... wow. Thanks for sharing. I don't know how to respond to your post, it's so raw and powerful, I'm at a loss. I think Garion and Ubrakto really said it best though.

Kehama, I'm actually kinda jealous. I wish I had your kind of divorce instead of the passive aggressive kind. Don't listen to other people, I think you're doing right, as much as divorce can be done right.

So quick update on my end. I've been doing a lot of thinking (which I could probably rebrand as grieving). As I might've mentioned in my first post, I'm pretty certain he was cheating on me last year, and I think he still is. My mother and a close friend of ours pretty much agree. It's the secrecy, the lack of honesty, he's constantly on his phone. Anyhow, a few days ago, I wrote up a prescription for a complete bloodwork. It kind set in then that it was finished, that I really, really didn't trust him anymore and that I felt betrayed. Up to this point, I've been wavering, hesitating between the believe him / don't believe him stances. I'm also angry at myself, I feel I should've known better. His father cheated on his mother and divorced her 20 years ago. His uncle cheated on his wife for over 30 eyars, right up to the day she died of cancer. Prize idiot I was.

Ah well, on the bright side, my mother is already trying to set me up. I guess.

Eleima wrote:

Ah well, on the bright side, my mother is already trying to set me up. I guess.

I'm sure you know this already, but don't let anyone bully you into getting back into dating. It would be very unusual to be ready for that immediately after (or even before, in this case!) a divorce. Take whatever time you need to grieve for the relationship first. In many ways it's like a loved one dying. It takes time to get over that, though of course everyone is different. Don't be afraid to tell your mom you're not ready yet - I'm sure she will understand.

Rallick wrote:
Eleima wrote:

Ah well, on the bright side, my mother is already trying to set me up. I guess.

I'm sure you know this already, but don't let anyone bully you into getting back into dating. It would be very unusual to be ready for that immediately after (or even before, in this case!) a divorce. Take whatever time you need to grieve for the relationship first. In many ways it's like a loved one dying. It takes time to get over that, though of course everyone is different. Don't be afraid to tell your mom you're not ready yet - I'm sure she will understand.

Weirdly, I actually went on my first date only about a month after the divorce was final. That was admittedly about 3 months after I left, but I felt pretty good about it. Amusingly, then like 4 months after that, I had two dates where things got pretty hot and heavy pretty quickly and totally panicked. That's actually when I went through my thoughts of not dating again. But here I am a year post divorce, and I feel pretty good about my date Friday (and I'll be the first to admit, I think I'm falling for this girl pretty hard and am quite happy with that). Everyone needs different time and there is no right answer except that which you discover for yourself.

Clover, my friend is actually an acquisition lawyer in Paris, and I'm officially a resident in another state, and commute to Paris on weekend for work. Yeah, I know, nothing's simple here. I did have an idea though. The notary you drew up our marriage contract, he probably knows someone, so I'll ask him as soon as possible.

Anything that keeps you out of the phone book lottery... that sounds like a solid lead.

And no, you can't insulate your kids from the sadness. They know. But they already knew something was wrong, so now you can rest a little easier knowing that you're doing something to move the situation forward.