Dealing with Divorce Catch-All

Oh Crispy.

Same here, let me know if you want to talk.

But it is very hard to be alone during the day. Alone with my thoughts. Sometimes I can keep myself up and going on momentum, making plans for what I'll do at home, what I need to do with my next paycheck, music, podcasts, etc, there's different things, but other times... it is unpleasant. There are times I'm just focusing on making it minute to minute, hour to hour, until I'm home and with my son.

Minus the son. Yup. Been a rough year for me. 3 days ago was the day my ex-wife told me what she wanted. A year ago today was me arriving home with my mother completely unsure what I was going to do. Every day gets a little better... but that cloud is still hovering over me. Every so often I do just kind of have a mini melt-down/break and have a good cry or find a friend for a bear hug. That being alone so much definitely takes some serious getting used to... and I don't even know that I'd say I'm fully there.

On the other front, I have done a bit of dating. It's been hit or miss, met some wonderful women, but nothing even remotely lasting (out of like 6 women I've been out with, I've had one second date). Amusingly, this weekend, I got two different messages from two different women... one who lives about 3 hours away, so basically a non-starter, but kind of depressing to see someone so amazing and both of us basically saying we couldn't really do that. And another from an awesome lady who is VERY poly, like... 1 live in boyfriend, another long distance, and "several occasional/regular dalliances" as she put it. And while I can be a very giving and sharing person TO a partner... being giving and sharing OF a partner... not so much.

But, as the child of a divorce, I can tell you, as long as you're caring and doing for your son... he's not really going to care that you got divorced, he's going to care that you and your ex are happy as people and happy with him. I would recommend putting him first. There's a reason why my sister and I still spend a lot of time with our mom and no time with our dad and it's got nothing to do with gender and everything to do with who was there for us from the divorce on.

*big hugs*

Thank you everyone. I appreciate it and I'm sure I will be taking you up on the offers.

The biggest thing on my mind now is what's going on with my son. I've mentioned this in IRC but for months now we've had 2-6 roommates in our home in addition to being the hangout for all of the friends we have on this street. Always busy.

She is now "Facebook official" boyfriends with the brother of one of couples that lived with us for a while, he's been sleeping on the couch for a while. As I said this has been building for a while, I couldn't care less that he is sleeping in what was once my bed in what was once my room. I'm happy that she seems to have found someone to help her through this. I don't know the guy well but I like him and we get along fine.

What concerns me is if something goes wrong with this rebound relationship, what that is going to do my son. She isn't going out of her way to harm my relationship with my son, but at the same time, I'm just concerned. I think I'm going to try to figure out what a good way to bring it up when we talk tomorrow.

I'm thinking that I am going to stop paying for services I don't use, like Hulu, her music subscription, the newspaper, etc. A bunch of cheap little things that in no way affect the care of my son. I pay all the bills, we get a varying amount of rent every month that I'm thinking I'm going to have her just use for her expenses in addition to what's left over after bills and paying on my CC every week (the only debt we have). I just want to start saving more. Gotta think on this some more.

Edit: I am balancing doing what's right, vs doing what I need to do to protect myself if lawyers ever do enter the picture. Hope for the best and plan for the worst. IMO she is digging herself a hole if lawyers do enter the picture at some point but at the same time her current lack of job history/employability and my own inability to take custody of my son given the restrictions forced by my current career... it's a balance. I have long term plans in the works around my employment that will end up with me having a more normal schedule allowing me 50/50 custody but that is a long ways off.

I welcome any comments or advice in any direction. I've got no issues with cleaning up the mess I made but I don't claim to know the best or only way to do this either.

General Crespin wrote:

What concerns me is if something goes wrong with this rebound relationship, what that is going to do my son. She isn't going out of her way to harm my relationship with my son, but at the same time, I'm just concerned. I think I'm going to try to figure out what a good way to bring it up when we talk tomorrow.

I wouldn't. Simple rule here: if and when it affects your relationship with your son, then you have to deal with it. Until then, leave it alone - it's her life, and there's nothing but trouble down that path.

I'm thinking that I am going to stop paying for services I don't use, like Hulu, her music subscription, the newspaper, etc. A bunch of cheap little things that in no way affect the care of my son. I pay all the bills, we get a varying amount of rent every month that I'm thinking I'm going to have her just use for her expenses in addition to what's left over after bills and paying on my CC every week (the only debt we have). I just want to start saving more. Gotta think on this some more.

This is an excellent idea. If you haven't already, make sure she has no access to your finances, especially things that can really screw you up like a credit card, line of credit, or loan. It's one thing to be making sure the bills are paid, and an entirely different thing to expose yourself to liability for her spending.

I welcome any comments or advice in any direction. I've got no issues with cleaning up the mess I made but I don't claim to know the best or only way to do this either.

Of course I don't know the details, but you need to correct your thinking here. This is not your mess. Most likely the mess belongs to both of you, and given that she's already hooked up with another guy I'd argue pretty strongly that the majority of the mess belongs to her.

Oh, and piggybacking on Aeitus comments about making sure that your ex doesn't have access financially -- be very mindful that if the child is on your health insurance and gets taken to the doctor that you received the bill or a copy of it. On of my friends had no idea that his credit had tanked until he went for a government job interview and realized that his ex-wife never bothered to forward or pay any doctor's bills that weren't covered by his insurance. Since he didn't live at the house where the bills went, he had no idea.

Man, I'm so sorry to hear you're going through this I don't have a lot of advice really, but my friend who practices family law in Colorado was at Cordell, a firm with a Michigan branch, back when my brother got divorced a few years ago. She sent us to this site to get some general resources about divorce/custody/men's rights in Michigan. It's not the same as getting professional legal advice obviously, but it helped us get a general idea of what to expect and consider.

Hopefully we can get out there for a visit soon here. Get the kids together, take your mind off things for a bit.

Crespin, you and her really need to sit down and get a separation agreement on paper. Even if it's just between you and not official (though having it official would be much better). Find out from your local courthouse what needs to be done, and there may even be pro-bono legal services to help you two work it out and file it properly.

Not having this got me stuck with middle six figures in debt from my ex, incurred during the 2 years we were separated, but not officially. He didn't even mean to do it; he ended up in jail and then his creditors went after me, and then the IRS went after one of his creditors and their idea of how to collect a debt was go after that guy's debtors as well. It took me over 10 years to straighten that out, and a lot of lawyer's fees, and I still ended up paying over half of it.

Demosthenes wrote:

I got two different messages from two different women... one who lives about 3 hours away, so basically a non-starter, but kind of depressing to see someone so amazing and both of us basically saying we couldn't really do that.

My boyfriend and I are on year 9 of living three hours apart. It has actually been a pretty good thing.

momgamer wrote:

Crespin, you and her really need to sit down and get a separation agreement on paper. Even if it's just between you and not official (though having it official would be much better). Find out from your local courthouse what needs to be done, and there may even be pro-bono legal services to help you two work it out and file it properly.

Not having this got me stuck with middle six figures in debt from my ex, incurred during the 2 years we were separated, but not officially. He didn't even mean to do it; he ended up in jail and then his creditors went after me, and then the IRS went after one of his creditors and their idea of how to collect a debt was go after that guy's debtors as well. It took me over 10 years to straighten that out, and a lot of lawyer's fees, and I still ended up paying over half of it.

A similar thing happened to my mother. While she was separated from my dad, he racked up tens of thousands of medical bills that she was then on the hook for.

I didn't think it'd come to this. Or at least, I hoped it wouldn't. Yet here I am.

I met my husband in 2003, I was 19, he was 28. A year later, we were together, and six months after that, he moved cross country and in with me. We were married in 2007, our first was born in 2011, and our second just last year. Our first hasn't made our lives easy, and our marriage has been slowly going nowhere. Instead of uniting and rallying together, we're fracturing together. My husband is completely focused on our sons, I'm completely invisible. All I am for him now is a mother, and a bad one at that. We tried counseling, but that didn't help. Heck, the first guy we saw a year ago told me I should "revisit the memories of [my] birth." When I had a bout of post-partum depression, last August after my eldest's diagnosis and 5 months after the birth of my second, my husband said I did it on purpose to hurt him. I'm also not completely convinced he didn't cheat on me, despite his protests (I got suspicious about a year ago when he added a pin code on his phone for the first time ever - found a whole bunch of suspicious emails with a "friend").

A couple of months ago, he said he wanted a divorce but hasn't acted on it. He says he's waiting. Until things are "set" for my first. I'm certain he's waiting for me to crack and get a lawyer first so he can play the victim card, the abandoned dad.

Ugh, sorry, I didn't mean to sound like such a Debbie downer, and I certainly didn't mean to LiveJournal, but... well, here I am. On the fast track to divorce, and it just really sucks. I didn't believe in divorce, I believed in vows, and working together to get through harder times. But I just don't know what to do anymore and I see no other way at this juncture. So yeah, hi gang.

There are a few LiveJournaling-approved threads, this is one of them. *hugs*

I hope for you and your kids' sake that your marriage is salvageable, but if it isn't, it isn't. Sometimes divorce is the best course of action. It has its consequences, but it's better to have two happy but separate parents than miserable ones who are together (imho of course).

garion333 wrote:

There are a few LiveJournaling-approved threads, this is one of them. *hugs*

I hope for you and your kids' sake that your marriage is salvageable, but if it isn't, it isn't. Sometimes divorce is the best course of action. It has its consequences, but it's better to have two happy but separate parents than miserable ones who are together (imho of course).

As the child in that situation, it's completely true. My parents were both much happier after their divorce than before... and that really does make all the difference.

I'm so sorry Eleima. *big hugs*

I'm really, really sad to hear about your situation, Eleima. I'm here to support you. garion and Demosthenes have put it well.

Ugh, sorry, I didn't mean to sound like such a Debbie downer, and I certainly didn't mean to LiveJournal, but... well, here I am. On the fast track to divorce, and it just really sucks. I didn't believe in divorce, I believed in vows, and working together to get through harder times. But I just don't know what to do anymore and I see no other way at this juncture. So yeah, hi gang.

I actually felt the same way... and the realization that my ex-wife clearly did not was a big part of moving on. Basically realizing that her words that she "couldn't see how we could fix this, and so why waste our time?" could be easily paraphrased to "I know I said I love you and we'll work on anything that comes between us, but I didn't mean it," had me chugging along much quicker than I would have expected after my divorce was finalized a year ago.

Thank you very much, all three of you, it means a lot. Garion, I know what you mean. As it is, things are so bad that the kids are already suffering for it. Number two isn't even one yet, so not as much, but my eldest... He gets so much worse when both of us are around, he's more prone to tantrums, and is generally tougher to manage. I'm not saying it's easy when it's just me and the boys, but it's easier.

That sounds familiar, Demosthenes. As it is, I've been crying and beginning for us to try to do something, anything, but my pleas have fallen on deaf ears. If I so much speak of us, then I'm being selfish and not thinking of the boys who need us. I'm still heartbroken, and I would like nothing more than for things to change, but at this stage... I just want it to end, not draw it out. I don't understand why he's still here if he wants nothing to do with me.

Ugh, I did it again. What I really meant to say is thank you, truly.

Eleima, I'm so sorry to hear you're going through this. I don't have much to offer except more encouragement that "live-journaling" is fine and everyone here is willing to listen if you need an outlet/virtual hug.

Eleima wrote:

Thank you very much, all three of you, it means a lot. Garion, I know what you mean. As it is, things are so bad that the kids are already suffering for it. Number two isn't even one yet, so not as much, but my eldest... He gets so much worse when both of us are around, he's more prone to tantrums, and is generally tougher to manage. I'm not saying it's easy when it's just me and the boys, but it's easier.

That sounds familiar, Demosthenes. As it is, I've been crying and beginning for us to try to do something, anything, but my pleas have fallen on deaf ears. If I so much speak of us, then I'm being selfish and not thinking of the boys who need us. I'm still heartbroken, and I would like nothing more than for things to change, but at this stage... I just want it to end, not draw it out. I don't understand why he's still here if he wants nothing to do with me.

Ugh, I did it again. What I really meant to say is thank you, truly.

*big hugs* I'll admit, mine was likely easier because it was childfree, but I've been there. It's tough, I know, so no worries and no need to apologize for anything. You're always welcome to dump your feelings out here. I certainly did during mine.

Eleima wrote:

Thank you very much, all three of you, it means a lot. Garion, I know what you mean. As it is, things are so bad that the kids are already suffering for it. Number two isn't even one yet, so not as much, but my eldest... He gets so much worse when both of us are around, he's more prone to tantrums, and is generally tougher to manage. I'm not saying it's easy when it's just me and the boys, but it's easier.

That's true in any relationship with tension, which is all of them at some point. Kids pick up on our tension, our moods, and reflect it back.

But don't beat yourself up too badly, this happens in happy relationships. The kid always acts worse when his mother is home. He may not know why he does it, but I sure as hell do: she gives in. Hell, he even talks differently. Of course he's excited when she gets home, but it can be very night and day. I've had numerous conversations with his grandparents over the phenomenon.

Anyway, that's a bit off topic.

Eleima wrote:

Ugh, I did it again. What I really meant to say is thank you, truly.

Quit it, you're allowed to unload.

Eleima wrote:

That sounds familiar, Demosthenes. As it is, I've been crying and beginning for us to try to do something, anything, but my pleas have fallen on deaf ears. If I so much speak of us, then I'm being selfish and not thinking of the boys who need us. I'm still heartbroken, and I would like nothing more than for things to change, but at this stage... I just want it to end, not draw it out. I don't understand why he's still here if he wants nothing to do with me.

I wanted to respond to this separately as there's a lot going on here.

Sounds like he doesn't want to talk about things. A lot of men tend to "fix" things by ignoring the problems for so long they go away. Could be that. Could be a bazillion things, natch.

The counseling you mentioned, did you ever find a counselor that worked for you? For you both? That you liked? The fact he went to counseling is a good sign, right?

Have you tried counseling on your own? That's helped me immensely in the past. I'd probably stay away from people who want to focus on your own childhood or birth as they're probably from the Freudian side of psychology, but otherwise a good counselor or therapist can do a lot to help you cope. It might help lessen the stress on your side. But it's tough to find a good one you click with and sometimes you have to stick with it for a while even if you don't "see" any benefits. If you can afford it and have the time, totes do it.

I don't understand why he's still here if he wants nothing to do with me.

Things might get better over time, but this is a question people have asked over and over again for, oh, all time. If he's not giving you an answer, chances are it isn't you, it's him and he doesn't know why he feels like he does.

There's my pop psychology for the day.

Eleima:

This might not be helpful, but it's my experience with this kind of thing.

My parents weren't married, but ostensibly "together" for much of my childhood. I was 12 when they officially called it, but I knew they hadn't been in a relationship for a while, likely for over a decade. Hell, they stopped sleeping in the same bed for the last five years or so. Long story short, he was emotionally abusive, short fuse, borderline, if not full-blown (functional) alcoholic. Boilerplate stuff. He never took it out on us (the kids), but he pretty much ruined any self-worth my mom had. She's still struggling to find any remnants of it. I can't speak to the day to day motivation for continuing that kind of charade. In the end, I suppose "for the kids" is a big factor. My mom not being able to say enough is enough is another.

I'm not saying it bears any similarity to your situation, obviously, but I just want you to know that you're not being selfish. This idea of "your kids deserve all you have to give, stability, security" etc. is all well and good, but they also deserve a stable and healthy mom (or dad). I hate that my mom thought she couldn't do what she wanted (needed) because I *existed*. Which isn't what she'd say, but it's the truth.

Good luck with everything, regardless of what happens. Do what's best for your kids, yes, but don't forget about yourself, is, I guess, my point?

I don't know. I'm rambling.

Eleima wrote:

I didn't think it'd come to this. Or at least, I hoped it wouldn't. Yet here I am.

I met my husband in 2003, I was 19, he was 28. A year later, we were together, and six months after that, he moved cross country and in with me. We were married in 2007, our first was born in 2011, and our second just last year. Our first hasn't made our lives easy, and our marriage has been slowly going nowhere. Instead of uniting and rallying together, we're fracturing together. My husband is completely focused on our sons, I'm completely invisible. All I am for him now is a mother, and a bad one at that. We tried counseling, but that didn't help.

What you describe is very, very similar to what how it went for me (circa 2009). We didn't have the age difference but we did have two kids in quick succession and never found balanced footing after that. To me, it's one of the things few people tell you. I mean everyone says it changes everything, but the reality is both partners change after having kids and if you don't change in the same direction or at least be able pull together and find some balance, it can go south incredibly fast. It sucks. No other word for it.

While I was the husband in this case, I was where you are in terms of my ex being completely focused on the kids to the detriment of all else. This may be different for you, but I was doing the cleaning, the laundry, keeping the bills paid, home upkeep, yada yada, which I was fine with during infancy. I figured that's a husband's job to pick up all the slack when there's an infant that, frankly, needs its mom more than it needs me during that first year. (To be fair, I did my share of 2am feedings and diapers too.) But as the kids got towards 3-5yo we never got back to any kind of balance and I got progressively more angry about it. I felt like I was just there to be a servant. No emotional connections anymore. No intellectual. Certainly no physical. Every attempt to try and breach the gap and get moving in the same direction again --and I did my share of stupid things; not playing the saint here-- only seemed to make things worse (even with counseling). In my life I had never been that kind of miserable and it affected my ability to be the kind of dad I wanted to be -- and I *love* being a dad. I remember sitting in meetings at work and trying not to cry. Sitting in my car when I got back home working up the will to go into a home environment that I despised because I couldn't find any way to make it better.

I was the one that finally ended up pulling the plug on it and it was the hardest thing I'd ever done, because I did take my vows seriously. I hate it when people assume that divorced couples just gave up without a fight or that they should be miserable "for the children." (Or that miserable could've been avoided if they'd just work together, as if all you have to do is wave a magic wand and both partners will suddenly become fully rational.) It's bullsh*t. Sometimes there's just nothing left to do but either be miserable together (a wonderful example for the kids to think about marriage) or take a shot at happiness apart. Don't let anyone look down their nose at you. It's your ****ing life and it's too damn short to spend it in hell. (And I speak, too, as a child of divorce, so I've experienced from both angles. My parents are wonderful, but they were also better off apart.)

What I'd tell you is it has changed my life for the better. But it took time. Five years on, I went through all the stuff I expect most divorced parents go through. Mourning the loss. Adjusting to not having your kids with you full time (my ex and I worked out a 50/50 split). But also, having how I wanted to live back in my hands. (My ex hoarded, which didn't help matters.) Over time I realized just how far away I'd gotten from being me. Getting back to that was incredibly freeing. The simmering rage I was always feeling melted away. I got back to being the kind of dad I wanted to be. Dating had its ups and downs, but I wouldn't trade any of it. Last May I got re-married and the last 1.5 years (we moved in together a year ago September) has been the absolute best time of my life. I have a partner again and this time it feels like just that, having a partner again, which is all I ever really wanted. My kids are now also with me full time again. (Long story, but my ex has had a rougher road of it and had to move back home with her family.) As hard as I know it is for them away from their mom (who they see on school breaks and every 2-3 weekends), I think they're thriving on the consistency.

Anyway, I obviously don't know you, but the reason I'm telling you this is to affirm to you that it can get better and there is *no* rulebook for how you get there. Your world is in upheaval and, if a divorce does happen, that kicks up a lot of dust. It takes time (a couple years) for it to really clear and give you a sense of how it's going to be. Use the time to start setting up the life you want to have. Be a great mom, but when your kids are away, build a life for you too. Expect tons of anxiety, doubt, depression... the whole nine. But never have any doubt that it will get better if you don't give up on being happy. During the worst times, find something --anything-- that brings comfort. For me, it was listening to A Better Son/Daughter by Rilo Kiley over and over again, during what I not-so-fondly remember as The Month of Infinite Pain. (The whole year sucked, but there was one particularly brutal month.)

Finally, while much will depend on your ex too, avoid trying to "win" in the divorce part. Nobody wins those things and it's the one thing my ex and I did right. We never put the kids between us. We worked together on custody. We worked together on dividing stuff up fairly. And, really, the stuff in your home is just that... stuff. It's almost all replacable or something you can live without. (I was happy to see most of the stuff from my home go away, to be honest. I was weighed down by it.) Trying to win makes *everything* worse. And, no, you don't want to get taken to the cleaners, so there's a line. But recognize the difference between ego and fairness. Things that truly matter and things that don't.

As a parent, the main thing I tried to do through it all (and still do) is try to look at it from the perspective of my kids, but 20 years from now. When they have grown what are they going to remember about how I handled this time? I want them to remember me doing everything I could to make it as smooth as possible for them. That I was always there for them for after school activities. That I was there to help with homework. That I read to them and tucked them in every night they were with me. That I made sure I was cooking healthy meals for them. All the stuff kids can't fully recognize as important at the time, but they do in hindsight. (If you really want to "win," that's where you do it. It's also how you can make sure you can look yourself in the mirror.)

If you want any kind of advice, or just someone who will listen, please feel free to PM me. I'm happy to provide whatever insight I can. It's a miserable, hellish time. It can also 100% change your life for the better.

Best wishes to you (and anyone else reading going through this)!

EDIT: That all came out much more long-winded than I intended when I started. Sorry!

So sorry to hear things are going bad for you and your family Eleima

ubrakto wrote:

I hate it when people assume that divorced couples just gave up without a fight or that they should be miserable "for the children." (Or that miserable could've been avoided if they'd just work together, as if all you have to do is wave a magic wand and both partners will suddenly become fully rational.) It's bullsh*t. Sometimes there's just nothing left to do but either be miserable together (a wonderful example for the kids to think about marriage) or take a shot at happiness apart. Don't let anyone look down their nose at you. It's your ****ing life and it's too damn short to spend it in hell. (And I speak, too, as a child of divorce, so I've experienced from both angles. My parents are wonderful, but they were also better off apart.)

Speaking as a child of divorce, I'm nodding 100% at the above. I can't imagine how much differently (and probably not for the better) my life would've turned out if my parents had stuck together. Like Garrion says, kids pick up on tension even if you think you're doing a good job at masking it, and it does impact them. I remember feeling terrible and scared when my parents would argue and not understanding what was going on.

Divorce was also a bit traumatic because it was a major upheaval. I remember it took 2nd grade me several months to a year to realize that my parents weren't going to get back together and things were going to be happy again (like a fairy tale). Be sure to seek family counseling (fortunately my parents, or at least my dad made arrangements for this... I don't really remember my mom ever being present in the sessions) for you and your kids. As a kid I didn't 100% understand what was going on, but I think it was helpful to me in the end to have a 3rd party try and work through the feelings I was having and answer questions about it. It was probably also helpful to have a place to talk about it that wasn't home or school given how topsy-turvy everything had become.

Finally, while much will depend on your ex too, avoid trying to "win" in the divorce part. Nobody wins those things and it's the one thing my ex and I did right. We never put the kids between us. We worked together on custody.

This too. In hindsight I think my mom fell into the "win" trap hard and was always bitter about it and would regularly complain about my dad not being required to pay child support (as part of the custody agreement they worked out) despite the fact he often paid for most of our expenses at the time like medical/dental work, school supplies, school trips, etc. I also think she resented that she didn't get full custody but she never articulated that to me (and it's probably a good thing that she didn't get full custody of my sister and I).

Hyetal wrote:

Good luck with everything, regardless of what happens. Do what's best for your kids, yes, but don't forget about yourself, is, I guess, my point?

+1

Truly, thank you all. I'm deeply touched by your words, and I ahve no words to express my gratitude.
Grabbing a few points I want to hit on, because I think there's something there, the wisdom of the goodjer hivemind or something.

@Garion: After that indeed Freudian session, I didn't go back, but my husband kept at it with that guy for a few months until my don's diagnosis, then he stopped. As I had PPD, I started seeing a psychiatrist in August. We tried joint counseling again in October, but that wasn't very helpful. We tried thi odd but interesting approach. Every night, one of us would have 30min to say whatever to the other. And the listener wasn't allowed to react in any way. We tried for a couple of weeks, but didn't get anywhere. Then we moved overseas back home, and nothing. I'm still looking for a therapist, because I know I'm going to need it (I have no illusions, I know I'm "broken" in my own particular fashion too, and there's all this stuff to deal with), but haven't found a fit yet. Will keep at it though.
Your pop psychology rings true, to be fair. He's admitted it himself, he doesn't know what to do, how to proceed. He's utterly lost, and any attempt to try and work at it is shut down because our sons come first. And good grief, I'm the first to throw myself under a bus for my boys, but one doesn't have to negate the other.

@Ubrakto: Thank you very, very much for your post. It all sounds incredibly familiar. It's slightly different (he's been doing a lot of the cooking and cleaning, I have a more demanding job, and was absolutely exhausted, not to mention underweight when pregnant with number two), but very familiar. Something you said really stuck with me. "It's your ****ing life and it's too damn short to spend it in hell." That's pertty much where I'm at right now. I deserve better. I don't deserve to be treated like another piece of furniture, constantly berated (heck, even the furniture doesn't get talked down to). I have my flaws, but good grief, I'm doing the best I can.
There is no rulebook, indeed. The hard part is just trying to draw a map through this forsaken jungle. I don't want to "win", I just want a clean cut at this point. There was a time I was so angry, I wanted to take him to the cleaners (if anyone would be cashing in, it's me) and trot out all those hurtful emails he traded with that patient of his. But that won't solve anything. It won't help me, and it won't help my boys.
Anyway, don't apologuize for being longwinded, it's a bit of a relief to find I'm not alone, especially when most of the people around me are basically telling me to be patient (except for a few key people, like my best friend).

@Hyetal: Wow, I'm so sorry to hear that. I hear your point definitely, and while we're nowhere near those kind of issues, it's still bad enough that I understand what you're talking about.

@Shoptroll: Thanks. Definitely looking into counseling. Probably not for my kids, though. My eldest is three and on the spectrum, and I don't know that he'd take to therapy all that much, particularly since he isn't verbal or barely. Number two is only ten months. My heart breaks when I think of them. I can still see myself sobbing with my newborn and just repeating over and over "I'm sorry". I just wish things were different, they don't deserve all this. But yes, most definitely, no fighting over the kids. A 50/50 custody would be ideal, really. I just hope we can be civil to each other, at least for the kids. At this stage, that's all I'm after.

Eleima wrote:

it's a bit of a relief to find I'm not alone, especially when most of the people around me are basically telling me to be patient

That's what I hoped for. Knowing people who've gone through it and come out the other side was probably the most helpful thing to me throughout all of it. Made me feel less alone. And even not knowing you, I can promise you that you're not either.

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, Dr. E. ((hugs))

ubrakto wrote:
Eleima wrote:

it's a bit of a relief to find I'm not alone, especially when most of the people around me are basically telling me to be patient

That's what I hoped for. Knowing people who've gone through it and come out the other side was probably the most helpful thing to me throughout all of it. Made me feel less alone. And even not knowing you, I can promise you that you're not either.

Yup, this thread was magical for that for me. My mom was mostly in disbelief that it was even happening, so she wasn't a terribly great help for dealing with it, in spite of having gone through 2 herself.

I wish I had something better than hugs. Mostly I got *HUGS*.

As the guy who had his own thread for his divorce...ya know...keep posting as long and venting as you want and we will keep reading and supporting. Seriously.

One of the things that turned from theory to fact for me, being a parent, is that your kids do what you do. They don't do what you tell them. I've watched many models around me growing up of "life is for suffering, and accepting suffering" in all the shapes and colors you could name. By some miracle, some counseling, and some horrific stuff to go through, I've definitely come down on the side of the most important model I can provide my kids is as far from that message as I can get.

I don't know if it helps, but it sounds like you're ready to show your kids that "life is not for putting up with being treated like crap by someone who doesn't love you or want to work on having a real life together."

Thinking this way helps me give myself permission for things like taking care of myself better, forgiving myself for making human mistakes and having human weaknesses. And also led my wife and I to dating each other again after our second child turned one years old, and we'd let our relationship devolve into frustrated exclamations of "Your turn!" You mentioned that all he sees you now as, is a mother. This is when Greek men around here typically start dating other people while still married. So...the honest friend part of me says if he's not interested in dating you...you can model telling him to f*** off a bit.

Thank you very, very much for the support. I can't even begin to say how important it is. It's not that I don't have any support from my family, but my mom mostly just tells me to be patient, and my dad just well... doesn't say anything. My sister doesn't have much to say, since she's still young and very much in the "hooneymoon" period of her relationship. My friends, when they know and have anything to say about what's going on are mostly telling me to get out.

But yeah... Mostly, this is what I'm thinking now:

Roo wrote:

I don't know if it helps, but it sounds like you're ready to show your kids that "life is not for putting up with being treated like crap by someone who doesn't love you or want to work on having a real life together."

I'm just done at this point. I'm done being kicked when I'm down, and feeling this complete absence of support. That's just not what I had in my mind when I was thinking relationship / marriage.

Things are slow, and I have no idea how they'll work out, but as much as it pains me, as much as I wish things had turned out differently, I'm mostly coming to terms that I'm on the road to divorce. Time to get a lawyer, I guess.

Do you have any attorney friends/acquaintances you can talk to? It's true that you'll need to actually retain one soon, but having someone you already know weigh in on the situation, and maybe recommend someone for you, might make starting the process a little less terrible.

Sometimes acquaintances are better for this than closer friends, actually.

Do get a good lawyer. Just watch out they don't play the game and drag things out. Costing money on both sides.
A well defined divorce in writing is always good to have to fall back on when you need to. Hopefully not.

Live is too short for bullsh*t. So I hope for your sake that things will go as smooth as they can be and you can
move on with your life