The guy who broke into Olivia Bertalan's house and the guy who Zimmerman saw looking into another house a few months later was Emmanuel Burgess.
He doesn't look like Martin at all.
"They all look alike". AmIrite? That transcript Jayhawker posted was nuts. Zimmerman over and over again: "He's black". For Zimmerman that was enough to link him to the other crimes. To Zimmerman "they" all apparently look alike.
OG_slinger wrote:The guy who broke into Olivia Bertalan's house and the guy who Zimmerman saw looking into another house a few months later was Emmanuel Burgess.
He doesn't look like Martin at all.
"They all look alike". AmIrite? That transcript Jayhawker posted was nuts. Zimmerman over and over again: "He's black". For Zimmerman that was enough to link him to the other crimes. To Zimmerman "they" all apparently look alike.
Nice. Go with the Zimmerman is a racist angle and just ignore the the fact that the Dispatcher asked him the suspects race?
This thread has come far.
DSGamer wrote:OG_slinger wrote:The guy who broke into Olivia Bertalan's house and the guy who Zimmerman saw looking into another house a few months later was Emmanuel Burgess.
He doesn't look like Martin at all.
"They all look alike". AmIrite? That transcript Jayhawker posted was nuts. Zimmerman over and over again: "He's black". For Zimmerman that was enough to link him to the other crimes. To Zimmerman "they" all apparently look alike.
Nice. Go with the Zimmerman is a racist angle and just ignore the the fact that the Dispatcher asked him the suspects race?
This thread has come far.
I think the dispatcher was asking a basic question in case they actually needed to act on it. When the dispatcher didn't meet his level of panic he kept repeating the fact that he was black as if the dispatcher didn't appreciate the gravity of that fact.
I think the dispatcher was asking a basic question in case they actually needed to act on it. When the dispatcher didn't meet his level of panic he kept repeating the fact that he was black as if the dispatcher didn't appreciate the gravity of that fact.
He says it 2x. Once in response to the dispatcher ---"he looks black", the second time confirming that he is in fact "a black male"
Not over and over again. Unless you were referring to something else.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring…
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK…
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
And I'll end my night with Charles Barkley weighing in on the Zimmerman verdict, which I think is pretty on the mark.
Drat, double post.
Ballotechnic wrote:They've failed to spread it? By mainstream media are you referring to CNN, Reuters, the Washington Post, Huffington Post, etc that have articles that readily come up in a Google search?
Yeah, failed, because again, while "Martin" goes hand-in-hand with "weed" and "trouble at school" thanks to repetition, "Zimmerman" does not with "restraining order" and "sex abuse." If they hadn't failed, then the notion that Mr. Martin "should have been polite" to the violent, lying, sex abuser following him first in a car then on foot through the streets of the night...well, I don't think you'd see anyone putting forth that idea in the first place, so I can't finish that sentence. The continued flagellation of The Media meme is manipulative and empty to the extreme. Mr. Martin's minor faults have permeated everything, Zimmerman's upsetting darkness has not.
By flagellation of the media meme do you mean when you say the media is ignoring it and I show you evidence to the contrary? I think each side has done an excellent job trying to taint the reputation of the other.
But NBC earns a special place of loathing in my heart for deliberately manipulating the 911 call to make the incident appear racially motivated.
And I've never indicated that Mr Martin should have been polite to anyone. But that if he was truly freaked out by this strange dude following him he should have gotten the f*ck away for safeties sake. Instead it appears that he chose to confront the strange dude with tragic results.
Little anecdote...
Years ago after I got my license my friend and I were on the way back from the movies. We were both in our teens but I was a pretty big kid from playing varsity football.
On our way home we passed through a construction area were the traffic merged. The car behind me took exception to this and immediately started laying on his horn. I looked back through the review mirror and he was fully enraged, flipping us off and yelling and screaming out the window.
He did this continuously for about 5 miles. Now my friend and I could have pulled over, it was 2 on 1, and confronted him. I even had a tire iron behind the back seat.
But what I did was beat feet for home, eventually losing the guy on a back road. He followed us for close to 10 miles before pulling a u turn and heading back to the city.
Why didn't we stop and confront him? I hadn't done anything wrong and was well within my rights.
I didn't stop because while there were two of us and I didn't know what he was armed with in his car. He was acting odd and irrational and the safer bet was to flee rather than turn and fight.
Edited in italics.
"They all look alike". AmIrite? That transcript Jayhawker posted was nuts. Zimmerman over and over again: "He's black". For Zimmerman that was enough to link him to the other crimes. To Zimmerman "they" all apparently look alike.
No. There's no evidence he made his decision based on race.
Yeah, failed, because again, while "Martin" goes hand-in-hand with "weed" and "trouble at school" thanks to repetition, "Zimmerman" does not with "restraining order" and "sex abuse." If they hadn't failed, then the notion that Mr. Martin "should have been polite" to the violent, lying, sex abuser following him first in a car then on foot through the streets of the night...well, I don't think you'd see anyone putting forth that idea in the first place, so I can't finish that sentence. The continued flagellation of The Media meme is manipulative and empty to the extreme. Mr. Martin's minor faults have permeated everything, Zimmerman's upsetting darkness has not.
The media even changed his race from a minority into a white person, presumably so he could take advantage of the pro-white court system. Thanks, media!
And I'll end my night with Charles Barkley weighing in on the Zimmerman verdict, which I think is pretty on the mark.
So you like the confirmation bias that Maria Bartiromo likes.
SpacePPoliceman wrote:Yeah, failed, because again, while "Martin" goes hand-in-hand with "weed" and "trouble at school" thanks to repetition, "Zimmerman" does not with "restraining order" and "sex abuse." If they hadn't failed, then the notion that Mr. Martin "should have been polite" to the violent, lying, sex abuser following him first in a car then on foot through the streets of the night...well, I don't think you'd see anyone putting forth that idea in the first place, so I can't finish that sentence. The continued flagellation of The Media meme is manipulative and empty to the extreme. Mr. Martin's minor faults have permeated everything, Zimmerman's upsetting darkness has not.
The media even changed his race from a minority into a white person, presumably so he could take advantage of the pro-white court system. Thanks, media!
Shock. The mainstream media is simplistic and likes to manufacture story lines for dramatic effect. Wouldn't many people of Latin American origin find it odd if someone said they were "colored". I'm in Barcelona right now. Heading to Croatia. In an area of the world where I'm the whitest person here I guarantee they don't see themselves as people of color. George Zimmerman, who seems a tad racist seems to self identify as white anyway.
I was addressing your point about the damage or lack thereof in Martin's autopsy. The article for the medical examiner was cited because it stated that he suffered 6 blows to the head, blows were not supported by the damage to Martin's hands. I'm not referring to the gunshot.
So again, how much damage should there have been on Martin's hands?
I did not cite the witness who testified he saw Martin on top because it's been linked before. I was unaware that this too was now conflicted and in doubt.
The expert witness who identified six separate impacts was a forensic pathologist paid by the defense. As OG already noted, the medical examiner said Zimmerman's injuries were consistent with a single blow to the face and a single impact on the concrete.
In response to how much damage should there have been on Martin's hands? I'm at work and on my phone so can't go look, but when this came up earlier in the thread the folks here who train striking arts seriously (definitely Paleocon, think there were others) stated they'd expect a lot more abrasions, possibly also some minor fractures, if an untrained fighter like Martin was delivering the kind of beatdown Zimmerman described. (This is why I'd mentioned again that Zimmerman's story was that Martin was on top of him and raining down punches - that's a much stronger claim than "we were grappling around and he got a couple of punches in" or "when I tried to grab the frightened kid he sucker-punched me and then I shot him").
With regard to your not knowing that there was doubt about whether Martin was on top, I'll repeat my earlier quote from your article.
The article you linked[/url]]Under cross-examination, DiMaio conceded that the gunshot could also be consistent with Martin pulling away from Zimmerman, and that he reached his conclusion without factoring in statements from some neighbors who say Zimmerman was on top of Martin.
I'm not a fan of bolding stuff like that, but it seems like you stopped reading that quote at the comma.
I found this. Quite a few things I didn’t know, actually. One that struck me:
One of the most important, and remarkably under-publicized facts that came out at trial is that one of the detectives, while interrogating Zimmerman at the police station that night, told him that the entire incident had been caught on surveillance video. The detective was bluffing, but Zimmerman didn’t know that. His reaction: “Thank God”.
That doesn't sound like someone who is trying to get away with killing someone.
Assuming that Zimmerman didn't already know that there wouldn't be surveillance cameras covering the place the shooting occurred, I agree that at the very least it does not sound like someone who felt they had killed someone without justification.
If white women wearing ponchos have been burglarizing your neighborhood and you see an individual matching that description, would that not grab your attention? That perhaps calling the police to investigate might not be in order?
There's actually a bunch of research and studies and personal anecdotes out there that suggest that actually, NO, one would not be suspicious in a situation like this.
George Zimmerman, who seems a tad racist seems to self identify as white anyway.
Oh, come on. The guy is registered to vote as a Hispanic, his family considers itself Hispanic. And I'd love to hear evidence of this racism that an FBI probe of like 30 people he knows failed to uncover.
Like, I get that there's a shared narrative here that plays into people's preconceptions, but simpy repeating baseless statements over and over doesn't make them true.
Yes, young, black males wearing hoodies. I've never disputed Zimmerman wasn't racially profiling. All anyone in the neighborhood had were very generalized descriptions of multiple suspects from multiple burglaries. So you're saying in the absence of detailed descriptions you just ignore anything or anyone that seems out of place?
How in the world was Martin out of place? He was walking home from the store. There was absolutely nothing he did that was out of place.
If white women wearing ponchos have been burglarizing your neighborhood and you see an individual matching that description, would that not grab your attention? That perhaps calling the police to investigate might not be in order?
Ponchos aren't common. Try "white women carrying a purse." Now, are we going to stop and question all white women with purses? No. Hoodies are very common. Are we going to stop all black kids wearing hoodies?
Which is why Zimmerman called the police, because he didn't recognize Martin and he matched the vague description of folks who had burglarized the area. He seemed, in Zimmerman's estimation, to be behaving oddly.
Dude, we always fit vague descriptions. It's always because some crime happened. And we always look like we're up to no good or on something. My bro can tell you from experience.
It's not a crime to be unknown while walking down the street.
Like, I get that there's a shared narrative here that plays into people's preconceptions, but simpy repeating baseless statements over and over doesn't make them true.
And yet... those defending Zimmerman continue to state Zimmerman's description of the events like repeated head into concrete pounding and Martin assailing him with several punches as fact... in spite of any evidence to back that up from Martin's autopsy report.
To me, the issue is that Zimmerman waved off going to the hospital. You were sustaining injuries that you felt threatened your life... but waved off the EMT? Riiiiiiiight.
So far as the studies have shown, profiling in any form does not seem to be more effective than random chance when you look at a profile used for police stops, or security screenings at airports.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/...
http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/...
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/articl...
This National Academy study has been the subject of much reflection.
And there is no shortage of court documents decrying the use of profiling as pretext to initiate a search.
Like, I get that there's a shared narrative here that plays into people's preconceptions, but simpy repeating baseless statements over and over doesn't make them true.
The irony of this statement is incredible.
I don't get it. Armed guy gets out of his car after following a guy walking home, ends up shooting him, and people are falling over backwards trying to justify the shooting?
First, if Zimmerman has slowed down to call 911, that's the perfect time to take off running. An in-shape teen is easily going to outdistance a guy who loves his Taco Bell fourth meals a little too much. Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?Don't bother, you will just have to explain it again in 14 pages.
First, Zimmerman was still overweight and out of shape at the time of the shooting, so my point still stands.
Secondly, I already posted a while back that Zimmerman's "MMA training" was light Taebo style kickboxing jazzercise. It wasn't combat training in any sense of the word.
First, if Zimmerman has slowed down to call 911, that's the perfect time to take off running. An in-shape teen is easily going to outdistance a guy who loves his Taco Bell fourth meals a little too much. Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?Don't bother, you will just have to explain it again in 14 pages.
First, Zimmerman was still overweight and out of shape at the time of the shooting, so my point still stands.
Secondly, I already posted a while back that Zimmerman's "MMA training" was light Taebo style kickboxing jazzercise. It wasn't combat training in any sense of the word.
I was wrong. It took 2 pages.
jdzappa wrote:First, if Zimmerman has slowed down to call 911, that's the perfect time to take off running. An in-shape teen is easily going to outdistance a guy who loves his Taco Bell fourth meals a little too much. Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?Don't bother, you will just have to explain it again in 14 pages.
First, Zimmerman was still overweight and out of shape at the time of the shooting, so my point still stands.
Secondly, I already posted a while back that Zimmerman's "MMA training" was light Taebo style kickboxing jazzercise. It wasn't combat training in any sense of the word.
I was wrong. It took 2 pages.
f*ck you. Seriously.
First, if Zimmerman has slowed down to call 911, that's the perfect time to take off running. An in-shape teen is easily going to outdistance a guy who loves his Taco Bell fourth meals a little too much. Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?Don't bother, you will just have to explain it again in 14 pages.
First, Zimmerman was still overweight and out of shape at the time of the shooting, so my point still stands.
Secondly, I already posted a while back that Zimmerman's "MMA training" was light Taebo style kickboxing jazzercise. It wasn't combat training in any sense of the word.
Victim blaming. Weird expectations to put on a 17 yr old kid.
I don't get it. Armed guy gets out of his car after following a guy walking home, ends up shooting him, and people are falling over backwards trying to justify the shooting?
There's a difference between pointing out that what people think happened are actually suppositions, and defending Zimmerman. I haven't seen anyone here doing what you're saying.
First, if Zimmerman has slowed down to call 911, that's the perfect time to take off running. An in-shape teen is easily going to outdistance a guy who loves his Taco Bell fourth meals a little too much. Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?Don't bother, you will just have to explain it again in 14 pages.
First, Zimmerman was still overweight and out of shape at the time of the shooting, so my point still stands.
Secondly, I already posted a while back that Zimmerman's "MMA training" was light Taebo style kickboxing jazzercise. It wasn't combat training in any sense of the word.
I don't think your point does still stand. He was not the fat guy everyone saw during the trial when he killed Martin. While he wasn't super fit, he was fit enough to run after Martin. One would imagine that Martin might have slowed down to a normal pace once he got to the walkway behind the houses, thinking he lost Zimmerman since the car that was following him couldn't follow, and that their confrontation started when Martin saw that Zimmerman was still following him.
This is Zimmerman the day after he killed Martin. Does he look too out of shape or overweight to possibly catch up to Martin?
There's a difference between pointing out that what people think happened are actually suppositions, and defending Zimmerman. I haven't seen anyone here doing what you're saying.
I guess we have to disagree on this then. I see a lot of it.
With regard to your not knowing that there was doubt about whether Martin was on top, I'll repeat my earlier quote from your article.
I'm not a fan of bolding stuff like that, but it seems like you stopped reading that quote at the comma.
It's hard to take the testimony of the two other neighbors as seriously, the ones with the different account didn't come out until after the shot was fired. They did not see the struggle in progress.
Good and Surdyka- Martin was on top (via clothing). Though Surdyka did get the number of shots she heard wrong.
Mora and Laurer- Zimmerman was on top, but did not witness the confrontation until after the shot was fired.
Ballotechnic wrote:If white women wearing ponchos have been burglarizing your neighborhood and you see an individual matching that description, would that not grab your attention? That perhaps calling the police to investigate might not be in order?
There's actually a bunch of research and studies and personal anecdotes out there that suggest that actually, NO, one would not be suspicious in a situation like this.
That's just sad. How much effort does it take to call the police? I think if you set that in a neighborhood however, rather than a park, the results might be different.
Yes, young, black males wearing hoodies. I've never disputed Zimmerman wasn't racially profiling. All anyone in the neighborhood had were very generalized descriptions of multiple suspects from multiple burglaries. So you're saying in the absence of detailed descriptions you just ignore anything or anyone that seems out of place?
Emmanuel Burgess had a couple of inches and 60 pounds on Martin. Even a "very generalized description" would note the difference between someone weighing a buck fifty, like Martin, and someone who looked like a linebacker, like Burgess. And apparently the description of Burgess that both Bertalan and Zimmerman gave police was good enough to get him arrested.
And I'm not saying that you ignore anything or anyone. What I'm saying is that what you don't do is immediately assume that 15% of the population of Sanford--every black male--is going to commit a crime like Zimmerman seemed to have done.
Which is why Zimmerman called the police, because he didn't recognize Martin and he matched the vague description of folks who had burglarized the area. He seemed, in Zimmerman's estimation, to be behaving oddly.
How many residents at The Retreat at Twin Lakes do you think Zimmerman could actually recognize on sight? What about all their family members and friends who would have every right to be there visiting, such as Martin himself? Considering that most of the 260 units had been turned into rentals over the preceding years I'm going to hazard a guess that Zimmerman couldn't recognize a lot of his neighbors.
Zimmerman called the police because Martin was a black male. And the odd behavior Zimmerman was concerned about was that Martin was a black male in his neighborhood at night.
Seriously, go back to Zimmerman's 911 call transcript and see how terribly off every one of Zimmerman's assumptions were. He assumed Martin was "up to no good" when he was simply walking back to his father's fiance's unit following a path all the residents used. He assumed Martin was "on drugs or something" and yet Martin's autopsy showed he wasn't under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time. He assumed Martin was "looking at the houses" when Martin was on his phone talking with his girlfriend. He assumed that "something was wrong" with Martin and that gave him all the justification he needed to stalk Martin.
In regards to Goodman's testimony. So we know Zimmerman received blows to the head. We also know that Goodman saw Martin "throwing down blows". But he didn't see them connect, or Zimmerman's head get slammed against the ground. How did Zimmerman receive the injuries then? Did he fight someone else along the way? Were they self inflicted?
We know Zimmerman got hit at least once. That's it. He might have received multiple blows, but there isn't any physical evidence that it happened.
You are also mixing up Good's statement to the police with his testimony. Good's statement to the police claimed that Martin was on top of Zimmerman "throwing down blows MMA style," but he walked his comments way, way back during his testimony. He walked his comments so far back that all he would agree to is that there was a "tussle" and Martin's arms were making "motions going down," but that could have been Martin struggling to hold Zimmerman down rather than beating him up.
And, again, we have to look at the physical evidence to see which version makes more sense. Considering the lack of injuries on Martin as well as Zimmerman, it's Good's original statement to police that appears bogus.
How did Zimmerman get his injuries? He got punched in the face by Martin who confronted him about being followed. Zimmerman fell after getting a good pop to the nose and hit his head on the concrete sidewalk. There's his injuries.
Again, no one here is claiming that Zimmerman hurt himself to justify the shooting. I'm really puzzled why you continue to bring it up.
Again, no one here is claiming that Zimmerman hurt himself to justify the shooting. I'm really puzzled why you continue to bring it up.
I do recall it being brought up as a possibility way back in the beginning of the thread. I haven't seen anyone suggesting it lately though.
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