Why is George Zimmerman allowed to roam free tonight?

Looking at the map that was posted a number of pages ago of where zimmerman's car was and where martin was killed there's just no other narrative that makes any sense for having Zimmerman get out of the car and go looking for martin who had run away from him, down what looks like a pedestrianised space between the buildings.
Unless you want to suggest one, Norman.

Duoae wrote:

Looking at the map that was posted a number of pages ago of where zimmerman's car was and where martin was killed there's just no other narrative that makes any sense for having Zimmerman get out of the car and go looking for martin who had run away from him, down what looks like a pedestrianised space between the buildings.
Unless you want to suggest one, Norman.

Ever watched Wrestlemania? Everyone knows that fights can cover huge areas.

Should I be embarrassed that I knew about that fight?

Edit for better video.

Duoae wrote:

Looking at the map that was posted a number of pages ago of where zimmerman's car was and where martin was killed there's just no other narrative that makes any sense for having Zimmerman get out of the car and go looking for martin who had run away from him, down what looks like a pedestrianised space between the buildings.
Unless you want to suggest one, Norman.

Added link because citations are always good practice.

I'm also curious to hear how Norman thinks Zimmerman thought that walking across the street, past the first row of houses to an adjoining street, then down a pedestrian walkway between two rows of houses is more consistent with double-checking an address than continuing to pursue Martin after the dispatcher advised him not to.

NormanTheIntern wrote:

Yikes, quite a zinger!

I will laughing at the irony of this comment for the rest of the day. Thank you.

NormanTheIntern wrote:
Baron Of Hell wrote:
NormanTheIntern wrote:

For the record there was no real evidence presented in court that Zimmerman actually followed Martin, let alone "chased" him as Tanglebones' poster states. He said he got out of the car to figure out exactly where he was because he thought he gave the police an incorrect address.

If he didn't follow him why is Martin dead? The fact that the kid is dead is proof that he followed him. Martin didn't break into his car and pull Zimmerman out.

I've seen this type of argument before in this thread, and no, just because (result) happened does not prove (specific narrative you want to be true), when there are any number of ways to reach the same result.

Are you going to respond to my post or any of the others?

Jayhawker wrote:
NormanTheIntern wrote:

Was following him in the car, Treyvon ran off, the dispatcher asked him to stop following, he got out to see exactly where he was, got jumped.

Consistent with the dispatcher call and Zimmerman's story, not at all consistent with the poster.

Classy edit too, just really great stuff there.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/video...

Convince me Zimmerman was following him in his car.

It's not convincing either way as there is no clear indication of whether or not the call is being made from inside the car or not.

What's more telling to me is the assumption that he's 'on drugs' or something.

Jayhawker wrote:
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah

In all fairness, the phrase 'chasing down' does conjure up images of Johnny Utah pursuing Bodhi through backyards and living rooms. And there isn't any indication of that in the 911 call.

Isn't it kind of pointless to rehash all of the evidence? We'll never know the real truth and Zimmerman got away with murder (or at least manslaughter).

It is also sad, to me, that the politicians are chasing the "Stand Your Ground" rabbit down the hole. That isn't what got Zimmerman off. Political pressure, inept police work, and racial prejudice are what freed him.

To explain the above statement, political pressure to charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter. Inept police work should be self explanatory, though I include the DA's original decision to not press charges in this. And that we all know this would have turned out completely differently if Martin had been another race.

I think it is sad that it doesn't seem that there will be any repercussions on the Sanford PD.

nel e nel wrote:

In all fairness, the phrase 'chasing down' does conjure up images of Johnny Utah pursuing Bodhi through backyards and living rooms. And there isn't any indication of that in the 911 call.

This kind of makes me wonder if we're going to see a made-for-tv movie based on this. I'd be inclined to say, "No, no one can be so stupid as to try and take that on," but I've been shocked before by what producers will do for some publicity.

The reason the dispatcher asks is that he can here the wind blowing in the mic as Zimmerman begins his pursuit. You can also here that Zimmerman continues despite the dispatcher telling him that it is unnecessary. Finally, when the dispatcher attempts to set up a spot to meet, Zimmerman avoids this.

If Zimmerman stays in his car and meets the police at the mailboxes as asked, Martin survives. But Zimmerman is worried that someone that has not committed a single crime is going to "get away." It is a much more logical leap to assume that Zimmerman continued looking for Martin than Zimmerman innocently checking his location.

Jayhawker wrote:

The reason the dispatcher asks is that he can here the wind blowing in the mic as Zimmerman begins his pursuit. You can also here that Zimmerman continues despite the dispatcher telling him that it is unnecessary. Finally, when the dispatcher attempts to set up a spot to meet, Zimmerman avoids this.

If Zimmerman stays in his car and meets the police at the mailboxes as asked, Martin survives. But Zimmerman is worried that someone that has not committed a single crime is going to "get away." It is a much more logical leap to assume that Zimmerman continued looking for Martin than Zimmerman innocently checking his location.

Unfortunately, hearing wind on the mic is evidence of....wind on the mic. It definitely lends credence to the argument that he was outside his car, however.

While the dispatcher does tell him it's not necessary to follow him, that does not confirm that Zimmerman continued to follow him. There is no way of knowing if Zimmerman was continuing to follow, or had stopped. The ending of the call where Zimmerman asks them to call them back to set up a place to meet suggests that, but does not confirm it outright.

I'm not defending Zimmerman, just trying to illustrate how one had to look at this stuff if you were a juror. At the end of the day, it was Zimmerman's word against Martin's. And Martin wasn't around to testify.

You guys have convinced me that from a moral standpoint, Zimmerman probably deserved to be punched in the nose or gotten a swift kick to the groin. Legally that would still be a gray area because from everything I've read, Zimmerman following Martin wasn't breaking Florida law. However, I can't condone Martin escalating things by knocking Zimmerman to the ground and then proceeding to pound his head into the concrete. In the hypothetical situation with the 90-pound woman facing off against a creeper, at that point she's pulled not a taser or pepper spray but rather a .357 magnum and cocked the trigger.

I also don't feel Martin showed due diligence in two key ways. First, if Zimmerman has slowed down to call 911, that's the perfect time to take off running. An in-shape teen is easily going to outdistance a guy who loves his Taco Bell fourth meals a little too much. Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?

jdzappa wrote:

You guys have convinced me that from a moral standpoint, Zimmerman probably deserved to be punched in the nose or gotten a swift kick to the groin. Legally that would still be a gray area because from everything I've read, Zimmerman following Martin wasn't breaking Florida law. However, I can't condone Martin escalating things by knocking Zimmerman to the ground and then proceeding to pound his head into the concrete. In the hypothetical situation with the 90-pound woman facing off against a creeper, at that point she's pulled not a taser or pepper spray but rather a .357 magnum and cocked the trigger.

I also don't feel Martin showed due diligence in two key ways. First, if Zimmerman has slowed down to call 911, that's the perfect time to take off running. An in-shape teen is easily going to outdistance a guy who loves his Taco Bell fourth meals a little too much. Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?

That's the rub: legally, this whole thing was a ginormous grey area. Morally/ethically, it was totally f*cked up, and basically doubled down on the 'if a black person is outside the ghetto, it's totally ok to try and detain them' line of thought.

jdzappa wrote:

However, I can't condone Martin escalating things by knocking Zimmerman to the ground and then proceeding to pound his head into the concrete.

Eyewitness testimony is conflicted on this point, as is the physical evidence. As noted above, and repeatedly in this thread, the autopsy report does not show the kind of injuries to Martin that would be expected if he'd been dishing out the kind of beating Zimmerman described.

It's certainly possible that things unfolded in the way that Zimmerman has said - that a kid, frightened by someone who had followed him in a vehicle, and continued the pursuit on foot, decided that since "flight" wasn't working that he'd try "fight".

I don't think that's the most likely scenario (and even if it did unfold that way, I'd argue that Zimmerman bears the moral responsibility for the outcome), but there's plenty of room for reasonable doubt - in fact, the shoddy police work the Sanford PD performed that night all but ensured it.

Due diligence is not the responsibility of the victim.

Dimmerswitch wrote:

I'm also curious to hear how Norman thinks Zimmerman thought that walking across the street, past the first row of houses to an adjoining street, then down a pedestrian walkway between two rows of houses is more consistent with double-checking an address than continuing to pursue Martin after the dispatcher advised him not to.

You're making a number of assumptions here without factual backup - anything from the idea that the fight happened entirely in that one spot to the idea that Zimmerman's movements would be totally rational at night and under stress. You're free to cast doubt on his story, but as I said, the evidence presented in the trial doesn't actually disprove it, so the story in that poster is essentially fictional in relation to the trial it's trying to make a statement about.

NormanTheIntern wrote:

Yikes, quite a zinger!

I will laughing at the irony of this comment for the rest of the day. Thank you. :D

It's high praise! From one pro to another, I honestly admired it.

jdzappa wrote:

You guys have convinced me that from a moral standpoint, Zimmerman probably deserved to be punched in the nose or gotten a swift kick to the groin. Legally that would still be a gray area because from everything I've read, Zimmerman following Martin wasn't breaking Florida law. However, I can't condone Martin escalating things by knocking Zimmerman to the ground and then proceeding to pound his head into the concrete. In the hypothetical situation with the 90-pound woman facing off against a creeper, at that point she's pulled not a taser or pepper spray but rather a .357 magnum and cocked the trigger.

I also don't feel Martin showed due diligence in two key ways. First, if Zimmerman has slowed down to call 911, that's the perfect time to take off running. An in-shape teen is easily going to outdistance a guy who loves his Taco Bell fourth meals a little too much. Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?

+1, especially the Taco Bell comment

DevilStick wrote:

+1, especially the Taco Bell comment :)

Neg! Fourthmeal is not a thing. Stop trying to make fourthmeal happen!

All of the sudden why does Martin need to run away and Zimmerman does not? That goes against the very sacred principles of Stand your Ground, and is kind of a p*ssy thing to do, which is why that law exists in the first place.

I find the whole senario very sad. After the verdict, I told my husband to remember this. Remember that kid. Why? Because that'll be his son or daughter one day. That'll be your brown kid walking down the street and having someone glare, follow, harass, call the cops, etc.

And how do I know this? Because that's exactly what's happened to me and my family. I know what it's like to be followed down the street, followed around a store, given nasty glares, told to "go back where I came from."

I remember when my brother was a young teen and he'd come home with tears in his eyes or shaking with anger because someone harassed him on the street again. Yelled racial slurs at him and his friends. Followed him down the street or told them to leave before they "caused trouble". Or cops followed him in a car demanded to know what him and his friend were doing, threatened to arrest him, etc. this didn't happen once or twice. This was his high school life.

And somehow, somehow we put the crazy expectation on these young kids to get away from danger or fight back properly and hope they don't get killed by some dude playing Batman. Every time. Every single time they get followed, harassed, stopped by cops, we expect kids to do the proper thing and survive.

Trayvon left the street to get away from the car that was following him. This is a smart thing to do as cars can't go through buildings. Zimmerman got out of the car to continued looking for the kid. Whatever Zimmerman says happened after that? I have no reason to believe him. He's no different than the strangers who'd follow my brother to make sure he wasn't "up to no good." Looking for trouble when there was none whatsoever and posing a threat to the person they're following. That kid shouldn't be dead.

jdzappa wrote:

I also don't feel Martin showed due diligence in two key ways. First, if Zimmerman has slowed down to call 911, that's the perfect time to take off running. An in-shape teen is easily going to outdistance a guy who loves his Taco Bell fourth meals a little too much. Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?

"Why didnt he run away?"

He did.

"Well, why didn't he run faster?"

KingGorilla wrote:

All of the sudden why does Martin need to run away and Zimmerman does not? That goes against the very sacred principles of Stand your Ground, and is kind of a p*ssy thing to do, which is why that law exists in the first place.

Zimmerman would have had to be threatening Martin with deadly force to give Martin a Stand Your Ground type defense.

So, if Zimmerman had his gun drawn and pointed at Martin while following Martin, then Martin likely would have had a Stand Your Ground type defense, and himself could have used deadly force in self defense.

So now Martin didn't run away?

NormanTheIntern wrote:
Dimmerswitch wrote:

I'm also curious to hear how Norman thinks Zimmerman thought that walking across the street, past the first row of houses to an adjoining street, then down a pedestrian walkway between two rows of houses is more consistent with double-checking an address than continuing to pursue Martin after the dispatcher advised him not to.

You're making a number of assumptions here without factual backup - anything from the idea that the fight happened entirely in that one spot to the idea that Zimmerman's movements would be totally rational at night and under stress. You're free to cast doubt on his story, but as I said, the evidence presented in the trial doesn't actually disprove it, so the story in that poster is essentially fictional in relation to the trial it's trying to make a statement about.

Actually, the only assumption here is yours.

NormanTheIntern wrote:

Was following him in the car, Treyvon ran off, the dispatcher asked him to stop following, he got out to see exactly where he was, got jumped.

Consistent with the dispatcher call and Zimmerman's story, not at all consistent with the poster.

Your hypothetical may be consistent with Zimmerman's story. I disagree about whether it's consistent with the dispatcher call, but if you're putting forward a possible sequence of events to underline your criticism of the poster's scenario that imaginary-daughter-killing-Zimmerman continued to pursue the daughter after exiting his vehicle, I think you need to be willing to more substantively address how actual-killing-Zimmerman could have ended up in the location the fight occurred if he was not continuing his pursuit.

Mystic Violet wrote:

"Why didnt he run away?"

He did.

"Well, why didn't he run faster?"

From this page, it seems Martin had in fact lost Zimmernan, but decided to turn back and take the fight to Zimmerman. At least, that's Zimmerman's version of the story.

jdzappa wrote:

Secondly, why the hell didn't Martin call 911 himself?

As Mystic Violet said, if you have a history of being harassed by the police just for being black, you aren't likely to call them for help, particularly for something as potentially benign as being followed by a creepy old guy. Also, it's possible Martin knew Zimmerman was already on the phone with 911. If he first approached the car, what prompted him to run may have been hearing Zimmerman talking on the phone about him. At that point it's obvious that Zimmerman is following him and not just lost or something.

KingGorilla wrote:

All of the sudden why does Martin need to run away and Zimmerman does not? That goes against the very sacred principles of Stand your Ground, and is kind of a p*ssy thing to do, which is why that law exists in the first place.

I may be misunderstanding, but Stand Your Ground exists to allow the use of overwhelming force in self defense when retreat is not an option. That's why that lady is on trial for firing "warning shots" -- she went back to her car to get the gun, which proves that she was able to flee the confrontation. I don't know what to say about the idea that someone might not avoid a fight for fear of being called a "p*ssy," but that is certainly not the purpose of SYG.

DevilStick wrote:
Mystic Violet wrote:

"Why didnt he run away?"

He did.

"Well, why didn't he run faster?"

From this page, it seems Martin had in fact lost Zimmernan, but decided to turn back and take the fight to Zimmerman. At least, that's Zimmerman's version of the story.

That's where the story loses me.

NormanTheIntern wrote:

He said he got out of the car to figure out exactly where he was because he thought he gave the police an incorrect address.

Your assertion isn't supported by the transcript, Norman. He told the police dispatcher to have the responding unit meet him at the mailboxes at the community's clubhouse and then changed his mind and asked that the responding unit call him once they arrived.

It's a bit ludicrous to believe that Zimmerman, a member of the Neighborhood Watch, didn't know where he was. Especially when Zimmerman's truck was on the main road that led out of the gated community and he was literally 200 feet from the clubhouse. And that clubhouse? It was just 200 feet from the main gate and one of the first things anyone would see when they entered.

SixteenBlue wrote:
DevilStick wrote:
Mystic Violet wrote:

"Why didnt he run away?"

He did.

"Well, why didn't he run faster?"

From this page, it seems Martin had in fact lost Zimmernan, but decided to turn back and take the fight to Zimmerman. At least, that's Zimmerman's version of the story.

That's where the story loses me.

Yup. Gotta explain how Zimmerman ended up where the fight actually took place. The fight didn't occur on the street or near his car.

- The street - Here

- Trayvon turning around and attacking him or jumping from the bushes --------> Over there.

Just noting that The Fresh Prince dealt with a less serious version of this a couple of decades ago.

DevilStick wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

All of the sudden why does Martin need to run away and Zimmerman does not? That goes against the very sacred principles of Stand your Ground, and is kind of a p*ssy thing to do, which is why that law exists in the first place.

Zimmerman would have had to be threatening Martin with deadly force to give Martin a Stand Your Ground type defense.

So, if Zimmerman had his gun drawn and pointed at Martin while following Martin, then Martin likely would have had a Stand Your Ground type defense, and himself could have used deadly force in self defense.

Yet you are comfortable with Zimmerman killing an unarmed teen. That is fascinating.

Jayhawker wrote:
DevilStick wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

All of the sudden why does Martin need to run away and Zimmerman does not? That goes against the very sacred principles of Stand your Ground, and is kind of a p*ssy thing to do, which is why that law exists in the first place.

Zimmerman would have had to be threatening Martin with deadly force to give Martin a Stand Your Ground type defense.

So, if Zimmerman had his gun drawn and pointed at Martin while following Martin, then Martin likely would have had a Stand Your Ground type defense, and himself could have used deadly force in self defense.

Yet you are comfortable with Zimmerman killing an unarmed teen. That is fascinating.

Correcting someone's understanding of "Stand Your Ground" does not equate to being comfortable with someone's death. Perhaps you should read this post of mine.

Actually, it depends on whose sequence of events you believe.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/23/justic...

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/3...

Because Martin was on the phone but either the phone was dropped or he hung up, at the same time of the 911 call. Who attacked whom, unfortunately is not much of an issue in this case. It would be in traditional self defense, however. Stand your ground allows the provocation of an attack, and then a claim of self defense. Neither one of these people had a duty to stop or retreat, no matter how the altercation started. But I suppose that we can add in that Stand your Ground now also allows harassment and stalking, which is just great.