Why is George Zimmerman allowed to roam free tonight?

Tanglebones wrote:

IMAGE(http://24.media.tumblr.com/7ccb19d9adca06c7fdf09a3e22f2f1f4/tumblr_mqed4n9CGf1sr6ohxo1_500.png)

That's pretty much what I've been trying to say the whole time.

I'm sure there are plenty of women out who have been in that same situation, tried to get away or fight back, failed and the result was terrible. And then those women or their families (if she was killed) had to listen to others throw them under a bus as they explain the proper clothing to wear, the proper way to fight back or the proper path to take while running away.

I guess if the guy that's following her ends up losing, she's screwed anyway.

Ballotechnic wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

And that's a terrible situation and travesty of justice. But that's not what happened here.

But it does pull at the old heart strings and try to continue to make this an emotional argument rather than one based on evidence.

No, it's not what happened here, though the only difference is the gender of the dead child.

Ballotechnic wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

IMAGE(http://24.media.tumblr.com/7ccb19d9adca06c7fdf09a3e22f2f1f4/tumblr_mqed4n9CGf1sr6ohxo1_500.png)

And that's a terrible situation and travesty of justice. But that's not what happened here.

But it does pull at the old heart strings and try to continue to make this an emotional argument rather than one based on evidence.

How is it different?

NathanialG wrote:
Ballotechnic wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

IMAGE(http://24.media.tumblr.com/7ccb19d9adca06c7fdf09a3e22f2f1f4/tumblr_mqed4n9CGf1sr6ohxo1_500.png)

And that's a terrible situation and travesty of justice. But that's not what happened here.

But it does pull at the old heart strings and try to continue to make this an emotional argument rather than one based on evidence.

How is it different?

Yah, I am trying to figure out that as well. Seems basically exactly what happened (minus the context of the robberies, which Martin was not involved in).

Atras wrote:

Bill Maher had a great point on his show, regarding Zimmerman's fear for his life now that the case was over and he is a free man: he is afraid that an innocent person might be assumed to be guilty and now some crazy vigilante might take it upon themselves to catch or punish the "obviously guilty" man... That must suck.

It wasn't so much a point as it was Maher making an ironic punchline out of Zimmerman being afraid of vigilante justice.

NathanialG wrote:
Ballotechnic wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

IMAGE(http://24.media.tumblr.com/7ccb19d9adca06c7fdf09a3e22f2f1f4/tumblr_mqed4n9CGf1sr6ohxo1_500.png)

And that's a terrible situation and travesty of justice. But that's not what happened here.

But it does pull at the old heart strings and try to continue to make this an emotional argument rather than one based on evidence.

How is it different?

1. Von Martin wasn't randomly followed home for some nefarious reason. He fit the profile of individual/s who had had burglarized the neighborhood on multiple occasions prior to the confrontation with Zimmerman.

2. Zimmerman called the police to report Von Martin's activity. Did the attacker in this scenario do that?

3. Zimmerman didn't chase Martin down, he followed him. "Chasing down" is deliberately misleading.

4, Zimmerman was prompted by the dispatcher to keep an eye on him until police arrived. See pg 2 of 911 transcript http://www.documentcloud.org/documen....

5. At some point Von Martin turned back and confronted the attacker, gained the upper hand, broke Zimmerman's, nose and proceeded to pound his head into the ground. Per Zimmerman's and eyewitness testimony.

6.The subtext of this message is "imagine that your daughter is going to be sexually assaulted" which is deliberately manipulative and misleading.

If anyone really believes these are equivalent scenarios, so be it. Folks across the inter webs can keep throwing up false equivalencies, but I'm really only concerned about the facts of this case, as best we know them and that the jury deliberated.

I like calling him Von Martin. Makes Trayvon sound Prussian!

Your grasp of the facts of the case might carry more weight if you know the victim's name.

Seth wrote:

I like calling him Von Martin. Makes Trayvon sound Prussian!

I wasn't sure which was the proper usage and that I might be mistakenly using his last name.

Ballotechnic wrote:

And that's a terrible situation and travesty of justice. But that's not what happened here.

But it does pull at the old heart strings and try to continue to make this an emotional argument rather than one based on evidence.

I'd be very interested in hearing what meaningful differences you feel there are between that synopsis and what happened between Martin and Zimmerman.

For the record, though I think it is very likely that Zimmerman is (morally) responsible for Martin's death, I do think that a "not guilty" verdict was the correct finding, from what I've read of Florida's laws and the testimony from the trial. I don't see anything that proved guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and lay the blame for this squarely at the feet of the Sanford PD.

Me, upthread (more than once) wrote:

The shoddy police work by the Sanford PD the night of the shooting may mean we never know the actual sequence of events that night, but even in Zimmerman's version of events he pursued a teenager who was armed with nothing stronger than a pack of Skittles, ignored the dispatcher telling him to cease pursuit, and left his vehicle (with a gun) to chase down the teen on foot.

NathanialG wrote:
Ballotechnic wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

IMAGE(http://24.media.tumblr.com/7ccb19d9adca06c7fdf09a3e22f2f1f4/tumblr_mqed4n9CGf1sr6ohxo1_500.png)

And that's a terrible situation and travesty of justice. But that's not what happened here.

But it does pull at the old heart strings and try to continue to make this an emotional argument rather than one based on evidence.

How is it different?

It is the severity of the "retaliation" that makes it different from the Trayvon Martin case. If the girl who knees the stalker then proceeds to start slamming the pervert's head into the ground, then the pervert can claim self-defense. Since the girl is dead, and there are no witnesses (other than the stalker), there exists a reasonable doubt. If there isn't any immediate follow-up to the death (like taking the shooter into custody), then just about any story could be true. Still doesn't make the girl not dead, or the girl not a victim or the whole situation right, but that makes it a lot closer to what happened.

Bill Maher had a great, ironic punchline on his show, regarding Zimmerman's fear for his life now that the case was over and he is a free man: he is afraid that an innocent person might be assumed to be guilty and now some crazy vigilante might take it upon themselves to catch or punish the "obviously guilty" man... That must suck.

Atras wrote:

he is afraid that an innocent person might be assumed to be guilty and now some crazy vigilante might take it upon themselves to catch or punish the "obviously guilty" man... That must suck.

That's how Trayvon Martin felt every day. And he died because of it.

Edit: Jut saw the edit

Ballotechnic wrote:

4, Zimmerman was prompted by the dispatcher to keep an eye on him until police arrived. See pg 2 of 911 transcript http://www.documentcloud.org/documen....

Wat.

From the highlighted part of the article you linked:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Sorry, your #4 is wrong. He was not prompted by the dispatcher to "keep an eye on Martin until police arrived".

I'm assuming you mean this exchange:

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.

But you'll note that this occurs before the dispatcher says he doesn't need to follow Martin, and at this point the dispatcher is worried Martin might be approaching Zimmerman with a weapon.

However, I agree that your #5 is what makes the examples different. If that's what happened to Zimmerman.

SixteenBlue wrote:
Atras wrote:

he is afraid that an innocent person might be assumed to be guilty and now some crazy vigilante might take it upon themselves to catch or punish the "obviously guilty" man... That must suck.

That's how Trayvon Martinblack men feltfeel every day. And he died because of it.

It sounds like I fixed that for you.

Ballotechnic wrote:

4, Zimmerman was prompted by the dispatcher to keep an eye on him until police arrived. See pg 2 of 911 transcript http://www.documentcloud.org/documen....

The Transcript wrote:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

[edit] Too slow!

Atras wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
Atras wrote:

he is afraid that an innocent person might be assumed to be guilty and now some crazy vigilante might take it upon themselves to catch or punish the "obviously guilty" man... That must suck.

That's how Trayvon Martinblack men feltfeel every day. And he died because of it.

It sounds like I fixed that for you.

Yup. Tone is hard to read on the internet sometimes.

Appreciate you taking time to elaborate, Ballotechnic.

Ballotechnic wrote:

5. At some point Von Martin turned back and confronted the attacker, gained the upper hand, broke Zimmerman's, nose and proceeded to pound his head into the ground. Per Zimmerman's and eyewitness testimony.

This is the one meaningful difference on your list I would agree with, if that is in fact what happened (setting aside naming issues). The eyewitness testimony is conflicted, though, and there are elements of the physical evidence which are real problems for Zimmerman's story. At the risk of repeating myself, the autopsy report revealed a single abrasion, no more than a quarter inch long, on his ring finger. (Full report here as a PDF).

This is not consistent with the kind of beatdown Zimmerman has described.

The funeral director described Trayvon's body as "pristine", and said there were no scrapes, bruises, or other injuries that required covering up.

This is also not consistent with the kind of beatdown Zimmerman has described.

Zimmerman also has a history of violence, and was caught lying to the judge in his case.

That said, from what I've followed of the case, I think the prosecution didn't clear the bar even for manslaughter, but being found "not guilty" is definitely different than being shown to be innocent, and I think Tanglebones' image was not an unfair comparison.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Sorry, your #4 is wrong. He was not prompted by the dispatcher to keep an eye on Martin until police arrived.

According to the transcript, and assuming within reasonable limits, that's exactly what the dispatcher implies.

Dispatcher
Just let me know if he does anything, ok?

Zimmerman
(unclear) See if you can get an officer over here.

Dispatcher
Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Until

Dispatcher
Are you following him?

Zimmerman
Yeah.

Dispatcher
Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman
Ok.

For context, the dispatcher asked to be told if Martin did anything when Martin was approaching Zimmerman's car. Once Martin turned and ran, the dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow him.

It's what you're inferring; I can't see how the dispatcher is implying it.

Seth wrote:

I like calling him Von Martin. Makes Trayvon sound Prussian!

Tray von Martin smoked dope, got in fights, had crappy grades, and oh yeah, he helped kill, like, a bunch of people during World War II.

It is kinda funny how reports that Mr Martin was in trouble at school and had smoked pot are widely known, but Zimmerman's restraining order, history of violence, and allegations that he was sexually abusive aren't. You know, funny in the "I want to punch something" sense. The not funny at all kind.

Dimmerswitch wrote:

Appreciate you taking time to elaborate, Ballotechnic.

Ballotechnic wrote:

5. At some point Von Martin turned back and confronted the attacker, gained the upper hand, broke Zimmerman's, nose and proceeded to pound his head into the ground. Per Zimmerman's and eyewitness testimony.

This is the one meaningful difference on your list I would agree with, if that is in fact what happened (setting aside naming issues). The eyewitness testimony is conflicted, though, and there are elements of the physical evidence which are real problems for Zimmerman's story. At the risk of repeating myself, the autopsy report revealed a single abrasion, no more than a quarter inch long, on his ring finger. (Full report here as a PDF).

This is not consistent with the kind of beatdown Zimmerman has described.

The funeral director described Trayvon's body as "pristine", and said there were no scrapes, bruises, or other injuries that required covering up.

This is also not consistent with the kind of beatdown Zimmerman has described.

Zimmerman also has a history of violence, and was caught lying to the judge in his case.

That said, from what I've followed of the case, I think the prosecution didn't clear the bar even for manslaughter, but being found "not guilty" is definitely different than being shown to be innocent, and I think Tanglebones' image was not an unfair comparison.

I too think Zimmerman is far from innocent, in fact he is largely responsible for taking a life unnecessarily. All I ever wanted to see in this case is a fair trial based on evidence rather than emotion.

But I do think the image is manipulative because the scenarios are different in the significant ways I addressed.

Ballotechnic wrote:

But I do think the image is manipulative because the scenarios are different in the significant ways I addressed.

I'll say it was less manipulative than leaving out the previous dialogue in the transcript you posted.

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. …
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring…
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK…
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.
Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. sh*t he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…f*cking [unintelligible]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
Jayhawker wrote:
Ballotechnic wrote:

But I do think the image is manipulative because the scenarios are different in the significant ways I addressed.

I'll say it was less manipulative than leaving out the previous dialogue in the transcript you posted.

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. …
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring…
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK…
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.
Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. sh*t he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…f*cking [unintelligible]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok

You mean the same transcript I linked a few pages ago? How is focusing on the relevant part of the dispatch transcripit, regarding whether he was instructed to watch Martin, manipulative on my part? Is it necessary to link the whole transcript every time it's referenced?

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

It is kinda funny how reports that Mr Martin was in trouble at school and had smoked pot are widely known, but Zimmerman's restraining order, history of violence, and allegations that he was sexually abusive aren't. You know, funny in the "I want to punch something" sense. The not funny at all kind.

Unless you google "Zimmerman history of violence".

Quintin_Stone wrote:

It's what you're inferring; I can't see how the dispatcher is implying it.

I see what you're saying and perhaps you're right, but how else other than keeping an eye on him is Zimmerman going to "let them (the dispatcher) know if he does anything"?

Ballotechnic wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

It's what you're inferring; I can't see how the dispatcher is implying it.

I see what you're say and perhaps you're right, but how else other than keeping an eye on him is Zimmerman going to "let them (the dispatcher) know if he does anything"?

That's before Martin runs, and before the dispatcher tells Zimmerman he doesn't need to follow.

Ballotechnic wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

It is kinda funny how reports that Mr Martin was in trouble at school and had smoked pot are widely known, but Zimmerman's restraining order, history of violence, and allegations that he was sexually abusive aren't. You know, funny in the "I want to punch something" sense. The not funny at all kind.

Unless you google "Zimmerman history of violence".

Quintin_Stone wrote:

It's what you're inferring; I can't see how the dispatcher is implying it.

I see what you're saying and perhaps you're right, but how else other than keeping an eye on him is Zimmerman going to "let them (the dispatcher) know if he does anything"?

They only wanted to know if Martin did anything when Zimmerman claimed Martin was coming towards him. Taken as a whole, the dispatcher repeatedly dismissed Zimmerman's concerns.

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring…
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK…
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.

I read it, and heard it for that matter, as the dispatcher rolling eyes to every Zimmerman comment. Zimmerman had to tell him twice that Martin was coming towards him before the dispatcher asked to told if Martin did anything.

And Zimmerman still had to run after Martin before a showdown could take place.

If a stranger chases me in a neighborhood, I might feel like I need to take the fight to him instead of running. And if a woman would have taken the fight to him, no one would have blamed her. It was only when a black male does it that allowed Zimmerman to play the victim card in an event he created and antagonized further.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

It is kinda funny how reports that Mr Martin was in trouble at school and had smoked pot are widely known, but Zimmerman's restraining order, history of violence, and allegations that he was sexually abusive aren't. You know, funny in the "I want to punch something" sense. The not funny at all kind.

I most like the part that Zimmerman knew about Martin's pot smoking (a sure sign of coming violence), school trouble and general "badness", and was therefor totally in the right to follow him in the first place. After all, if some African-Americans are breaking into places, it only follows logically that they all are up to no good. But he (Zimmerman) is not racist.