Why is George Zimmerman allowed to roam free tonight?

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In late February, George Zimmerman was patrolling the streets of his gate community when we happened to see Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old teenager, walking down the street. Zimmerman though Trayvon was acting suspiciously and called 911. The dispatcher wanted to know what was suspicious about Trayvon and Zimmerman said he was walking and looking around. The dispatcher told Zimmerman the police were being sent, but that he should stay in his car.

Minutes later, Zimmerman had killed Trayvon by putting a 9mm bullet into his chest.

And, right now, Zimmerman has not had any charged filed against him and is driving around in his gated community looking for more Trayvon Martins.

If you haven't hear this story, it is horrific, and has everyone asking, "Why is George Zimmerman allowed to roam free tonight?"

This link has a great run down on the points that need to be considered, but the take away is this:

George Zimmerman is obsessed with his position at a community watch captain and has called 911 over 40 times in the past 14 months to report suspicious things. He was in an SUV following Trayvon and had a gun. Trayvon had been to the local convenience store and was going back to the house of his father's fiance. Trayvon was carrying 1) a bag of Skittles, 2) a cellphone, and 3) a canned beverage. No one knows what made Zimmerman think Trayvon was suspicious, except for possibly two things: Trayvon was African American and was wearing a hoodie.

Subsequent to all of this, the Sanford, FL police department say they don't have cause to arrest Zimmerman, despite the 911 tapes, the eyewitness accounts, and the fact that Zimmerman had been told not to leave his vehicle. The Sanford police are also begging the state and the feds to come in and take over so they can get rid of this mess because pressure is mounting and they don't want to take the heat. They also say they can't do anything because Zimmerman claims it was self defense.

In fact, it looks like the Sanford police want to try to escape the scrutiny they are receiving because, for three days, Trayvon's body was in a morgue with a "John Doe" tag, despite the fact that the policy were in custody of Trayvon's cell phone, which was ringing incessantly as Trayvon's father was trying to find his son. The Sanford police never answered the phone nor tried to dial a number on the phone to find out who "John Doe" was.

So, tonight, a young man, described “as an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness" is dead, and the man who killed him is roaming free.

By the way, Zimmerman is not African-American.

If the roles were reversed and Zimmerman was the person shot dead and Trayvon was the shooter, is there anyone here who thinks that Trayvon wouldn't be in a jail cell somewhere?

Yeah, I saw that several days ago, and it infuriates me. Why the f*ck hasn't that guy been arrested yet?

It makes me sad to think that race was such a major part in this, and many cases like it all over the country. There is so much evidence against this guy it's ridiculous.

The 911 tapes that have been released are pretty tragic. In the first 90 seconds of Zimmerman's 911 call he told the police that Martin was high, up to no good, then that Martin was "checking him out", that Martin had his hands in his pockets and that was suspicious and/or threatening, and then lamented that "those assholes always get away."

The other 911 calls from the residents all say pretty much the same thing: Martin repeated screamed for help and then he was shot once. In one call, about six minutes in, you can actually hear Martin shouting for help until the gunshot.

I've read some articles that said that the gated community got hit by the housing crisis and that white homeowners were replaced by blacks and Hispanics who rented. This, of course, pissed off some people...likely Zimmerman.

It's horrible. Zimmerman should be in jail. The law should not create the assumption that a killing is justified, in the presence of evidence to the contrary.

Is there something I'm missing about the law here? There isn't even reasonable suspicion for arrest and interview? To take this man's gun and match the round they dug out if this child's chest to it?

Apart from everything else, and as an immediate response, I think the event should be a sentinel event for parents to never let their children outside after dark alone, even in supposed gated communities in Florida. The fact that a curfew is necessary to avoid getting your kids gunned down in the streets should be suggestive of the kind of effect Stand Your Ground law has on public safety.

Zimmerman claims Martin attacked him and he fired his gun in self-defense. And Florida's "Stand Your Ground" self-defense laws offer a great deal of leeway on this front.

I wanted to post about this. Frankly, i'm willing to leave race aside for a moment (even though it's a major cog in the story), because there's not a situation where Zimmerman A.) Shouldn't have been at least arrested and B.) The Sanford PD deserves to have all the opprobrium on earth heaped on it for the horrendous way they've investigated (or, really, not investigated) this. From the way they covered the crime scene, to their apparent "manipulation" of witness statements, to not testing Zimmerman at all for drugs or alcohol, they've been terrible. Skin color aside, Zimmerman shouldn't just be taken at his word over this, especially the way this has shaken out so far.

This is, of course, a wonderful example of what foments distrust of law enforcement in some communities. The notion that even when there is more than fair evidence that a member of their ranks may have done something wrong, that they'll close ranks and put up the "blue code of silence".

It's a horrendous story, but it is going to be hard to get Zimmerman for anything criminal from what I understand, due to Florida's self-defense laws.

EDIT: Also, props to Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee for this -

"Our investigation is color blind and based on the facts and circumstances, not color. I know I can say that until I am blue in the face, but, as a white man in a uniform, I know it doesn't mean anything to anybody."

This is precisely the sort of crap that happens when you don't have an obligation to retreat.

Had this happened in a rational state like Maryland, the neighborhood watch person would 1) not be armed, 2) would be restricted only to his ability to observe and report, and 3) if faced with the threat of violence would have an obligation to retreat to a position of safety if practicable.

I'm a big fan of guns. Guns are fun. But this sort of crap really drives home to me the fact that some states have some really f*ed up "self defense" laws.

Prederick wrote:

Zimmerman claims Martin attacked him and he fired his gun in self-defense. And Florida's "Stand Your Ground" self-defense laws offer a great deal of leeway on this front.

It depends on the presumptions involved. Typically self-defense is something you have to prove at trial. If you can't meet that burden, you're guilty. Here it sounds like the da has to show it wasn't self-defense, which is just weird. But this is Florida, so....

So in Florida if I stalk, confront, and then kill someone I can say I felt threatened and claim self-defense?
Fantastic!

The obvious solution is for parents of minority teenagers to provide guns and training to their children. For when they feel threatened.

I realize that the above was meant in parody, but I think that the possibility of full-on race war is a little too close to be bandying the idea about, even in jest. Let's just keep that last one here, to ourselves, I hope. Never know when some whack job might take that seriously.

More on why Florida's "stand your ground" law is total bullfeces.

Rezzy wrote:

So in Florida if I stalk, confront, and then kill someone I can say I felt threatened and claim self-defense?
Fantastic!

The obvious solution is for parents of minority teenagers to provide guns and training to their children. For when they feel threatened.

A minority with a handgun is, by statute, presumed to be a gangbanger under Florida law.

(Okay, I made that up. But this is Florida, so it's probably something worth looking up to make sure).

Rezzy wrote:

So in Florida if I stalk, confront, and then kill someone I can say I felt threatened and claim self-defense?
Fantastic!

The obvious solution is for parents of minority teenagers to provide guns and training to their children. For when they feel threatened.

Yep. I'm pretty sure there are minority teens all over Florida that would feel threatened by George Zimmerman walking down any sidewalk.

Isn't there a difference between stand your ground and follow him whilst armed?

In any event, I can't see how a potential defence prevents an investigation into a crime of this magnitude. He should be arrested and interviewed before it is decided that there is an ironclad defence.

spider_j wrote:

Isn't there a difference between stand your ground and follow him whilst armed?

In any event, I can't see how a potential defence prevents an investigation into a crime of this magnitude. He should be arrested and interviewed before it is decided that there is an ironclad defence.

You would think so, but it is Florida.

I certainly think that the Florida State Attorney and Justice Department ought to be considering investigations into the police department itself.

If this falls under Florida self-defence laws I'd like to know under what circumstances the premeditated stalking, apprehension, and killing of another person _isn't_ premeditated murder.

If you look at the relative sizes of the two men (okay, one man, one youth), I don't see how anyone could reasonably claim self-defence. Zimmerman was about twice the size of Martin.

Based on my understanding, you are always arrested after a shooting, justified or no. Until the police can verify the claims of the survivor, it is still a crime that needs investigating. I don't see how this guy doesn't get arrested for manslaughter or at least assault. The whole thing makes my head hurt.

From what I'm reading about the law in Florida, it's entirely at police discretion as to whether or not the perpetrator should be arrested.

My wife has relatives in Florida. We'd always thought about visiting, but knowing that the law allows any entitled nutjob with a legally-acquired gun to shoot me or my family for "lookin' funny" and the police can choose to do nothing about it? I'm mentally categorizing that as the same risk as travelling to Tehran. No civilized democracy gives those kinds of judicial powers to an enforcement bureau.

Wouldn't it be killed? The lawfulness of the killing is not for the police to decide, right?

Fair enough.

Nevin's correct, at least in my part of the country.

Even if it legitimately was self defense (and it sounds like it in no way was), you can't use that as a defense from getting arrested. If you kill a man, you get brought in. Even if it turns out you were completely in the right and saved a busload of orphaned nuns by killing him, that's not for the police to decide. All they know is that you murdered someone.

Maq wrote:

If this falls under Florida self-defence laws I'd like to know under what circumstances the premeditated stalking, apprehension, and killing of another person _isn't_ premeditated murder.

To play devil's advocate, I think the difference is that Zimmerman supposedly did not know Martin before this point. He couldn't have planned to murder Martin if they just met. Now if he did know Martin and brought that gun with him specifically to kill Martin, that would be a different story.

LobsterMobster wrote:
Maq wrote:

If this falls under Florida self-defence laws I'd like to know under what circumstances the premeditated stalking, apprehension, and killing of another person _isn't_ premeditated murder.

To play devil's advocate, I think the difference is that Zimmerman supposedly did not know Martin before this point. He couldn't have planned to murder Martin if they just met. Now if he did know Martin and brought that gun with him specifically to kill Martin, that would be a different story.

Murder doesn't require that you know the person beforehand, merely that you've had a moment before the killing to decide to do it.

Governor Rick Scott has ordered the State Police to investigate the shooting, and the DoJ and FBI are also investigating as of last night.

Seriously. This whole "stand your ground" gun law business is precisely what empowers nutjobs like this.

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