So Long, My Wii — Now Playing: ?

SixteenBlue wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:

Y'know... I think I totally don't like DKCR. Color me. surprised. I can appreciate the craft on display but it retains the core issues from the SNES games.

Go on...

Yeah, I'm drawing a blank as to what that issue is.

SixteenBlue wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:

Y'know... I think I totally don't like DKCR. Color me. surprised. I can appreciate the craft on display but it retains the core issues from the SNES games.

Go on...

My laptop's busted and I don't wanna type five paragraphs on my phone :/

Short version: DK as a concept doesn't do anything for me, the motion mechanics are annoying. I played the first 7 or so levels and feel lik I would rather just listen to the soundtrack. Handling is floaty, too.

I never liked the DKC games. The platforming never clicked with me.

Blind_Evil wrote:

Handling is floaty, too.

Although I loved all the games, Wii included, I will agree with this assessment for the newest iteration. My main source of frustration was that the rocket/float control was mapped to trigger after jump was held down for a certain amount of time. I would have much preferred a double-tap of the jump button. Since the jump button was already sensitive to time (how long you hold it down is how high you jump), I found myself often triggering the rocket and slowing myself down in the bonus stages and other areas where speed is critical, just because I was trying to get the maximum height out of my jump. It made world 8 pretty awful.

I'm just going to wait to hear about issues with the SNES games, because I just find those games to be magical. Hell, DKC2 might even be a better platformer than any of the side-scrolling 2D Mario games (YEAH THAT'S RIGHT I SAID IT)

Minarchist wrote:

My main source of frustration was that the rocket/float control was mapped to trigger after jump was held down for a certain amount of time. I would have much preferred a double-tap of the jump button.

Is it? I was using a double-tap to trigger the rocket when I played. The next time I fire the game up, I'll have to experiment to see how it works with the Wiimote-only controls.

Minarchist wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:

Handling is floaty, too.

Although I loved all the games, Wii included, I will agree with this assessment for the newest iteration. My main source of frustration was that the rocket/float control was mapped to trigger after jump was held down for a certain amount of time. I would have much preferred a double-tap of the jump button. Since the jump button was already sensitive to time (how long you hold it down is how high you jump), I found myself often triggering the rocket and slowing myself down in the bonus stages and other areas where speed is critical, just because I was trying to get the maximum height out of my jump. It made world 8 pretty awful.

I remember playing DKCR a lot and then switching to NSMB and immediately noticing how incredibly loose and awful the controls were compared to DKCR. I'd kind of like to do a similar experiment with Rayman Origins vs DKCR because, right now, I remember DKCR as the tightest platformer I've played.

I agree the motion stuff was annoying but I never found it to be a dealbreaker.

I've now made it further in Super Paper Mario than I did on my first attempt. From this vantage point, I'm not entirely sure why I quit before, because I'm really enjoying it.

I just wrapped up the third chapter (of eight), and I feel like the game's different mechanics are really all clicking into place. I remember being frustrated before that the game presented you with a variety of abilities but didn't make you use all of them, and that the 3D version of an area was often mostly empty space. Those two things did not hold true through the end of Chapter 3. There the designers force you to use all the abilities at your disposal in order to progress and made great use of the 3D space to expand the possibilities of play.

My favorite area was an underground corridor that in 2D perfectly mirrored level 1-2 in Super Mario Bros. down to the distribution of enemies and hidden power-ups. However, flipping the space into three dimensions reveals all manner of hidden pipes, coin blocks, and passages. It suggests that those things were always there, even back in 1988, but that Mario and the player simply weren't able to access them because they couldn't break free of the second dimension. It's a fun way to play with players' memories and expectations.

I'm still a little disappointed by the lack of real RPG mechanics as compared to its predecessor, but the levels are finally getting longer and tougher so that I'm really needing to think about items and use them appropriately. I can also tell that many of the items I'm picking up that seem somewhat lackluster are likely components for the game's cooking system, which I haven't really delved into yet.

I'm also disappointed that the new enemies introduced for this game are so ugly. I'm trying to avoid comparisons between this game and The Thousand-Year Door, but the latter's new enemies were a much better fit for the overall art style. The weird, blocky creatures in Super Paper Mario look really out of place alongside the traditional Mario Goombas and Koopa Troopers.

Still, so far, so good. I'm very glad I gave this game another chance and look forward to playing more of it.

I believe there is reason for the drastically different appearance of the enemies in this game. I cannot recall off the top of my head all of it, but it seemed to be one that worked. At the same time, though, I didn't realize it was all that different from anything else. I figured it was just part of the Paper Mario look.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

I'm also disappointed that the new enemies introduced for this game are so ugly. I'm trying to avoid comparisons between this game and The Thousand-Year Door, but the latter's new enemies were a much better fit for the overall art style. The weird, blocky creatures in Super Paper Mario look really out of place alongside the traditional Mario Goombas and Koopa Troopers.

Yes! This is actually why I stopped playing. Seemed so out of character for a Mario game. Seems shallow of me now, but looking at some video I'm still incredibly turned off by the new character designs.

The justification for them is that they're all inhabitants of another dimension. Super Paper Mario doesn't take place in the Mushroom Kingdom like the other Paper Mario games did, so the new characters were designed to reflect that. I wouldn't mind them not matching the classic Mario look a bit better if I didn't also think they were just plain ugly on their own.

Thinking about it more, there was one thing that did stand out as pretty negative in the segment I just played. The story has your Navi-like fairy kidnapped by an über-nerdy chameleon, and you have to venture into his castle in Bit Land, an 8-bit throwback, to rescue her. They make a lot of jokes about how nerdy the chameleon is; most of them are funny and light-hearted (like little droids whose job it is to remind him that the street date for the next issue of his favorite comic series is a few days away, but some of the jokes struck me as a bit mean-spirited. There are jokes made about nerds bitching on the internet about games being too short or too different from their predecessors, and there are a couple about people complaining about games they've never played but want to whine about anyway.

It felt like the writers were either being preemptively defensive about the direction Super Paper Mario took or else were responding to many of the criticisms leveled at The Thousand-Year Door. It felt a little vindictive to use part of your video game to respond to critics, especially when you're putting their words in the mouth of someone as unpleasant as the chameleon. I'm not sure that was the intention, but I was a little uncomfortable with the end result.

ccesarano wrote:

I believe there is reason for the drastically different appearance of the enemies in this game. I cannot recall off the top of my head all of it, but it seemed to be one that worked. At the same time, though, I didn't realize it was all that different from anything else. I figured it was just part of the Paper Mario look.

It has something to do with their world they're in. SPM is all about 2d vs. 3d and the characters, I believe, are made up of 2d shapes. So you get this:

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/uuWLw.jpg)

IMAGE(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Super-Paper-Mario-Screens-super-paper-mario-860543_640_360.jpg)

IMAGE(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Super-Paper-Mario-Screens-super-paper-mario-860538_608_480.jpg)

Versus this in The Thousand-Year Door:

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/lD7eT.jpg)

IMAGE(https://lh3.ggpht.com/-gN5B7EG7I0g/TsvNjswiJ6I/AAAAAAAAAYA/uafMRUBpdsE/s1600/Paper+Mario+The+Thousand+Year+Door+%2528USA%25294.jpg)

IMAGE(http://www.cubed3.com/staff/tempo88/papermario2new_april23.jpg)

garion333 wrote:

IMAGE(https://lh3.ggpht.com/-gN5B7EG7I0g/TsvNjswiJ6I/AAAAAAAAAYA/uafMRUBpdsE/s1600/Paper+Mario+The+Thousand+Year+Door+%2528USA%25294.jpg)

IMAGE(http://www.cubed3.com/staff/tempo88/papermario2new_april23.jpg)

Man, looking at these two images makes me want to get this game back out.

Minarchist wrote:

Man, looking at these two images makes me want to get this game back out.

I haven't played any of the Paper Mario games prior to SPM, but that art style has aged quite nicely.

Meh, I'm not bothered by the blocky characters. Maybe it's just a personal preference thing then.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Thinking about it more, there was one thing that did stand out as pretty negative in the segment I just played. The story has your Navi-like fairy kidnapped by an über-nerdy chameleon, and you have to venture into his castle in Bit Land, an 8-bit throwback, to rescue her. They make a lot of jokes about how nerdy the chameleon is; most of them are funny and light-hearted (like little droids whose job it is to remind him that the street date for the next issue of his favorite comic series is a few days away, but some of the jokes struck me as a bit mean-spirited. There are jokes made about nerds bitching on the internet about games being too short or too different from their predecessors, and there are a couple about people complaining about games they've never played but want to whine about anyway.

It felt like the writers were either being preemptively defensive about the direction Super Paper Mario took or else were responding to many of the criticisms leveled at The Thousand-Year Door. It felt a little vindictive to use part of your video game to respond to critics, especially when you're putting their words in the mouth of someone as unpleasant as the chameleon. I'm not sure that was the intention, but I was a little uncomfortable with the end result.

I'd be curious if this is an accurate translation or not. I imagine a lot of the jokes were changed during localization to fit a Western audience, and Super Paper Mario in particular seems to have had a localization team that assumed its target audience would be "hardcore" gamers familiar with "I AM ERROR" gags.

This sort of thing happens with localization quite often, and usually to varying degrees. A lot of humor may be based off of pop culture references, and pop culture changes depending on what country you're from. I've seen anime that has preserved the original gag (usually fan-subs, and then a note is included to explain it) and anime that has changed it to as close to an American equivalent as possible.

Even if it is mean-spirited, I've reached the point where I technically have to agree. I'm getting tired of bitching about how games or movies or whatnot didn't turn out the way I liked and thus hating them for it. That sort of dislike is exhausting for being so anti-productive. So the Chameleon making fun of that sort of behavior, prophetic if anything, doesn't at all bug me as I've been that person they're making fun of and have, quite simply, grown up.

It used to be that bitching about things changing and reminiscing about the good old days was reserved for the old man sitting on a porch. Now it's for the 15-30 something year old nerd sitting at a computer shouting his opinions onto the Internet as loudly as his fingers can mash the keyboard, demanding he be everyone's target demographic.

shoptroll wrote:

I haven't played any of the Paper Mario games prior to SPM, but that art style has aged quite nicely.

If we can make graphics even moar photorealistic, they'll age just as well as confidently stylized art!

Minarchist wrote:

Man, looking at these two images makes me want to get this game back out.

Any mention of Paper Mario always tempts me to fire up the only Mario RPG game that truly matters, Super Mario RPG.

Dyni wrote:
Minarchist wrote:

Man, looking at these two images makes me want to get this game back out.

Any mention of Paper Mario always tempts me to fire up the only Mario RPG game that truly matters, Super Mario RPG. :old:

I know right? People bitchin' that Super Paper Mario ain't no Thousand Year Door, but none of them are the SNES classic. Nothing beats that one.

I liked it a lot, but I still find 1,000 Year Door to be the far superior game. It was a much tighter, more cohesive experience. Thanks for automatically assuming that because I prefer a different game than you I clearly haven't played the classics, though.

ccesarano wrote:

I'd be curious if this is an accurate translation or not. I imagine a lot of the jokes were changed during localization to fit a Western audience, and Super Paper Mario in particular seems to have had a localization team that assumed its target audience would be "hardcore" gamers familiar with "I AM ERROR" gags.

Given the heavily otaku nature of the jokes about the chameleon, I'd guess a fair number of them were localized largely intact. If they were trying to target nerds and geeks in North America, they'd make different jokes, I think. Then again, it's all text, so who knows?

I have to say that one area where this game really shines is in its localization. You can tell that NOA put a lot of effort into it, because aside from the aforementioned otaku jokes, I'm not sure you would know this game was localized. That's really impressive for a text-heavy game like this one.

Even if it is mean-spirited, I've reached the point where I technically have to agree. I'm getting tired of bitching about how games or movies or whatnot didn't turn out the way I liked and thus hating them for it. That sort of dislike is exhausting for being so anti-productive. So the Chameleon making fun of that sort of behavior, prophetic if anything, doesn't at all bug me as I've been that person they're making fun of and have, quite simply, grown up.

I'm not saying I disagree with the criticism. I'm not at all a fan of the gauzy nostalgia that springs up seemingly overnight around virtually anything and the vehement opposition to change that pervades the geekier side of life. However, I don't like it when creators use their works as a chance to denigrate their critics. Artists are given a platform in their work, and I'm not comfortable with that platform being used as a means to mock those who disagree with them using broad, degrading straw men. It would have been far classier to just make jokes about the chameleon's obsessions with comic books and anime without bringing video games into it at all.

(Although that might mean we'd miss one of the best jokes in the game, where Princess Peach gets sucked into an anime dating sim with the chameleon. I loved that scene.)

Heh. I actually haven't played Super Mario RPG. That'll be one for the virtual console whenever I start playing those. I'd pay extra to play it on my 3DS.

Minarchist wrote:

Thanks for automatically assuming that because I prefer a different game than you I clearly haven't played the classics, though. :P

I've been here long enough to know better than that. I'm pretty sure you've played every RPG I've ever played and 100 others I've never heard of

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Heh. I actually haven't played Super Mario RPG. That'll be one for the virtual console whenever I start playing those. I'd pay extra to play it on my 3DS.

As would I.

Dyni wrote:
Minarchist wrote:

Thanks for automatically assuming that because I prefer a different game than you I clearly haven't played the classics, though. :P

I've been here long enough to know better than that. I'm pretty sure you've played every RPG I've ever played and 100 others I've never heard of ;)

This. Not to mention every RPG I've played you've likely invested 100 more hours into.

where Princess Peach gets sucked into an anime dating sim with the chameleon.

Oh man I forgot about that. You just shot me back to my College apartment living room, rolling with a couple of my roommates with laughter.

I haven't played all of them, now...

Since I'm a crazy person, I recently picked up Thousand Year Door and Trauma Center 2 for the Wii. I need to fill out the backlog some more.

JohnKillo wrote:

Since I'm a crazy person, I recently picked up Thousand Year Door and Trauma Center 2 for the Wii. I need to fill out the backlog some more.

If you like SRPGs then I recommend both Fire Emblem games.

In a nice coincidence, Art Style: Rotozoa, which was on my list of games to purchase, is currently a Club Nintendo reward. That's $6 I don't have to spend.

I'm a few more hours into Super Paper Mario (not much gaming time lately), and some of my earlier enthusiasm is starting to wane.

As I mentioned, the game really seemed to me to hit its stride near the end of Chapter 3. The 3D flipping was being used in interesting ways, and the variety of powers I'd picked up at that point were finally being put to use. I was ready to roll on into Chapter 4 to see how they evolved things from there.

And, frankly, Chapter 4 kinda stinks. It starts with potential: Mario ends up in outer space, flying on a fire-breathing octopus through some rudimentary SHMUP setups. It's a neat idea, but the controls for it are weird, especially if you flip into 3D, and the level design revolves mainly around navigating a rather dull series of portal mazes. You know the type: here's a room with three exit doors, which each take you to a room with a monster and two exit doors, and so forth. Nothing really interesting, and a lot of rote trial and error to progress.

Not helping that at all is that the writing got really weak. To this point, the writing has been pretty clever and has worked on multiple levels with jokes for younger and older audiences, gamers and non-gamers, all mixed together. Chapter 4 introduces the aforementioned fire-breathing octopus, who's supposed to be funny because he swaps out random words for "Squirtle!" It's a bit like randomly introducing the smurfs and then having them make a bunch of (literal) toilet jokes. He's grating and makes the whole chapter drag. Thankfully he leaves your party at the end.

Chapter 5, meanwhile, is a bit of a mixed bag so far. There's a new group of characters introduced who, like the squid, swap out random words for "brah" and "Crognon" or somesuch, and it's not any funnier or more endearing. There were, however, a couple of funny, Andy Kaufman-like meta-jokes that got me going.

Spoiler:

The first revolves around a character who wants to give you a secret code. Before he'll give it to you, though, he asks you to say "please" and a dialog box jumps up for you to literally type in the word "please". That made me giggle, because it's a funny thing to make the player literally type out an arbitrary request. However, right after you type it, he makes you type it again. And then again. And then three more times. With the second time, I was less amused; for the third, I was downright annoyed. But each time after that it got funnier and funnier.

The secret code you get is the next joke: it's the order in which to head-butt a sequence of three blocks. You were given a code earlier that was short and simple: left, right, middle. The new code? It's something like twenty steps long, and as the character tells you about it, it just keeps going and going and going...

Given your sense of humor, those jokes might not even seem like jokes to you, but they had me laughing.

Oddly enough, as soon as you said Chapter 4 was starting to drag I thought "I wonder if that's the chapter in space". I remember that section being a drag as well.

I don't really remember what Chapter 5 was, though...

Chapter 5 is the one with the cavemen.