Fabulous Final Fantasy Franchise Discussion Catch-all

More reasons to love the new CEO:

GamesBeat: What observations would you have about Japanese RPGs finding a home in the west? Why is that happening lately? Is it the particular games coming out? Is there are more global taste developing among gamers?

Masuda: Going back to the last generation of games, a lot of Japanese publishers were a bit too cautious about the Western style of gaming, or Western games in general. Because they were so conscious about that when creating their own games, that could have factored into those types of games not doing as well. But it’s very important for us to draw on the uniqueness of our creators, draw on their strength. By doing so we’ll be able to create more appealing games. Rather than copying what others are doing, we’re focusing on what our creators want to make, what they believe in. Those all factor into creating better products. In that sense, with Square Enix and our creators, we believe we’ll be able create more appealing RPGs. As you saw at our conference, we have a large variety of games in our lineup — in the West and in Japan as well. We have a great variety of interesting games. We believe we’re becoming a publisher with a very interesting position in the industry.

(Source)

This guy really gets it and gets why Square's in a very unique position in the industry, in my book.

GamesBeat: Will we ever see a new Final Fantasy Tactics?

Masuda: I apologize, but we can’t talk about any unannounced titles. It just launched on Android, though.

One can hope! But since they only ported recently to Android seems pretty low priority with so much IP to develop.

I love Final Fantasy and you guys and gals so much that this is my first favorited thread.

Bit off-topic, but thanks to the site overhaul, we can now have cool images for threads! I decided not to let my FF6 fanboyism win, and instead went with a very cool, very representative image of what the entire franchise is.

Suggestions and/or images are more than welcome!

I fully intend to shamelessly abuse my power and make the JRPG header Persona 3.

Which is to say, Vivi forever.

FF6 all the way. Kefka laughing at us all would be great.

If we can change header images, I say it should be a weekly rotation of Amano's logo. Or Vivi, whatever.

Stele wrote:

FF6 all the way. Kefka laughing at us all would be great.

It would be, but I am obligated to put my vote in for Miqo'te.

Miqo'te everywhere! IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/adsogw/Emotes/11-1.gif)

How about the silhouette of the adventurers standing around near the start of FF 1?

Mantid wrote:
Stele wrote:

FF6 all the way. Kefka laughing at us all would be great.

It would be, but I am obligated to put my vote in for Miqo'te.

Miqo'te everywhere! IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/adsogw/Emotes/11-1.gif)

I already see Miquo'te everywhere when I log into FFXIV. Catgirls and potatoes.

Make the banner Lightning just to annoy the FFXIII haters :p

It's fine as it is though.

You could always use an image from something like Dyssidia or Theatrhythm since that would capture several characters at once.

Is there an image of all the Final Fantasy watermarks?

Grenn wrote:

Is there an image of all the Final Fantasy watermarks?

I don't think that would fit in the space or you'd have to dramatically shrink all of them to fit.

EDIT: Gematsu has some details on that new World of Final Fantasy spin-off that was announced at E3. Looks like this is trying to draw in new players to the franchise (which I think is also what they're trying to with Record Keeper on mobile) and it sounds like Hamauzu is handling a lot of the musical duties although they haven't listed anyone as the lead composer.

kexx wrote:

Suggestions and/or images are more than welcome!

Can you put gifs up there?

IMAGE(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/837/064/c26.gif)

I think I found a pretty cool one, with all the roman numerals. Well, from the main series and single player at least. 11 and 14 aren't there. Couldn't find one with all of them, but I think it works nicely.

I do like the idea of rotating, though. Could be fun I guess.

kexx wrote:

I think I found a pretty cool one, with all the roman numerals. Well, from the main series and single player at least. 11 and 14 aren't there. Couldn't find one with all of them, but I think it works nicely.

Looks great!

kexx wrote:

I think I found a pretty cool one, with all the roman numerals. Well, from the main series and single player at least. 11 and 14 aren't there. Couldn't find one with all of them, but I think it works nicely.

I do like the idea of rotating, though. Could be fun I guess.

For sake of this thread, I think you made a good pick.

I was kinda hoping he'd put up a bunch of pictures and ask us to rank them.

So I've been thinking more about this remake business. I know battle system is a primary concern, and rightly so, but I've been pondering other things as well.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the graphics in the trailer will be the ones in the final game. This makes the tone of the game more serious. But of course, I'll also assume they will keep the light-hearted, quirkiness that many love. My concern is I believe that will result in a huge disconnect. Forget about the Honey Bee Inn scenario. There's a boat ride from Junon to Costa del Sol that the party infiltrates, dressed as Shinra Soldiers. I remember Red XIII dancing around, trying to keep balance on his two hind legs.

I just can't for the life of me, picture how that's gonna end up looking. And I doubt they'll try, so which is it, sacrifice a bit of quirk for the sake of the graphical representation? Or tone down the graphics and go a bit more "cartoony" in the hopes of retaining the same charming moments?

ClockworkHouse wrote:

I was kinda hoping he'd put up a bunch of pictures and ask us to rank them.

Swipe right on VI and IX, swipe left on VIII and XIII...

kexx wrote:

So I've been thinking more about this remake business. I know battle system is a primary concern, and rightly so, but I've been pondering other things as well.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the graphics in the trailer will be the ones in the final game. This makes the tone of the game more serious. But of course, I'll also assume they will keep the light-hearted, quirkiness that many love. My concern is I believe that will result in a huge disconnect. Forget about the Honey Bee Inn scenario. There's a boat ride from Junon to Costa del Sol that the party infiltrates, dressed as Shinra Soldiers. I remember Red XIII dancing around, trying to keep balance on his two hind legs.

I just can't for the life of me, picture how that's gonna end up looking. And I doubt they'll try, so which is it, sacrifice a bit of quirk for the sake of the graphical representation? Or tone down the graphics and go a bit more "cartoony" in the hopes of retaining the same charming moments?

I can't remember if it was here or in one of the many E3 threads, but I think that's a big problem they'll have to face. The Final Fantasy games of that era walked a fine line between being too serious and being too slapstick. They had a lot of jokes and slapstick physical humor, but they also had more serious things like space whales and killer clowns blowing up the world wanton death and apocalyptic destruction.

It's a kind of goofiness and slapstick sensibility that people probably associate most strongly with anime now, and it's absolutely fallen out of favor with modern gaming audiences. The goofy humor is okay for kids games but it needs to be a lot more self-aware and crude for adult games (and please, not so Japanese). Final Fantasy VII is in a particularly tough spot with that because it has a lot of that humor, but when people think of the game they mostly think of this:

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/KSvDDfY.jpg)

And this:

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/DxCPuW9.jpg)

It's remembered as a darker, more dour game than it was. Which isn't to say that it doesn't get dark but that that's not all it is. But gaming and Final Fantasy itself have moved on from that split. (One of the critiques I saw leveled at Bravely Default by both fans and critics was that it was too goofy, and it had too many jokes, for a game that was ultimately as dark and grisly as it is.)

A Final Fantasy VII remake has many, many of those elements that don't fit well with modern ideas of games and of Final Fantasy. I'm interested to see how they navigate them.

I can't help but think this is part of why they emphasized that this is a remake and not just a remaster. I'm expecting something along the lines of XIII, which had a bit of comic relief but overall stuck to the serious tone of the story.

Record Keeper is about to finish up it's FFIX event, which has made me want to go back and play that game again. Too many games, not enough time. Maybe I could find a way to store time, perhaps in some kind of bottle...

I'm still playing IX and loving it.

It's also a really good example of that lighthearted tone with some really dark stuff going on. Ten hours in, and I'm on my second city in ruins where survivors are debating whether or not to crush an enemy soldier's head with a rock. And in a couple hours, if I remember right, I'll be playing a mini-game where I'm some kind of land-dwelling octopus trying to sneak out of a cage.

Oh my goodness yes. I remember thinking all the sequences about Vivi and the Black Waltz's being very grim. And that's not even touching on all the other characters, who have horrible stories in one form or another.

When I consider how emotionally invested people could get in Toy Story 3, it makes me believe that even American audiences can accept a proper mixture of humor and serious, melancholy, dour, or what have you. The problem is, as Clock highlighted, there's a difference in how both cultures approach humor. Sometimes it is compatible, and in others it is not.

Red XIII on his hind legs wearing the enemy's outfit might not work out because, well, it's easier to laugh at that absurdity when the art is more abstract. I don't think that's going to work here. At the same time, I'm curious if the reveal that Red XIII, or "Nanaki", is only the equivalent of a teenager will work better because we'll only be able to see what looks (and theoretically sounds) like a full-grown tiger beast.

In the end, I imagine there will be a good deal of goofiness remaining (climbing into a vent from a bathroom to spy on Shinra brass), but FFVII's goofiness was a tad minimal in comparison. I mean, you have to buy into the goofiness at least a bit, otherwise you might as well toss Cait Sith off the Gold Saucer altogether.

kexx wrote:

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the graphics in the trailer will be the ones in the final game. This makes the tone of the game more serious. But of course, I'll also assume they will keep the light-hearted, quirkiness that many love. My concern is I believe that will result in a huge disconnect. Forget about the Honey Bee Inn scenario. There's a boat ride from Junon to Costa del Sol that the party infiltrates, dressed as Shinra Soldiers. I remember Red XIII dancing around, trying to keep balance on his two hind legs.

I just can't for the life of me, picture how that's gonna end up looking. And I doubt they'll try, so which is it, sacrifice a bit of quirk for the sake of the graphical representation?

I think Nomura's already said they're hoping to keep the light-hearted stuff, but I think they've also said they're aiming for a slightly darker tale? Either way, I would not be surprised if they end up taking a scalpel to the scenario and cutting a number of elements from the game, which I think will be interesting to see.

ccesarano wrote:

I mean, you have to buy into the goofiness at least a bit, otherwise you might as well toss Cait Sith off the Gold Saucer altogether.

Well a lot of that wasn't just VII but JRPGs in general in the mid to late 90's. Or at least Squaresoft's style at the time. Chrono Trigger (take a drink) had you running around with a talking Frog, and even some of the Squaresoft games we didn't get here like Romancing SaGa 3 which had esoteric characters like a recruitable snowman. Both those games were released two years prior to FFVII. If you look ahead 2 years after FFVII's release you've got the casts from Chrono Cross and Legend of Mana with some of the stock Squaresoft JRPG weirdness in tow. Probably the SaGa Frontiers as well but I didn't play those.

Also, a little thing called Final Fantasy IX in 2000.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

But gaming and Final Fantasy itself have moved on from that split.

Has it really though? FFXIV has incredibly dour story points involving innocent people dying and also some of the goofiest stuff I've ever seen in a game. FFXIII had some really dark things going on but also a baby chocobo living in Sazh's hair.

Demyx wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:

But gaming and Final Fantasy itself have moved on from that split.

Has it really though? FFXIV has incredibly dour story points involving innocent people dying and also some of the goofiest stuff I've ever seen in a game. FFXIII had some really dark things going on but also a baby chocobo living in Sazh's hair.

And that Frocobo is one of the many reasons I dislike that game. I agree though, that there is room for both the serious and goofiness. It's just a matter of finding the right balance, and I think Clocky nailed it. The comedy in these games is very anime oriented. I personally dislike that humor. And although many people cater to that, I think the majority doesn't.

Cue the Honey Bee Inn. With this level of graphics (and androgynous jokes aside), are we really expected to believe Cloud passes for a girl?

The entire contents of the Gold Saucer get a pass, because it's contained within that festive context. But other things just might not work with the tone they're going for. If you mess up Rufus' welcoming ceremony, you READ someone say, what the hell was that soldier doing?! Throw him a bomb! (or something to that effect). With voice acting? It'll be Tidus-laughing cringe worthy.

On an entirely separate note, let's bet: I say they remove they breathing air into the girl's lungs mini-game.

kexx wrote:

Cue the Honey Bee Inn. With this level of graphics (and androgynous jokes aside), are we really expected to believe Cloud passes for a girl?

If they make his design look relatively Asian, yes. Things may have changed since the early aughts, but last I checked in, androgyny wasn't exactly a taboo over in Japan. It was another form of beauty that was highly appreciated. Note that there is a difference between androgyny and the cross-dressing we see Cloud attempting in Final Fantasy VII, but the first time I heard the "It's a trap!" jokes were for Visual Kei bands and band members such as Gackt back when I was in high school.

I don't have time to do full academic research on it, but there's an interesting looking academic paper viewable here that looks to be very thorough, but is also from 1991 so misses out on the last twenty-plus years of pop culture, and a less-academic blog-ish post here detailing how the androgynous look is often an element implemented to appeal to female fans of music, anime and games over in Japan.

However, I wouldn't expect them to try and make Cloud pass off as a female 100%. If they're playing it for laughs, they're going to find ways to make the masculinity shine (for example, in the original game, when no one was looking, Cloud would ditch the demure posture and go right back to standing with arms and legs spread out).

The entire contents of the Gold Saucer get a pass, because it's contained within that festive context. But other things just might not work with the tone they're going for. If you mess up Rufus' welcoming ceremony, you READ someone say, what the hell was that soldier doing?! Throw him a bomb! (or something to that effect). With voice acting? It'll be Tidus-laughing cringe worthy.

On an entirely separate note, let's bet: I say they remove they breathing air into the girl's lungs mini-game.

I don't expect them to throw the baby out with the bath water. Like Shop, I'm actually curious if they'll make a variety of changes like removing some content or ditching the overworld for something more linear, but I don't think they'll eliminate most of the mini-games that I think helped make the game stand out at the time. My assumption as a middle-schooler was that Square had taken influence from working with Nintendo on Super Mario RPG, which was loaded with mini-games itself and helped provide a greater sense of variety. Don't know if this is true, but I think this sense of variety would still work in today's market. Would they keep the games in and just change how they work? Or would they remove them because the games were terrible to begin with?

So I can see them keeping all the Rufus stuff, but yes, ditching the CPR mini-game would probably be a good idea.

If there's anything I am excited for, it's how they improve the motorcycle and submarine mini games.

ccesarano wrote:

My assumption as a middle-schooler was that Square had taken influence from working with Nintendo on Super Mario RPG, which was loaded with mini-games itself and helped provide a greater sense of variety. Don't know if this is true, but I think this sense of variety would still work in today's market. Would they keep the games in and just change how they work? Or would they remove them because the games were terrible to begin with?

That was my assumption as well back in high school. However, I think our first taste of mini-games in Squaresoft RPGs actually started with Chrono Trigger (Millenial Fair, speeder bike race, poi drinking) which I think was largely informed by how FFVI had some sequences like multi-party segments and the opera scene to keep things interesting. FFVII is where they certainly went all out, and then dialed it back for FFVII and FFIX even though both of those games introduced CCG minigames (as was popular at the time).

I think the variety would work well today. "Open world" games can be pretty much broken down as a collection of minigames you're just doing repeatedly until the game is over. Some of the story events like the CPR sequence would probably be switch to proper QTEs (which didn't exist back in '97 or at least in the form we know them now), but I think the minigames in Gold Saucer can be salvaged without too much work. For example, they've already made an extended version of the bike chase game for mobile:

What's to stop them from updating the submarine game?

EDIT: Speaking of things they could change... Maybe it's just the fact that I've been listening to more of Hamauzu's OSTs at work lately, but I would not object to a Masashi Hamauzu led OST for the remake. Either original pieces or arrangements of Nobuo Uematsu's soundtrack, doesn't matter much to me but I think his style would fit FFVII really well.