Europa Universalis IV Catch-All

The huge influx of gold actually brought Spain to its knees and bankruptcy - the inflation in real estate prices etc. caused by so much new gold was not feasible. In EU3 you both got inflation from taking in too much gold from New World goldmines and were saddled with crippling Spanish bankruptcy events. Strange to hear that EU4 omits at least the effect on inflation.

You do get inflation from owning gold-producing provinces. I think the exploit is that you can get tons of gold in peace deals with NW nations without having to deal with inflation.

Edit- Gunnerhausered!

wanderingtaoist wrote:

The huge influx of gold actually brought Spain to its knees and bankruptcy - the inflation in real estate prices etc. caused by so much new gold was not feasible. In EU3 you both got inflation from taking in too much gold from New World goldmines and were saddled with crippling Spanish bankruptcy events. Strange to hear that EU4 omits at least the effect on inflation.

Yeah, the thing is you still get inflation from gold producing provinces over time. I think something along the lines of making a lump sum that is greater than twice your national income give inflation also seems to make sense. Of course then you'd just make your peace settlement for right below that threshold, but something like that. EU3 didn't have any mechanic around lump sum transfers giving inflation either, but it wasn't a problem there.

And yeah BadKen, it's a "feature" I've been taking advantage of also. I saw the AI getting some huge amounts of money out of them too, so I don't feel quite as bad.

I started a game as the Ming in China. The system for China seems cleaner than it was in EU3; the factions can be shifted slowly by using diplomatic points, and there are (so far) lots of events which also produce changes in relative standings. These are handled with good explanations, and sometimes dry humor. One event had the Emperor intervene in a spat between two factions, giving the usual three choices (one for each faction). So you expect to have to choose between the factions, again, like bickering children always running to their parents. But instead of the usual third faction choice, the third choice was "The Emperor Needs A Vacation", with a simple gain of Admin points as the government takes over decisions for a bit.

I took a cultural conversion goal as my first, and that's progressing. I've got around 46,000 troops available, with about 20,000 mobilized initially. I set up royal marriages with Dai Viet and a small border country west of Dai Viet that would look nice attached to my provinces.

After a few years, I received a casus bellum against one of Dai Viet's neighboring kingdoms, which was going on a tear through Cambodia and that region. So I assembled the troops, marched down, and started besieging provinces. I got through two while he was marshalling troops, but when he brought me to battle, I discovered that his tech was much better than mine. I was ahead in the war, luckily, so I took a White Peace and I'm slowly rebuilding my standing army.

So far, China feels like it's fleshed out, not a hacked-on system.

Oh and thanks for the update on the Ottomans, tboon! Looking like a pretty good start so far. I'm still deciding between Sweden and the Ottomans for my next game, so we shall see.

Do you have any thoughts about the Piety system for Muslim nations so far? Have you been trying to swing your focus East vs. West based on it?

Gunner, trying to. Essentially, eating Hungary/Poland to "bank" piety then withdrawing it by attacking the damn Mamluks. But there are a lot of events that increase or decrease piety such that it can be difficult to manage. I mean, if I am about to declare on the damn Mamluks and I get a -25 Piety event, I am not going to call off the war for that. So I cannot say that it is a 100% reliable guide but I am trying to manage it as best I can. The bonuses increased piety gives are quite nice.

wanderingtaoist wrote:

The huge influx of gold actually brought Spain to its knees and bankruptcy - the inflation in real estate prices etc. caused by so much new gold was not feasible. In EU3 you both got inflation from taking in too much gold from New World goldmines and were saddled with crippling Spanish bankruptcy events. Strange to hear that EU4 omits at least the effect on inflation.

IRL the silver from the New World flowed through the Philipines in the China trade because silver had a higher price in China (it was the main metal for specie there unlike Europe). It had a similar effect there that eventually help bring down the Ming and open the way for the Manchu takeover of China.

tboon wrote:

Gunner, trying to. Essentially, eating Hungary/Poland to "bank" piety then withdrawing it by attacking the damn Mamluks. But there are a lot of events that increase or decrease piety such that it can be difficult to manage. I mean, if I am about to declare on the damn Mamluks and I get a -25 Piety event, I am not going to call off the war for that. So I cannot say that it is a 100% reliable guide but I am trying to manage it as best I can. The bonuses increased piety gives are quite nice.

Piety is weird. Having 100 piety gives you nice bonuses in wartime and having -100 piety gives you a nice bonus to technology cost. Both bonuses are pretty good. To me it seems like where you don't want to be is right in the middle, but it seems like some of the events (and they happen often) are weighted to drive you to the middle by making the other choice cost you monarch points.

Also, are these piety events part of the base game or are they the "Muslim events" that are now DLC and were included with the Deluxe edition as part of the Star and Crescent pack?

The Continuing Adventures of Oman

I didn't get a lot of chances to play over the weekend but I did make a bit of progress on my game as Oman. I spent the first 10-15 years just coring up, building marketplaces and constables, and integrating Haasa while keeping a wary eye on the Mamluks. The game was pushing me to attack them by granting me claims on neighboring provinces. By themselves they would probably be a challenge. Unfortunately, they are also allied with the Timurids, so peace seemed like the much safer choice. I'm still small enough that it feels like one major mistake could almost destroy me. On the bright side, I was finally able to ally up with the Ottomans. Now I just need to wait and hope they get a mission to come after the Mamluks.

While I was waiting around it seemed like a good time to take over Adal once and for all. They are in the sub-saharan African tech group so it wasn't much of a war. Along with the help of my Ethiopian vassal, Adal was conquered relatively quickly, and then subjugated as a vassal.

Subjugation of Adal 1491
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/oFQMzHT.jpg)

Diplomatic view showing Haasa integrated, Ethiopia and Adal as vassals, my Ottoman allies, and my royal marriage (soon to be alliance) with Sind.
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/6TCAvSv.jpg)

As seen above, I next turned my focus to India and first acquired a royal marriage and then an alliance with the conveniently located Muslim nation of Sind in north-western India. I was hoping that this alliance would allow me to grab a foothold in India from which I could expand and eventually conquer the entire sub-continent.

It only took a couple of years before I had my opportunity. Sind was trying to fight off its neighbor, Kathawar. While the Sind did not call me into the war, I sent an envoy to force Kathawar to cease its aggression against my ally. Kathawar's response was a laugh and a "no". Their refusal to make peace with Sind triggered a war between me and both Kathawar and Vijayanagar. IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/G8oM6c6.jpg) IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/n6mxEUy.jpg)

I loaded up 8K men on cogs and set sail for nearby India with my two Carracks providing protection. After two years of sieging, Kathawar was conquered and annexed into the great Muslim state of Oman.
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/Kyuk2Qz.jpg)

Meanwhile, my Ottoman allies called upon me to assist in their great war against the Christians as they attempted to fight off Venice, the Knights, Switzerland, and Genoa. I of course agreed to join them in their war, but was unable to provide much assistance because of my relatively low military tech level compared to my Ottoman allies and their European foes. (By this point I was 1 mil tech level behind the Mamluks, 2 behind the Ottomans, and 3 behind most of the Europeans the Ottomans were fighting.) While I fought a quiet cold war against the Christians, I cored up in my new Indian provinces and started working to forge claims on my new Indian neighbor to the south, Mewar.

By 1507, the Ottoman war was thankfully over without my troops needing to participate so I launched a new war in India to claim a couple of the nicer provinces from Mewar. In less than a year my troops had accomplished their objective and annexed the provinces for the glory of Oman.
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/qOQT9Sv.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/Cx1MJNI.jpg)

In 1507, I also received both good and bad news about my menace to the north, The Mamluks. On the positive side, their alliance with the Timurids had crumbled. On the negative side, they were now in a coalition with Baluchistan and several of the smaller Indian nations against me. I've reached a point where my military is actually nominally a bit bigger than theirs, but their force limits and excess manpower still exceed mine by a fair bit, and they still have the technological edge. Their Indian allies don't worry me much except for the fact that it might necessitate a need to divide my troops across the Arabian Sea.

Oman looks like a fun one. Good luck with the Mamluks!

You guys are saying it wrong. It's "the damn Mamluks".

Gunner wrote:

I'm sure going totally nuts with a light ship strategy is the way to go for perfect min-maxing trade achievement. To me it seems like a bit of an exploit to go substantially over your force limit to take advantage of a mechanic like that in a single player game, but hey, everyone enjoys their games in different ways. I'd be quite interested to see how trade wars shake out in high level multiplayer games.

On the official forums, there are folks posting screenshots of trade income in the '000s due to having, well, '000s of light ships. o_O

Personally I'm reluctant to use this - not only is it an exploit, it's a rather dangerous exploit! Paradox is guaranteed to address this in a patch, and when that happens, I wouldn't want to be stuck with hundreds more ships than my force limit can support.

Sounds like they just need to add a bit (more?) of an exponential factor in the over-force limit monetary penalty.

Gunner wrote:

Sounds like they just need to add a bit (more?) of an exponential factor in the over-force limit monetary penalty.

I would like to see them add an attrition factor to your ships (even if they are in port maybe) if you go over the force limit (e.g., because your facilities wouldn't be able to support that many ships), but that would probably require extra code so probably too much work though (as opposed to just adjusting how much it costs to go over the force limit).

With that said, the trade system is amazing in how it melds success in trading to having an actual navy (something that was largely lacking from the previous EU incarnations - even the modded versions). The AI handling of their ships is also a pretty big improvement over previous iterations.

Minuses so far: France (as always) seems to be too powerful. Gaining cores in Europe seems too easy (along with culture converting) - e.g., if France has some of Spain, most of the low lands, and northern Italy I would expect them to collapse at some point. The events seem pretty weak - as England I got a minor stab hit during the 100-years war, nothing much happened during the protestant reformation, can't think of anything else that was event driven and momentous - I have had some pretty good wars though.

I've been reading Norman Davies "Vanished Kingdoms", and am most of the way through the account of the various domains related to Burgundy. (It's a very good book, by the way.) What strikes me is the complexity of the Holy Roman Empire, and how well CK2 (and probably EUIV) represents the actual complexity and relative stasis of this unwieldy consolidation.

Apparently, while the German crown was usually the first one claimed by prospective emperors, the whole edifice fluctuated between three main areas - Germany and it's surroundings; the Italian Peninsula; and West Francia, which of course became France. (Burgundy in it's various forms was usually in the middle, between Germany and France.) Some Emperors were active and claimed all three areas, traveling between them and managing things well, while others holed up in Sicily or some other family province, letting things fall apart a bit while their underlings fought between themselves. But the whole thing kept on chugging on for centuries, growing for a bit, then shrinking, rearranging itself internally, and occasionally uniting to fight off some threat (or to try to get the Pope under the Emperor's thumb again.)

I'm just amazed at the amount of research that Johann and the team put into these games. They've really balanced a number of disparate systems - China, the HRE, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, Pagan states, Islamic states, Japan, India, the American indigenes, even competing religions - something that the more I look at the mechanics of the history, they've really modeled in a decent way. In spite of all the flaws in these games, they are an amazing accomplishment in simulating the broad strokes of various cultures and their patterns of history and organization.

I just wanted to point that out. I remember trying the HRE and thinking what a headache it is to play as the Emperor (or the wannabe), and then after reading this history, it now makes a lot of sense to me. Very cool.

According to @producerjohan on Twitter, they plan to add 25 new national idea groups in the 1.2 update in late Sept.

So if you are interested in playing a country and they are one of the ones that currently have a generic idea group, it may be worth playing one of the more fully developed nations until they release the names of the countries getting the new groups. (So far I've seen Granada and Serbia mentioned as countries getting new ones.)

I can't wait to get back to my Oman game, but real life has been getting in the way.

Jasonofindy wrote:

According to @producerjohan on Twitter, they plan to add 25 new national idea groups in the 1.2 update in late Sept.

So if you are interested in playing a country and they are one of the ones that currently have a generic idea group, it may be worth playing one of the more fully developed nations until they release the names of the countries getting the new groups. (So far I've seen Granada and Serbia mentioned as countries getting new ones.)

I can't wait to get back to my Oman game, but real life has been getting in the way.

Very cool! Thanks for sharing. I know I have Sweden and the Ottomans up for my next two games, so that should keep me occupied for a good while.

A couple of questions for the knowledgeable folks.

After taking over a province, there is the option of 'harsh treatment' to reduce revolt risk while you are coring. Is there any disadvantage to this? The tooltip makes it look like a get out of jail free card, and I have to think there's something that I'm missing.

Second, is there any reason I would ever want to release a vassal? After I win a war, it's usually one of the choices. Is there a reason I don't want to be as big a possible? As long as I'm coring and not expanding too quickly, isn't it in my best interest to keep all of the provinces I win under my own command?

Still no clue what I'm doing with trade. I pick the biggest 2 nodes near me and plunk down my merchants and then protect trade for those nodes with a fleet of light ships. Once that's going, I never look at it again. I'm sure there must be more to it, but I have no idea how to min-max it, so I just set it and let it run. Oh, and I'll set rivals and embargo them to squeeze a little more out of the node.

DonD wrote:

A couple of questions for the knowledgeable folks.

After taking over a province, there is the option of 'harsh treatment' to reduce revolt risk while you are coring. Is there any disadvantage to this? The tooltip makes it look like a get out of jail free card, and I have to think there's something that I'm missing.

Harsh treatment costs MIL points, 5 * base tax, which I believe usually makes it 15 MIL. MIL points can be hard to come by, especially if you are doing lots of conquering. Also, I think it only lasts for 5 years. Harsh treatment can be handy as a stopgap but solving the underlying issues causing unrest is better in the long term.

DonD wrote:

Second, is there any reason I would ever want to release a vassal? After I win a war, it's usually one of the choices. Is there a reason I don't want to be as big a possible? As long as I'm coring and not expanding too quickly, isn't it in my best interest to keep all of the provinces I win under my own command?

Generally it is. However, over-extension penalties are pretty drastic, so eating as much as you can in a peace may not be the best option. Forcing a rival to release a vassal does a few things: a) vassals pay 50% of their taxes to the liege country, b) vassals are bound to respond to a liege country's wars so when you fight a country with vassals you have to fight the vassals too - forcing a release weakens the enemy further, c) (not sure about this but pretty sure it is true) a released vassal will view you positively and have a positive relation with you, and d) vassals can lead to annexation with little consequences, so by forcing a release you are at the bare minimum setting that process back to square one.

So basically, forcing a release drastically weakens an enemy but without the consequences of over-extension that annexation does. Not the answer a lot of the time but another tool in the ol' diplomatic toolbelt.

DonD wrote:

Still no clue what I'm doing with trade. I pick the biggest 2 nodes near me and plunk down my merchants and then protect trade for those nodes with a fleet of light ships. Once that's going, I never look at it again. I'm sure there must be more to it, but I have no idea how to min-max it, so I just set it and let it run. Oh, and I'll set rivals and embargo them to squeeze a little more out of the node.

I am still learning the intricacies of trade. It sounds like, if you are not interested in playing the trade game, you are doing all you really need to. But trade can be maximized by steering trade to nodes where you have lots of trade power and using merchants to extract gold from the flow of trade through a node. The longer a chain of nodes that you control (via having the most trade power n each node) the more gold you can extract at the end of it. I think of the trade routes as rivers. Some places you can have merchants stick a net into it and fish out gold for you. Other nodes you have merchants steer the gold toward the guys with the nets so there is more to be caught. This is probably a simplistic way to look at it and there is a lot of detail in the system. A good article describing trade is on the EU4 wiki.

/skim

Tried it yesterday (finally) for couple of hours, then just went home and bought it immediately. I wasn't expecting them to improve general gameplay so much, they really thought about the game flow and all design problems that EU3 had.
Only problem I have is that I started playing on version that had preorder DLC installed or something, and my version doesn't, so now achievements are disabled.

Go Poland!

Robear wrote:

I've been reading Norman Davies "Vanished Kingdoms"

Wanted to pick that up at some point, glad to hear it's good. It has Grand Duchy of Lithuania in it, right?

Also, I came here to mention that light ships seem like a good way to boost trade income, but I see that most of you already done the homework

You need to be playing Ironman and syncing to Steam Cloud in order for achievements to be active.

UCRC wrote:

Wanted to pick that up at some point, glad to hear it's good. It has Grand Duchy of Lithuania in it, right?

Yep, along with Aragon and several other interesting areas. The history of Alt Clud is essentially a history of the transition of Britain from the late 4th century through the formation of Scotland.

DonD wrote:

You need to be playing Ironman and syncing to Steam Cloud in order for achievements to be active.

But I'd have to start a new game, right?

UCRC wrote:
DonD wrote:

You need to be playing Ironman and syncing to Steam Cloud in order for achievements to be active.

But I'd have to start a new game, right?

Yes.

Oooo, Steam Cards enabled! Strange list to not have either Charles V or Phillip II, but I'll take it!

Talliarthe wrote:

With that said, the trade system is amazing in how it melds success in trading to having an actual navy (something that was largely lacking from the previous EU incarnations - even the modded versions). The AI handling of their ships is also a pretty big improvement over previous iterations.

Minuses so far: France (as always) seems to be too powerful.

Yeah, I love the trade system and the way it ties into the broader geopolitics. You want to establish naval bases so you can send out trade fleets, but then you need to fortify those bases, keep the main naval powers on side through diplomacy (or just ensure you can beat them if push comes to shove...), etc. Just about to break into Asia in my GB game, so hopefully that will add an extra layer of strategy above and beyond the race for the Americas!

Robear wrote:

I've been reading Norman Davies "Vanished Kingdoms", and am most of the way through the account of the various domains related to Burgundy. (It's a very good book, by the way.) What strikes me is the complexity of the Holy Roman Empire, and how well CK2 (and probably EUIV) represents the actual complexity and relative stasis of this unwieldy consolidation...

Cool information - thanks for sharing!

I bought it over the weekend and am really liking it.

I am playing as Thailand and have expanded quite a bit, encompassing most of South East Asia east of Vietnam. I am slowly working my way South and hope to get a hold of the Strait of Malacca trade node eventually. Infact, I just waged a successful war against the Muslim state that holds it, taking a part of their territory in the process.

Well not long after I get back, I am racked by multiple revolutions. Gah. I don't know what to do. Help? Please?

Maybe I'll try Thailand. As China, I lost a war, then lost the Mandate of Heaven. Pro-tip: Don't lose the Mandate of Heaven.

It is sorta like Ireland in CK2. You are surrounded by neighbors of about your size, so you are not under any immediate threat. Its only difference is that you have a trade node within your territory.

Robear wrote:

Maybe I'll try Thailand. As China, I lost a war, then lost the Mandate of Heaven. Pro-tip: Don't lose the Mandate of Heaven.

Speaking of which, are some of the other powerful triggered effects/modifiers from EU3 still in the game? I remember one where you had to control Constantinopole, Cairo, Jerusalem and Rome (or whatever the Patriarchates are, can't remember). Then there were some powerful ones connected with India trade.
I remember playing EU3 as Byzantine Empire, trying to collect as many of those as possible.

UCRC wrote:
Robear wrote:

Maybe I'll try Thailand. As China, I lost a war, then lost the Mandate of Heaven. Pro-tip: Don't lose the Mandate of Heaven.

Speaking of which, are some of the other powerful triggered effects/modifiers from EU3 still in the game? I remember one where you had to control Constantinopole, Cairo, Jerusalem and Rome (or whatever the Patriarchates are, can't remember). Then there were some powerful ones connected with India trade.
I remember playing EU3 as Byzantine Empire, trying to collect as many of those as possible.

One of the icons under the minimap brings up a list of triggered modifiers.