JRPG Catch-All

Good to know. Thanks!

SixteenBlue wrote:

What?? How would that be faster? If by "less expensive" they mean "you'll make more money after you spend the same amount of money" then OK, I guess. But seriously, that's a stupid idea.

There's a really popular idea in some gaming communities that if the English language option were removed from the release and made available as DLC that companies would discover that there's far less demand for them than is currently imagined. Basically, if they made English voices optional, they'd find out that no one really cared enough to buy them and so publishers could stop producing them and just translate the game as text, which is faster and less expensive.

It's more or less the same idea that gets kicked around when people complain about how long it takes to localize anime because they record English voice casts for everything. And it comes from the same place: a real failure to recognize that there's a market for these products that extends beyond the people who are willing to put up with subtitled Japanese. Personally, I love watching anime and playing games in Japanese where I can, but I don't believe for a second that I'm in the majority of the purchasing group for these products.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:

What?? How would that be faster? If by "less expensive" they mean "you'll make more money after you spend the same amount of money" then OK, I guess. But seriously, that's a stupid idea.

There's a really popular idea in some gaming communities that if the English language option were removed from the release and made available as DLC that companies would discover that there's far less demand for them than is currently imagined. Basically, if they made English voices optional, they'd find out that no one really cared enough to buy them and so publishers could stop producing them and just translate the game as text, which is faster and less expensive.

It's more or less the same idea that gets kicked around when people complain about how long it takes to localize anime because they record English voice casts for everything. And it comes from the same place: a real failure to recognize that there's a market for these products that extends beyond the people who are willing to put up with subtitled Japanese. Personally, I love watching anime and playing games in Japanese where I can, but I don't believe for a second that I'm in the majority of the purchasing group for these products.

Oh, just localizing as text. I was trying to figure out how they thought it would take less time to record voice tracks if it was DLC vs packed in.

Well I called Gamestop again today, I guess TLS was delayed again until tomorrow afternoon. Guess I'll pick it up on the way home from work.

I'm thinking I can play through this one rather quickly, being its a 20 hour game, then pick up Xenoblades again, and then.... we'll see.

Amazon finally sent me shipping notice last night. Amazingly, it's already out for delivery this morning. I love living 90 minutes away from a distro center.

I got about 1/2 an hour in on Last Story. It is fun and interesting enough that I will keep playing. Nothing else to really say.

I'm really looking forward to firing it up over the weekend! Mine is out for delivery today, and I've been impatient to take it for a whirl.

Very curious to try the online co-op and competitive MP once I get my head around The Last Story. There's DM/TDM and 6 player co-op where you team up with others to fight bosses from story mode. Reviews are mixed on it. Some say the combat is so strong that it makes for a nice additional value, other say it falls flat.

Death match is so played out and boring in shooters at this point. Why on earth did they add it to an RPG?

I like TDM

Wow, I phrased that first bit really poorly. (One of those days.)

I don't play much VS multiplayer myself, and on the rare occasion I do, I actually appreciate DM and TDM because they are simple to get into and let you focus on the mechanics of the game and the maps, without also having to learn a new game more. But everyone does those modes. They aren't interesting, and my impression of the industry / audience right now was that DM style modes are considered played out. Yeah, you have to have it, but you better have something interesting also. Passe is probably a better word than boring.

I still don't see why they would put it into an RPG. Maybe I don't understand the mechanics, but it seems phenomenally out of place in that space. Co-op against the bosses could be fun, but that still seems weird too.

Understandable positions, but this makes more sense if you think about it from the view of a Japanese developer. They are not very experienced with competitive games outside of fighting and puzzle games (for example, Final Fantasy XI had no PvP elements until over 4 years after its release). And shooters are not popular at all, so the mode itself isn't so ubiquitous there. Also, deathmatch is the simplest to pull off as you say, so they were probably keeping their ambitions reeled in a bit. It sounds odd, but I'm more than happy to give it a shot.

The co-op makes a load of sense to me, though. The game's combat is fully real-time and action oriented. The most popular Japanese games feature co-op (Monster Hunter, Pokemon), and RPGs there have a long history of co-op. Games like Secret of Mana and Final Fantasy VI.

Regarding shooters and DM/TDM: I'd believe the industry thinking that (because quite often devs simply don't include the modes), and the gaming intelligentsia, but the audience at large, not really. TDM makes up about 75% of the players online in the couple that I play/have played this year (MW3, Crysis 2, Homefront). I think the masses prefer the simplicity you mentioned.

Heya, not to be a huge goober, but Quintin Stone brought up my Kickstarter over in the Tabletop RPG Catch-All, and I saw this thread; so maybe for some folks this will be peanut butter to chocolate:

I'm releasing a Japanese *Tabletop* RPG from Japan in English, the biggest project of its kind to date (kind of a white whale; I planned on it taking about 3 years to finish, instead it took 7). It's already done, I'm just funding printing. Luckily, the Kickstarter just filled so it's going to happen. Not a beg-a-thon else I'd go all crazy with details, more of a "In case any of you used to or still play tabletop RPGs, you might dig it" thing.

http://t.co/XNNzHwzO

(personally? For J-CRPGs, I'm waiting for the next Whatever that Vanillaware puts out. (sucks that Dragon's Crown was pushed back, but then again that's more action than RPG) Everything they've released I've loved to death. Plus of course the Ryu-ga-Gotoku/Yakuza franchise)

Whoa, awesome, dude.

grobstein wrote:

Whoa, awesome, dude.

No sh*t. That's rad.

Diamond Sutra wrote:

Heya, not to be a huge goober, but Quintin Stone brought up my Kickstarter over in the Tabletop RPG Catch-All, and I saw this thread; so maybe for some folks this will be peanut butter to chocolate:

I'm releasing a Japanese *Tabletop* RPG from Japan in English, the biggest project of its kind to date (kind of a white whale; I planned on it taking about 3 years to finish, instead it took 7). It's already done, I'm just funding printing. Luckily, the Kickstarter just filled so it's going to happen. Not a beg-a-thon else I'd go all crazy with details, more of a "In case any of you used to or still play tabletop RPGs, you might dig it" thing.

http://t.co/XNNzHwzO

(personally? For J-CRPGs, I'm waiting for the next Whatever that Vanillaware puts out. (sucks that Dragon's Crown was pushed back, but then again that's more action than RPG) Everything they've released I've loved to death. Plus of course the Ryu-ga-Gotoku/Yakuza franchise)

Yeah, that bastard that stupid bastard posted about it in the Kickstarter thread too. Looks cool and I passed it along to some friends who'd probably be into it. Congrats on the full funding on day one. That's gotta take a lot of pressure off ya.

I've put about an hour in to The Last Story, enough to get most of the mechanics unlocked. It's pretty telling that people on the XSEED forum that Clocky mentioned dubbed the CC Pro input "motion-control free" when there aren't any friggin' motion controls in the game at all. Good going, internet.

I've messed around with both the default and CC Pro, with auto attack on and off for each. My first impression is that Wiimote with auto-attack is the most comfortable for me. There's no great feeling of agency lost from not having to jam the A button to attack, and there's enough going on in combat other than attacking to keep it engaging. It's essentially the difference between attacking in Dragon Age: Origins (auto) vs Dragon Age 2 (manual). A lot of the emphasis is on positioning and preparation. I need to play some more to determine whether or not I need direct camera control. The camera handles itself pretty well so far, from what I've seen.

It is funny though, like 3 of my top 5 Wii games have CC Pro only input options. SSBB, Mario Kart, Muramasa, while Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 have that stupid jump that should be a button. And of course NSMB Wii just screams for CC Pro control, except for those stupid platforms they put in that have you balancing the Wiimote. But to use wiimote only there's that one button that does dual-functions, so you accidentally pick up your teammates when you're trying to pickup other stuff, or something. I can't even remember what it was now, but I just remember being really annoyed with the controls.

Anyway maybe that's another reason people are excited about Xenoblade and Last Story. Finally we can just have games on the Wii and they don't have to have waggle replace a button for no logical reason.

Stele wrote:

Anyway maybe that's another reason people are excited about Xenoblade and Last Story. Finally we can just have games on the Wii and they don't have to have waggle replace a button for no logical reason. ;)

Games like that have been coming out since the first month of the system's life, so I don't really know what you mean.

I'm not making universal qualitative statements about the varying control schemes. Games using both methods can control wonderfully and terribly, with the entire spectrum in between covered. I just find it sad and ironic that these forum-goers chose to call the CC Pro method motion-free, when the Wii remote method is also motion-free.

I actually like how games like Super Paper Mario, NSMBWii and Metroid: Other M can simplify the game's control to just the Wiimote held sideways. I always felt it represented a greater versatility to the system. I wish more games took advantage of that, truth told.

ccesarano wrote:

I actually like how games like Super Paper Mario, NSMBWii and Metroid: Other M can simplify the game's control to just the Wiimote held sideways. I always felt it represented a greater versatility to the system. I wish more games took advantage of that, truth told.

Ditto. While there are games that senselessly fail to provide a classic control style option (Twilight Princess should honestly have had a "Gamecube input mode" using the classic controller as an option), I actually think that for the most part, Wii controls have been done pretty well. Skyward Sword's motion controls don't suck because they're motion controls; they just suck when the motion controls don't properly read my motions. When the motions read correctly, I actually like them for the most part (the stupid harp controls can suck my nose, however). Paper Mario's usage of the Wiimote was great.

It's also nice that there are more traditional-style games like jrpg's that allow you to use the cc pro and not worry about any Wiimote nonsense being pasted in for no reason.

What I don't like about NSMB Wii's controls is that Mario is about speed and precision and making me use motion for the floaty drill thing takes away from that. The platform movement with the Wiimote felt like a better use of the Wiimote than the other movement. I guess you could say it made more sense in the game world.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Since I'm the king of contrary opinions today (did you hear I don't like Super Mario World? :P) let me say that I actually love motion controls. Heart them to heart pieces.

I've played all the games you guys have mentioned and had zero problems with the motion controls in any of them.

Wait, scratch that. I wasn't fond of the flick-to-attack in Twilight Princess but loved the pointer controls for Link's items.

Speaking of which, Blind Evil, does the Wiimote control scheme for The Last Story use the pointer to aim? I know a lot of people classify that as "motion control." Also, any truth to the description of the game as "Final Fantasy meets Mass Effect"?

I got pages and pages of rants over in the Metroid Other M thread about how sh*tty those controls are. No need to recap here.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Speaking of which, Blind Evil, does the Wiimote control scheme for The Last Story use the pointer to aim? I know a lot of people classify that as "motion control." Also, any truth to the description of the game as "Final Fantasy meets Mass Effect"?

No, the aiming with the crossbow is handled with the analog stick, which is a complaint I forgot to mention.

I'm not sure what parts of each game people are claiming it apes, but if I had to pick two games it evokes:

1. The scope and aesthetic of Resonance of Fate. The world doesn't (yet?) seem so huge and sprawling as a Final Fantasy, and there's a good amount of hanging around the bar/HQ chatting up the rest of the mercenary crew. The character designs remind me a lot of RoF, but that's a pretty subjective thing.

2. The combat reminds me more of a simplified, sped up Dragon Age: Origins than Mass Effect. Most of the combats aren't simply "kill all the dudes" like in those two games, though. Well, I guess they are, but the methods to doing so are more varied than triggering your skills in the preferred order and shooting/attacking.

For example, during the intro you kill a mini-boss, and get wizard-slayer arrows for your crossbow. At the next major combat, a cutscene triggers, and the leader tells you there are two spellcasters toward the back of the pack that should be dealt with first, and that you should try to flank them and take them out with the crossbow, then have the rest of the team rush the remains. It then pops to an overhead shot of the field so you see where the spellcasters are located. Being that this was still in the tutorial, I suspect there'll be similar opportunities later, where you plan a fight before it starts but without being led around by the nose. There was another where you were being attacked by archers with regenerating health, and you had to order your mage to blow up the walkways they stood upon.

I don't know how I feel about the combat yet. It seems shallow at first blush but they keep introducing new scenarios with which to apply different skills. If they continue to throw fresh experiences in every fifteen minutes, I'd be very pleased.

Stele wrote:

I got pages and pages of rants over in the Metroid Other M thread about how sh*tty those controls are. No need to recap here. ;)

That's one game, and one where you had to switch between pointing and not. You could easily keep the pointer aimed at the screen the whole time here, so the issue that plagued Other M doesn't really apply. You were a fan of Goldeneye's pointer-controls, I thought?

Blind_Evil wrote:

You were a fan of Goldeneye's pointer-controls, I thought?

Yes, Goldeneye, Metroid Prime 3 (and trilogy re-release), and Resident Evil 4 all had great pointer controls. Even Call of Duty or something that I played at a friend's I think it was, had pointer controls. But for what seems like the 100th time in various Wii discussions we've had, pointer controls != motion controls. Waggle in Mario to do a spin jump when we all know a button works perfectly fine for spin jump (see SMW, NSMB DS, etc) is just stupid.

But that's what you were talking about with Other M, right? Pointer controls?

My friend who buys games but doesn't play them (long story) picked up The Last Story and lent it to me, so I'll be checking it out this weekend.

A quick question for those of you who have been paying attention to this one though: he got some special packaging and an art book with the game, but didn't know why. Is that a preorder thing, or do all copies come with that? That is to say, if I enjoy the game and decide to buy the game in a week or two will I be getting the extras too?

All first-run copies are the limited edition. Whether or not that means 10,000 copies or 100,000, I can't say.

Edit: Nevermind. JRPGs!