Civilization V Catch-All

A nuke is for devastating an enemy's economy and production, or for weakening their defensive units before taking and razing the city. I'd only use them before actually occupying if you need to take the city really quickly for some reason, or their defense is just too tough a nut to crack with conventional units.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

A nuke is for devastating an enemy's economy and production, or for weakening their defensive units before taking and razing the city. I'd only use them before actually occupying if you need to take the city really quickly for some reason, or their defense is just too tough a nut to crack with conventional units.

Not to mention that the sound it makes when you nuke a city is just oh so satisfying.

MacBrave wrote:

Got beat by Germany last night via a space race victory. Bismark got a continent pretty much to himself and that bastard seems to churn out cities like rabbits. By the time I discovered what he was up to my puny Persian empire was overmatched.

I had something similar happen, but with the Mongolians, which is about the worst Civ in the world to have build up unimpeded in your world.

By the time I'd discovered the other continent, they'd claimed it all, and unfortunately the rest of my continent was busy squabbling amongst themselves for the next millenia or so when the Mongolian Horde came sweeping across the ocean with Battleships and Carriers filled with Bombers. It was actually a surprisingly frightening sight to behold. We never stood a chance.

The benefits of having an island to yourself far outweigh the disadvantages, if you research astronomy soon enough. There's no tech trading anymore, so loneliness no longer equals falling behind.

I had the same issue in my game, where I had to fight off the Romans and the Koreans to gain dominance over my island, while the lonely Iroquois gained a tech advantage. I eked out a diplomatic victory by beelining to Global Dominance, speeding up the United Nations with a lucky Great Engineer and using my alliance with 12/14 City states to win the election. Kudos to the AI for switching from building spaceship parts to rigging elections and bribing CS as soon as I finished building the UN. My advantage over the CS's favor was too big, but in a closer game it could have turned the tide.

All in all, it's a fantastic expansion. It all feels more interesting, and more balanced. What I like especially:

City States
With multiple and more varied missions going on at once, and more variation in rewards the city states have become really fun and interesting. They turned the mechanic from something to throw excess money at into a real part of the gameplay.

New mechanics' integration
Because they didn't make the mistake of putting the new mechanics into the cities' basic build options this time, you are incentivised to actually use them. In Civ IV, when having to choose between building a spy or a howitzer, the howitzer would almost always be the better option. Same for missionaries or those corporation guys. By making spies available all the time and creating a new currency in faith you get to play with the new options instead of agonizing whether they're even worth the trouble. The religion options can be overwhelming at first, but they're much more subtly integrated than in Civ IV.

Diplomatic AI
No great strides in combat AI, Firaxis already incrementally improved it through patches. You'll always win with an even-matched army, but it's no longer a push-over.

The diplomatic AI is much more fun to play against though. If you crushed the opponent's army, they'll make a realistic peace offer this time. Instead of wanting a white peace with your army breathing down their neck, they'll offer a couple of cities and their resources.

This was my first game in which I never fought an offensive war, not even against a CS, and I actually befriended all 4 remaining nations. Haven't encountered the silly denouncement carousel either. I also had a good laugh when the Mayan apologized for spying on me, and our relations improved when I accepted them

I feel like the game has a much better flow now, and that the different options are actually useful in different scenarios. As opposed to being a silly bugger for not choosing the same path every time regardless of how your game is unfolding. Example: I always tried to complete social policy paths before opening a new one, to get to the extra bonus. But now that you can buy different Great People by unlocking another path, it became more attractive to mix it up.

tldr version: BUY THIS EXPANSION NOW IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY!

LarryC wrote:

BlackSheep:

Great Persons are usually generated first from the capital, but it isn't always best situated as the GP factory in CiV. That's a relic of cIV where you're more flexible about what you can do with a city. In CiV, you have to play it closer to the terrain.

A GP city in CiV is, in particular, very food and hammer-rich; with a strong emphasis on food. A riverside location with multiple Wheat resources is ideal (Granary adds +1 food per Wheat resource, Water Mill adds +2 more). Capitals don't always have this situation, since they are biased to have starts that favor having more hammer and/or gold resources, so they're often better suited to being Wonder sites, and/or Gold Cities.

The UI has a Resource Yield overlay that makes it easy to tell at a glance how much hammers, food, and gold can be produced from a prospective city site; and how much a current city is getting from its developed tiles.

You can often tell how a site will do just from how many green, brown, or yellow icons are on the undeveloped tiles.

I only say that the Captial is still a good GP factory because you usually have a good amount of wonders built up in it, which allows it to generate them more quickly.

Though you're right on one big account: What I'm describing is a big-time CivIV tactic; however, for those learning how to micromanage a civilization, it is usually a pretty good way to go at first. I've done things like forego production and focus on money and simply buy the items I need in cities, or forego much food in my capital and focus on keeping allies with the maritime city-states for my food necessities -- all of course, depending on what I've been dealt. I've usually found that my Capital is a bit of a jack of all trades that I can press into service as anything I need at any given time during the game and I generally focus my other cities accordingly though.

Choosing your proper social policies and faith enhancements will make or break your civ at levels King or higher in this, as well as really deciding on how you're going to finish the game off.

So where's the sweet spots for number of cities? If I remember, policies become more expensive after 3, so if I'm going for cultural victory, do I need to stop there, and raze any cities I might come across? What about for a science victory?

For me, it's been 4 for all the victory types I've tried: Science, Culture, and Diplomacy. But I don't raze anything, ever, so that might affect your experience (there's an article by me on the homepage now about that).

Thanks momgamer. I was curious if the science victory would require a ton of cities all pumping out science. Enjoyed the article as well.

Stilgar Black wrote:

Thanks momgamer. I was curious if the science victory would require a ton of cities all pumping out science. Enjoyed the article as well.

There are some little tweaks that seem to make small/tall civs more viable in G&K. You can still crank out more science with a massive empire, but it's not nearly as big a disparity as it used to be.

momgamer wrote:

For me, it's been 4 for all the victory types I've tried: Science, Culture, and Diplomacy. But I don't raze anything, ever, so that might affect your experience (there's an article by me on the homepage now about that).

I've really struggled figuring out how to even try to get the diplomatic victory post-expansion (I didn't really mess with it pre-expansion what with the absurdly inconsistent AI). I've found no way to abstain from the vote, and since you're REQUIRED to vote for another country and not yourself (unless I'm missing something blatant), you have to figure out how to keep your population low enough while generating enough science to get the UN and keeping enough other civs happy enough to vote for you.

Seems like, by far, the toughest victory condition in Civ V.

Farscry wrote:
momgamer wrote:

For me, it's been 4 for all the victory types I've tried: Science, Culture, and Diplomacy. But I don't raze anything, ever, so that might affect your experience (there's an article by me on the homepage now about that).

I've really struggled figuring out how to even try to get the diplomatic victory post-expansion (I didn't really mess with it pre-expansion what with the absurdly inconsistent AI). I've found no way to abstain from the vote, and since you're REQUIRED to vote for another country and not yourself (unless I'm missing something blatant), you have to figure out how to keep your population low enough while generating enough science to get the UN and keeping enough other civs happy enough to vote for you.

Seems like, by far, the toughest victory condition in Civ V.

It's partly the same as it ever was (i.e., go Patronage and buy City States) but diplomatic victory also can be derailed by spies which influence the City State votes. You can also be in trouble if a war-like Civ destroys a lot of City States early.

I read on CivFanatics that 8 is the sweet spot for Trade Route income.
That's a single-faceted sweet spot, so take it with a grain of salt.

gore wrote:
Farscry wrote:
momgamer wrote:

For me, it's been 4 for all the victory types I've tried: Science, Culture, and Diplomacy. But I don't raze anything, ever, so that might affect your experience (there's an article by me on the homepage now about that).

I've really struggled figuring out how to even try to get the diplomatic victory post-expansion (I didn't really mess with it pre-expansion what with the absurdly inconsistent AI). I've found no way to abstain from the vote, and since you're REQUIRED to vote for another country and not yourself (unless I'm missing something blatant), you have to figure out how to keep your population low enough while generating enough science to get the UN and keeping enough other civs happy enough to vote for you.

Seems like, by far, the toughest victory condition in Civ V.

It's partly the same as it ever was (i.e., go Patronage and buy City States) but diplomatic victory also can be derailed by spies which influence the City State votes. You can also be in trouble if a war-like Civ destroys a lot of City States early.

I didn't find it so hard, but it was mostly as a side-effect of my regular play. I built the UN on the way to a planned Science victory. But the first vote came down with me only needing one more, and just to see what happened I sucked up to a couple of the locals until the next election and took it that way.

It seems more and more that charging the Ages by pushing military tech seems to be a very useful all-purpose approach.

In the case of Diplomacy, moving through the ages faster gets you spies before everyone else, and more spies to protect yourself as you continue push forward faster than they do. Build (or if you have the cash - BUY) Constabularies and their upgrades as absolutely as soon as you can to cut down on tech-thieving by other civs or at least improve your chances at catching them in the act (that way they owe you when you "forgive" them, which can have a huge effect on their actions).

You don't need to go all in and ally with everyone, but invest cash and Wonder-building over the years keeping the City-states somewhat happy as you go. Patronage is nice to just keep things on an even simmer across the board (I tried adding Piety at the same time last night and that had some intriguing effects due to the way it spams culture, which lets you finish the other policies faster).

Then, when you get the CIA and The Great Firewall, move all your spies out to key city-states and really put them to work on rigging elections as you charge through the top of the tree towards the UN.

Oh, and after last night Ramses can die in a fire. I'm just saying.

Spies are assigned according to the technological era of the most advanced Civ. I have had spies granted to me before I was in Renaissance, because another Civ had entered Renaissance. This means that advancing eras first doesn't grant you more spies; it grants you the same. Arguably, this is asking for a tech steal from England, since they get an extra spy over and above that granted to everyone else.

Farscry:

Diplomatic Vic in CiV is different from previous Civs in that you don't really need the votes of any of the other major Civs. Each City State gets a vote. Gunning for Patronage full will allow you to more easily influence City States en masse to vote for you. This used to be the most boring way to win CiV; but the advent of Coups and Quests have made it a tad more interesting.

Money still gets you a long way there, though.

gore:

There's a tipping point. Of course, more population means more science, but the limiting factor for population in CiV is happiness. Technically, you can get more per-city happiness boosters than single-city boosters, but it's not a forgone thing. Smaller Civs have an easier time getting things like National College and Oxford University. They also climb easier down the Rationalism line, because they gain Policies faster.

My recent game where I had 7 cities as Theresa of Austria had me going harder down the science line than the one in which I straddled the world as Askia. I cranked out more science by leveraging more Research Agreements, Porcelain Tower, and lots of Great Scientist bulbs.

Both large and small Civs can go for science this time around, IMO.

BlackSheep:

Ah. The infamous Hammer Economy or Wonder Economy demonstrated by obsolete on CivFanatics. Most Wonders only generate one or two Great People Points in Civ V. They contribute only so long as you don't have Specialist Slots yet. Once you get those down, each Specialist contributes 3 GPP. If the Capital is a hammer-heavy Wonder factory, it'll get eclipsed once the slots start showing up; provided that a food-heavy city with a Garden and the works is set up for it.

My Capitals aren't nearly so flexible all the time. They usually major in hammers, food or gold, depending on the luxury resources. In one game, the capital was almost entirely unremarkable. My second city generally is as stellar as the capital or better, since I can situate it carefully and shepherd it closely. This is admittedly more finicky builder-type strategy. For most gamers, a Wonder-spamming Capital will be a major GPP producer.

Wouldn't your game size and number of opponents be a factor in sweet spot for # of cities? Anyway, sort of on topic, this question reminds me of a "game mode" I like to play sometimes.

Three City Challenge I quite like the one city challenge mode, but sometimes it gets frustrating. So I play normal civ with a self imposed limited of 3 cities. It's a fun little tweak I find. The toughest part is of course obeying your own rule and not ever having a 4th city. Playing with a fixed limit like 3 though can help illustrate how a smaller city # can work. And also show what challenges it creates.

I think 4 is the specified limit for small Civs to maximize the "free culture buildings" policy you get in the Tradition line. If you play it right, you can use that policy to score yourself 4 Siamese Wats. I would guess that the actual limit would fluctuate based on how many cities get free buildings in the Trad line based on size.

Hi, I've been trying to get into Civ recently for the first time, and I'm really enjoying it. Run into some issues with trying to get three of us playing on the same map though. It seems to get stuck after about 10 turns or so and just say 'waiting for other players'. If someone drops out then it all comes back to life?

Playing through Steam, just the base game at the moment. Are there any settings or advice people can give to try and help smooth it out? Many thanks!

Hey has anyone release a good full conversion mod similar to what Kael and his team did for Civ IV?

Cayne wrote:

Hey has anyone release a good full conversion mod similar to what Kael and his team did for Civ IV?

Unfortunately until they release the long-promised "DLL" source, modding of that type is pretty limited.

They still haven't released the source code yet? I haven't kept up with the Civ 5 modding scene like with 3 and 4, but that is really disappointing to hear. My first experiences with programming were of messing around with Python scripts and flailing about with Visual Studio 2005 for Civ 4. Great times.

Maybe they'll release soon since the first expansion is out?

Getting the National College appears to be key in getting lots of science. It adds both a base +3 science to the city, and increases the city science output with a final +50% multiplier, making it as effective as the end game Research Lab; and their effects stack.

A powerful combo along these lines is early settled GS + growth boosting + National College, usually in the capital because it gets the best growth boosting game-long from Tradition Policies and Maritime City States.

On Standard, a 12 population capital with a Library will yield 18 science. The same capital with a settled GS and a National College will yield 43. The +25 science difference easily exceeds the contributions of 2 additional size 7 cities with libraries. The centralized multiplicative effect means that, at least in the early game, each citizen in the National College city is worth 1.5 times as much as citizens in other cities, science-wise; twice as valuable than the same population in nascent cities that don't have libraries yet.

In comparison, I consider the NC as a more powerful science wonder, medium and long term, than the Great Library.

One of my few complaints is that the tech tree doesn't seem to matter a whole lot in this game. I'm sure that removing tech trading made it harder to abuse the AI in trades but it also seems to have made the tech tree more flat. I'm not inclined to specialize and plunge down one part of the tree quickly to take advantage of a particular tech/wonder/building/unit the way I would in Civ4.
I'm sure there are a few crucial techs that I haven't figured out just yet, but in the 8 or 9 games I've played science has never been a limiting factor - it's always hammers and/or gold.

Long Playthrough Recap
Just completed my first full game as Kamehameha (Polynesia). (Terra, Standard, Normal difficulty, 6 civs/12 city states).
I started out in a desert with tons of incense around and found Mt. Sinai close enough that I could put my second city there and got on the Faith train early, and picked up the +faith from desert tiles pantheon. I was determined to keep my empire small and to try and play a peaceful game. This was probably the 8th or 9th I'd started but I usually get derailed somewhere after banking because I've got a huge head, I'm picking up steam, but I've got a huge empire to run so every turn becomes a slog.

I noticed that keeping a small empire meant it was a lot easier to build national wonders (or whatever the civ5 equivalent is called), and I figured it would be a lot easier to manage a smaller empire. I was merrily chugging along the faith train (founded the first religion and named it the vaguely Hawaiian-sounding Ma'ai). Things were going well, friendship was being among many civs, and I was doing well diplomatically with the city states.

Then Alexander decided to piss everyone off. He was denounced by 3 of the other 4 civs and I was asked if I wanted to join in a war with him. I politely declined as it was against my peaceful island loving ways. Then Alexander declared war on my 4th city, a border town that wasn't even defended. He brought 6 units - hoplites, archers, and even a catapult. I managed to push him out and bribed other civs into war with him. I figured the continent would unify behind me since Alexander had already been a bully and been denounced by many, and Spain, Austria, and the Maya all seemed to have my back. I also figured that I'd have a shot at religious unification as I'd founded the first religion and used my first great prophet to spread it quickly.

So after I took out Alexander (with only token help from the others) I was prepared to settle back for a peaceful diplomatic/scientific or maybe even cultural victory. However just as the war wrapped up, Boudicca declared war on me saying essentially "I know I don't have much shot at beating you, but I'm a crazy warrior queen! Xena warrior cry!"

The rest of the continent divided into squabbling. The makeshift alliance broke down as other religions were founded. And I apparently got a reputation as a tyrant and a warmonger because of my wars of self-defense against Alexander and Boudicca. (Although it wasn't really self-defense anymore when I took their capitals and wiped them off the map.)

At that point I'd wiped out 2 of the 5 other civs, and I had a decent (but small) army. My favorite units? I managed to get 2 Composite Bowmen with Drill 2, Cover, and March. Oh, and one of them had started life as a scout, so he got to ignore terrain movement costs too! Lots of fun, especially with a medic and great general nearby.

I was still contemplating a peaceful victory when Austria took out Spain, and then Austria + Maya declared war on me for my tyrannical ways. Somehow the Maya hardly built any units at all - the most aggressive thing they did was send a great prophet to my capital and converted it to a different religion.

It only took a small build up of my army to beat Austria + Maya. I got to some crippling levels of unhappiness (topped out at -23) but even that didn't really slow me down.

Looking at the end-game statistics, Alexander declared war on me somewhere around turn 135 and I ended the game by taking Vienna on turn 202. I started with practically no army when he declared war on me - I had sent my first Maori warrior exploring across the ocean right away, and he was still fighting barbarians on a distant continent when I was wrapping up the end-game war around 1050 AD.

It feels good to actually finish a game - even though I didn't manage to keep my empire very small, nor did I get to play the peaceful game I'd envisaged or really get to play with religion. I was cranking out a TON of faith -nearly 60/turn by the end - between desert tiles, Mt. Sinai, and incense giving + faith (from founding a religion) and a settled great prophet, but I didn't have much to spend it on besides Pagoda for extra happiness.

I like the way the new armies work - I like the 100 hit point system, ranged attacks, and the relative ease with with you can buy units and upgrade units with gold. Gold is a really viable resource in Civ5, unlike Civ4 where buying and upgrading units with gold was either impossible early on, or a practical impossibility. In Civ5 you can aggressively pursue a gold-as-manufacturing strategy and build a strong army that way - but it feels like a real trade-off wherever you decide to invest your gold (in infrastructure, diplomacy, buying tiles, or buying an army).

In any case I'm already looking forward to the next game. Who knows, maybe I'll actually manage to limit myself to 4 cities!

LarryC wrote:

Getting the National College appears to be key in getting lots of science. It adds both a base +3 science to the city, and increases the city science output with a final +50% multiplier, making it as effective as the end game Research Lab; and their effects stack.

...

In comparison, I consider the NC as a more powerful science wonder, medium and long term, than the Great Library.

Also keep in mind that the National College is a National Wonder, and as such each Civ can have one of them. You're not competing with anyone else for it. The Great Library is a World Wonder, so if you want it, you have to get it right away or risk losing it, whereas you can hold off on the NC for a little bit if there's something else pressing that you need to research first.

Taking a civilization's last city gives a big hit to your reputation that never seems to go away.

Steam says I have something like 180 hours in Civ 5 I think. I finally one my first game yesterday, a domination victory as Washington on Prince, with a few years to spare. I decided I would work through all of the civs, trying to achieve a victory for the achievement, and Washington is listed first on the achievements. It look me far too many games to realize that beelining to to the B17 was almost like hitting the win button ... but so satisfying.

absurddoctor wrote:

Taking a civilization's last city gives a big hit to your reputation that never seems to go away.

Yes, they really hate it when you do that.

Scaphism wrote:

One of my few complaints is that the tech tree doesn't seem to matter a whole lot in this game. I'm sure that removing tech trading made it harder to abuse the AI in trades but it also seems to have made the tech tree more flat. I'm not inclined to specialize and plunge down one part of the tree quickly to take advantage of a particular tech/wonder/building/unit the way I would in Civ4.
I'm sure there are a few crucial techs that I haven't figured out just yet, but in the 8 or 9 games I've played science has never been a limiting factor - it's always hammers and/or gold.

You might check out the NiGHTS mod. It makes the tech tree more like Civ4's with real branches etc. There is also a "cultural revolution" mechanic that makes wonders a lot more important. Overall I like it but it takes a while to get used to it.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
absurddoctor wrote:

Taking a civilization's last city gives a big hit to your reputation that never seems to go away.

Yes, they really hate it when you do that.

Maybe that's why I've seen the AI on multiple occasions leave one last city when they are at war with each other.

I'm loving the religion mechanic. I'm just screwing around on easy to play with it and get the wonders and try out new Civ UAs like Hiawatha's forests as roads ability. Quitting as soon as I can see that I will win rather than slogging through actually building up an army to take out mean old Suleiman.

I was trying to find where to select or download the Tectonic map script but it's not showing up on the steam mod downloaded thingummy or in my available map types. Where do they hide that stuff?

absurdoctor:

Taking cities in general is considered aggressive behavior by the AI. Especially so if it's the last or the capital.

I try to avoid doing that when I want AI friends. Even as a warmonger, handling the diplomacy part just right makes the other parts of the game easier.

LarryC wrote:

absurdoctor:

Taking cities in general is considered aggressive behavior by the AI. Especially so if it's the last or the capital.

I try to avoid doing that when I want AI friends. Even as a warmonger, handling the diplomacy part just right makes the other parts of the game easier.

Oh yeah, I know. I probably should have quoted Scaphism, (and he may have already known this), but I was trying to point out why a peaceful victory would have been somewhat challenging after wiping out two other civs.